1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Benny Morris is usually quoted when such claims are made.

I didn't quote him.

munchester29 wrote: »

If you read what Benny Morris wrote, you will see that everyone thought the Palestinians in Israel were too weak to fight the Jews by themselves. That’s why the rest of the Arab countries joined the party, which made Israel the inferior side in that war:

If you look at Illan Pappes work he comes to different conclusion. The Arabs forces were a mess, and this is why they lost.

munchester29 wrote: »

"Summarizing the military assessments of the British, Jewish Agency and the Arabs, historian Benny Morris writes, "all observers—Jewish, British, Palestinian Arab, and external Arab—agreed on the eve of the war that the Palestinians were incapable of beating the Zionists or of withstanding Zionist assault. The Palestinians were simply too weak."

Yes, the Palestinians were clearly too weak. The Arab force were not much better. In fact the only forces that were anyway capable on the Arab side were Jordanian Bedouin forces.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

so if its no diversion at all how come you wont answer it ?

Because I dont know, no-one does yet. Israel made such a mess it will be months before all the bodies are pulled out of the rubble.

But the point is we know some women and children were evicerated by this chemical, one the brave men of the IDF denied using.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

I've already explained the reality in that regard before in this thread.
Such generalization is good for propaganda – nice and catchy, but in real life there are many factors, many considerations, many international laws which can be interpreted in many ways by many people and many other fine subtleties which help make life on earth the fine mess it is today.

International law is not propaganda. The ICC had a ruling on it, it was mentioned several times here. They know international law better than anyone here. So your accusation of propaganda is laughable.

You have not addressed anything, just insisted that the ICC are wrong. You can talk about "subtleties" etc, they don't change international law in anyway shape or form. The reality is that Israel is violating International law. You insisting otherwise does not change this.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

I've already explained the reality in that regard before in this thread.
Such generalization is good for propaganda – nice and catchy, but in real life there are many factors, many considerations, many international laws which can be interpreted in many ways by many people and many other fine subtleties which help make life on earth the fine mess it is today.

This is a pathetic defence of illegal settlements and what you have argued amounts to propaganda. There is one simple factor, one simple reason for the problems and that is Israel's intransigence and unwillingness to behave like a civilised nation.

IRISH RAIL

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Because I dont know, no-one does yet. Israel made such a mess it will be months before all the bodies are pulled out of the rubble.

But the point is we know some women and children were evicerated by this chemical, one the brave men of the IDF denied using.

do you see the contradiction in that post.
you dont know but we do what is it going to be ?

munchester29

wes wrote: »

International law is not propaganda. The ICC had a ruling on it, it was mentioned several times here. They know international law better than anyone here. So your accusation of propaganda is laughable.

You have not addressed anything, just insisted that the ICC are wrong. You can talk about "subtleties" etc, they don't change international law in anyway shape or form.

You probably mean the ICJ, and that ruling was in regards to the wall specifically, and I've commented about that ruling also on this thread before. To this day, no legally binding decision or resolution was ever made against Israel.
If you ever watched a law based TV show, you will know that the law can be interpreted in many ways, it can be bent, it can be changed, it can be updated, it can be abolished, it can be manipulated.

Now I know you won't like what they say, but if you are interested in some of the Israeli legal claims:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal%20Issues%20and%20Rulings/ISRAEL-S%20SETTLEMENTS%20-%20CONFORMITY%20WITH%20INTERNATION

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

This is a pathetic defence of illegal settlements and what you have argued amounts to propaganda. There is one simple factor, one simple reason for the problems and that is Israel's intransigence and unwillingness to behave like a civilised nation.

You mean, stand still while they are being killed?

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

do you see the contradiction in that post.
you dont know but we do what is it going to be ?

I appreciate English is not your first language, but that post makes no sense.

There is no contradiction whatsoever in my post.

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

You mean, stand still while they are being killed?

who are being killed?

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

You probably mean the ICJ, and that ruling was in regards to the wall specifically, and I've commented about that ruling also on this thread before. To this day, no legally binding decision or resolution was ever made against Israel.

