1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

wes

Ok here is an example:

Child casualties of Israel's war on Gaza


Stories of 10 of the 280 or more children who died during the three-week military operation

Abdul Rahim Abu Halima, 14, was killed when his home was hit by an Israeli white phosphorus artillery shell in Atatra, in north-eastern Gaza, on 4 January. He died along with two of his brothers, Zayed, eight, and Hamza, six, his sister Shahed, who was 15-months-old, and their father, Saad Allah, 45, who was sheltering them in his arms in the hallway when the shell struck. The inside walls of the house are still blackened and pieces of shrapnel and shell casing are spread across the hallway beneath a gaping hole in the roof. "He was a very active boy, a little bit nervous sometimes, but he was good at football," said his brother Mahmoud, 20. "He played with the neighbours and was in a team at school. We shared a room together and he was always trying to get me out of there. I loved him so very much. He was a wonderful boy."

Click here for the rest

The continued denials are absurd pure and simple. People were killed by White phosphorous. To deny this is an absurdity. The examples were here earlier in the thread.

Offy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

are you taking the piss?

Are you denying WP/phosphorous shells were used in this conflict?

No evading, no changing the subject, yes or no.

Why talk to Israeli propaganda merchants? :rolleyes: They dont have the capacity for honesty.

OhNoYouDidn't

wes wrote: »

Ok here is an example:


The continued denials are absurd pure and simple. People were killed by White phosphorous. To deny this is an absurdity. The examples were here earlier in the thread.

Its not absured. Its much more sinister than that.

I hate to say it, but this is Goebbeles-esque stuff we are being fed here.

Jack Bauer999

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its not absured. Its much more sinister than that.

I hate to say it, but this is Goebbeles-esque stuff we are being fed here.

havent israel already admitted using WP


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

OhNoYouDidn't

Jack Bauer999 wrote: »

havent israel already admitted using WP


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

yes. so why is someone from Israel on this site trying to muddy the waters? Crude, clumsy propaganda

they used it, denied it, and got found out. open and shut

Offy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

yes. so why is someone from Israel on this site trying to muddy the waters.

they used it, denied it, and got found out. open and shut

It would certainly look like Israelis like to stir it up in other countries.

A Dub in Glasgo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

yes. so why is someone from Israel on this site trying to muddy the waters?

Maybe they have yet to be fed their daily info, you know, the one where propaganda reigns supreme!

They remind of the robots who need to recharge every now and then so they can spout the latest line

Offy

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Maybe they have yet to be fed their daily info, you know, the one where propaganda reigns supreme!

They remind of the robots who need to recharge every now and then so they can spout the latest line

A tactical retreat you mean?
On a separate note, why do the Israelis feel the need to spread lies and misinformation? Do they think the rest of the world will believe anything they tell us?

IRISH RAIL

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

yes. so why is someone from Israel on this site trying to muddy the waters? Crude, clumsy propaganda

they used it, denied it, and got found out. open and shut

i was born in Ireland
i never made any statements so I dont need to prove or disprove anything
I didnt pass any propoganda or lie
all I asked for was a figure which couldnt be given

ohnoyoudidnt
how can I deny wp shells were not used I was not there to see them and neither were you all we have is conflicting reports

I hate to say it, but this is Goebbeles-esque stuff we are being fed here.

are you comparing me to a Nazi?

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

how can I deny wp shells were not used I was not there to see them and neither were you all we have is conflicting reports

The proof has been provided repeatedly. WP was used. It has killed people. To deny its use and its causing people deaths is an absurdity.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

i was born in Ireland
i never made any statements so I dont need to prove or disprove anything
I didnt pass any propoganda or lie
all I asked for was a figure which couldnt be given

So because a figure could not be provided for deaths, you decided that no-one was killed. Its not even specious reasoning.

I have no idea how many people die of heart attacks each year. I don't deny the existance of them.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

ohnoyoudidnt
how can I deny wp shells were not used I was not there to see them and neither were you all we have is conflicting reports

The IDF have admitted it. So why would you bother denying it? Which leads us nicely to:

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I hate to say it, but this is Goebbeles-esque stuff we are being fed here.

are you comparing me to a Nazi?

I'm comparing your bumbling attempts to deny what has clearly happened and defend the indefensible with crude circular arguments to Gobbells.

youcrazyjesus!

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I hate to say it, but this is Goebbeles-esque stuff we are being fed here.

are you comparing me to a Nazi?

Eh irony?

Offy

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

are you comparing me to a Nazi?

I compare all Israelis to Nazis.

OhNoYouDidn't

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Maybe they have yet to be fed their daily info, you know, the one where propaganda reigns supreme!