They said there illegal. They know the law better than you or me.

munchester29 wrote: »

If you ever watched a law based TV show, you will know that the law can be interpreted in many ways, it can be bent, it can be changed, it can be updated, it can be abolished, it can be manipulated.

You actually using TV as an example? I watch plenty of law based TV shows and I know there fiction that play fast and loose with reality. I have enough common sense to know that they are TV shows.

Again nothing you have said changes the fact that Israel colonies are illegal.

munchester29 wrote: »

Now I know you won't like what they say, but if you are interested in some of the Israeli legal claims:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal%20Issues%20and%20Rulings/ISRAEL-S%20SETTLEMENTS%20-%20CONFORMITY%20WITH%20INTERNATION

Wouldn't be the first time a thief has claimed innocence. As I said before Israel claims have no bearing on what the ICJ has said, and they know more about International law than anyone.

IRISH RAIL

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I appreciate English is not your first language, but that post makes no sense.

There is no contradiction whatsoever in my post.

you say you do not know how many were killed and no one knows

then you say in the same breath
we know some women and children were evicerated by this chemical

that is the contradiction,

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

you say you do not know how many were killed and no one knows

then you say in the same breath
we know some women and children were evicerated by this chemical

that is the contradiction,

No it isn't.

Some were killed by it. The exact number isn't know, as the place is a mess and not all bodies have been found yet.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

They said there illegal. They know the law better than you or me.



You actually using TV as an example? I watch plenty of law based TV shows and I know there fiction that play fast and loose with reality. I have enough common sense to know that they are TV shows.

Again nothing you have said changes the fact that Israel colonies are illegal.



Wouldn't be the first time a thief has claimed innocence. As I said before Israel claims have no bearing on what the ICJ has said, and they know more about International law than anyone.

Well, the fact is:

"Israel has agreed to negotiate the future of the settlements in the permanent status negotiations with the Palestinians. Until then, the two sides have agreed that settlements in the areas are to remain unaffected and under exclusive Israeli authority. The Israel-PLO agreements do not place any restrictions on the continued building or expansion of settlements."

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

You mean, stand still while they are being killed?

I mean stop carrying out 95% of the terrorism while proclaiming themselves as fighting terrorism and stop behaving sadistically towards Palestinians whose land Israel stole in the first place.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, the fact is:

"Israel has agreed to negotiate the future of the settlements in the permanent status negotiations with the Palestinians. Until then, the two sides have agreed that settlements in the areas are to remain unaffected and under exclusive Israeli authority. The Israel-PLO agreements do not place any restrictions on the continued building or expansion of settlements."

You're copying and pasting spiel directly from the Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry and using it instead of debate now?

I'm off to find some Hamas statements and I'll use them as fact, I trust you or others won't mind me using these.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, the fact is:

"Israel has agreed to negotiate the future of the settlements in the permanent status negotiations with the Palestinians. Until then, the two sides have agreed that settlements in the areas are to remain unaffected and under exclusive Israeli authority. The Israel-PLO agreements do not place any restrictions on the continued building or expansion of settlements."

Doesn't change that they are illegal under international law, which is what I have said repeatedly.

Also, I would take the claims from Israel with a pinch of salt and would expect some kind of independent clarification, as Israel is known to lie when they want to. As it stands, I have no reason to believe what is quoted above is true and even if it was, it doesn't change international law. Also, you quoting Israels foreign affairs ministry, after accusing me of propaganda is pretty damn funny.

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

No it isn't.

Some were killed by it. The exact number isn't know, as the place is a mess and not all bodies have been found yet.

so my question still stands does anyone have any figures for the number of civvilians killed by wp

the answer apperes to be no

then the statement cant be backed up with any evidence except hearsay and generalisations.

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I mean stop carrying out 95% of the terrorism while proclaiming themselves as fighting terrorism and stop behaving sadistically towards Palestinians whose land Israel stole in the first place.

But they are not doing all these things. The Israelis are defending themselves from the genocidal Palestinians:(

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

You're copying and pasting spiel directly from the Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry and using it instead of debate now?

I'm off to find some Hamas statements and I'll use them as fact, I trust you or others won't mind me using these.

Or better yet - prove me wrong.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

Doesn't change that they are illegal under international law, which is what I have said repeatedly.

Also, I would take the claims from Israel with a pinch of salt and would expect some kind of independent clarification, as Israel is known to lie when they want to. As it stands, I have no reason to believe what is quoted above is true and even if it was, it doesn't change international law. Also, you quoting Israels foreign affairs ministry, after accusing me of propaganda is pretty damn funny.

The Israel/PLO agreements are out there for anyone who wants to prove me wrong.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

so my question still stands does anyone have any figures for the number of civvilians killed by wp

the answer apperes to be no

then the statement cant be backed up with any evidence except hearsay and generalisations.

We know people have been killed. This can be backed up and has been earlier.

The exact number can't be given until the rubble is cleared. If a exact number was given, then it would be hearsay.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

The Israel/PLO agreements are out there for anyone who wants to prove me wrong.

You have been proven wrong earlier in the thread. Anyway, my point still stands. Israels colonies illegal under international law according to the ICJ, who know more about international law than anyone here.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

so my question still stands does anyone have any figures for the number of civvilians killed by wp

the answer apperes to be no

then the statement cant be backed up with any evidence except hearsay and generalisations.

so until an exact number of deaths from this chemical can be produced, no-one was killed by it. Of course, when a number is produced, it will be objected to, and still no-one will have died.

I used to talk to my father like that when I was 14

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

We know people have been killed. This can be backed up and has been earlier.

The exact number can't be given until the rubble is cleared. If a exact number was given, then it would be hearsay.

yes people have been killed if it was by wp is another allegation as there is no figures no evidence and no independant investigation.

the exact number so far can be given and a total number at a later date so far I have yet to see any such direct evidence or figures.

maybe in a few months come back and make that statement again but bring some facts .

IRISH RAIL

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

so until an exact number of deaths from this chemical can be produced, no-one was killed by it. Of course, when a number is produced, it will be objected to, and still no-one will have died.

I used to talk to my father like that when I was 14

if you make a claim be prepared to back it up.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

yes people have been killed if it was by wp is another allegation as there is no figures no evidence and no independant investigation.

People have been killed, we have plenty of media reports for this. They have been posted earlier.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

the exact number so far can be given and a total number at a later date so far I have yet to see any such direct evidence or figures.

The figures will come after the investigations have been done.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

maybe in a few months come back and make that statement again but bring some facts .

The facts have been presented earlier in the thread.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

yes people have been killed if it was by wp is another allegation as there is no figures no evidence and no independant investigation.

the exact number so far can be given and a total number at a later date so far I have yet to see any such direct evidence or figures.

maybe in a few months come back and make that statement again but bring some facts .

there is evidence and independent verification. how much more independent can the UN be?

the issue here is not whether 10, 100 or 1000 civilians died as a result of the use of this chemical. its that the IDF initially lied about using it. So what else did they lie about? depelted uranium? targetting children? why they were there?

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

But they are not doing all these things. The Israelis are defending themselves from the genocidal Palestinians:(

They clearly are, they have murdered hundreds of women and children and destroyed a massive amount of infrastructure in Gaza, no doubt designed not to target Hamas but to collectively punish Palestinians and set their standard of living back as far as possible. It's the criminal behaviour of an out-of-control terrorist state and it's starting again today. If anybody is behaving genocidally it is Israel. But your opinions of Palestinians as "genocidal" tallies in well with what I understand many Israeli's of Palestinians to be; untermenschen. Israel's actions are also cowardly, if such drastic action against Palestinians is needed to protect the State of Israel then what about Iran's nuclear development which threatens Israel? Why not attack Iran?

Answer: because Iran can defend themselves.

Israel finds it easy to stand on the necks of Palestinians, it's sadistic at this stage. As little respect I had for Israel before this conflict I also had some sympathy for their position historically, but they've really shown their true colours with this campaign of pure, unadulturated terrorism.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

if you make a claim be prepared to back it up.

are you taking the piss?

Are you denying WP/phosphorous shells were used in this conflict?

No evading, no changing the subject, yes or no.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Or better yet - prove me wrong.

How can I prove unreferenced waffle from the unit in charge of propaganda for the Israeli State wrong?

Use proper sources and then debate can proceed.