They remind of the robots who need to recharge every now and then so they can spout the latest line

and all dissapeared off at the same time.....

shift change in a bunker somewhere>

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think the Israeli people definitely wants peace with the palestinians. I think most Israelis would give up the west bank settlements for the benefit of having peace. Of course the religous extremists and right wingers would oppose that but eventually it will have to be done anyway. I support Israel (as you might have guessed) but do not support the settlements.

Now whether the incoming government will make significant moves for peace is open to debate. I have little confidence in Netanyahu adopting a dovish position. Barak and Livni haven't won any friends in the palestinian movement with the latest action but still have pragmatic ties with Abbas. If Hamas made some concessions then a Livni/Barak government might make the jump too.

If netanyahu became prime minister then I don't see much change unless he has a Sharon-esque u-turn and proposes something totally out of character

Thanks for your honest answer. I'd never have guessed where your support lies:P
I agree with you about Netanyahu but I can't see him changing his stance.
Livni can't seem to make up her mind what her position is. On the one hand in Europe and Washington she comes across as the seeker of peace, at home she's advocating assassinations and more strikes even when things have been quiet for a week.

I don't think Hammas are going to veer away from their demands this time. They have seen Abbas humiliated and agreements not kept and they don't trust Israel to stick to any agreement or truce that will come about. Another problem I believe is, peace is not possible without someone at least talking to Hammas. They will always be a thorn in the side of both the PA and Israel if they are ignored. I hope that Mitchell will at least try to get them to agree to join with the PA and start to take part in any diplomatic efforts that will take place.

Offy

You parade around here singing about how hard you had it and still have it while you lie and kill innocent civilians with horrible weapons, you spew rubbish and expect us to believe it and when we dont you accuse us of supporting Hamas and hating Israel. I could care less about Israel, sooner or later Israel will start WW3 and theres nothing we can do to stop it, sooner or later Israel will launch a nuke because some crackpot blows up some Israelis and you believe its justified. Israel constantly defy the UN and international law. You use sugnatures that are oppressive, offencive and outright rude and you expect our shoulder to cry on? You think its clever to bulldose peoples homes? We dont.

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

The proof has been provided repeatedly. WP was used. It has killed people. To deny its use and its causing people deaths is an absurdity.

wes where do I deny wp shells are used?

sorry just seen a mistake in my sentance earlier
it should have said
how can I deny wp shells were used I wasnt there

paulaa

munchester29 wrote: »

Can’t really say I remember anything out of the ordinary (like the recent operation) before the last several elections, wouldn’t mind some reading material.

Israel has stated the goals of their war from the start – an end to the rocket threat over Israeli civilians.
I don’t think that protecting over 700,000 people from the risk of thousands of rockets is futile or that protecting these people from living their lives in between shelter runs is unnecessary.
I think the Israeli government is doing the best they can under the circumstances to protect the Israeli people from attacks. Any government would have done the same; most governments would have done much worse (some already have).


Yes. I believe that Israel is really serious.
The way I see it, there has been violence perpetrated on both sides since Israel was created in 1948, and even before that. Which of the sides has actually ever done anything to achieve peace, in amidst all this mutual violence?

Israel has agreed to a two state solution.
Israel has left Gaza, uprooting Israeli settlements and thousands of families in the process.
Israel has stopped building new settlements (talked about expansion much earlier in the thread)

I know the Palestinians should get much more, but Israel has at least made some of the steps necessary to make in the right direction. The result, unfortunately, was increased attacks.

What have the Palestinians ever done to achieve peace? Reduced rocket attacks during a ceasefire to “almost nothing”?

I agree with you that Israel must protect her citizens but not at the expense of other's basic human rights. The humiliation and complete lack of respect for the Palestinians over the years has been well documented. Human rights groups have been in Israel for years, documenting and filming the systematic abuse that occurs on a daily basis, the lack of freedom, the total disruption of their lives and the fear they live under.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0_5etjggg
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=fGYT0O5INq4
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=h2IXVcZoIic

I used to believe that Israel was interested in peace and a fair settlement for the Palestinians until I saw this.
A letter Re the Roadmap initiative from Dov Weissglas to Condoleezza Rice outlining their agreement.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Reference+Documents/Letter+Weissglas-Rice+18-Apr-2004.htm

What was really going on a few months later
"Against this background, Sharon's senior adviser and until recently his chief of staff, Dov Weissglas, in an interview in Haaretz, describes in gleeful detail why the proposed disengagement from Gaza — which he and Sharon had persuaded President George W. Bush and both houses of Congress to endorse — was actually intended to prevent a peace process, to consign Bush's "road map" to oblivion and to preclude the emergence of a Palestinian state of any kind."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/13/edsiegman_ed3_.php

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

But they are not doing all these things. The Israelis are defending themselves from the genocidal Palestinians:(

Dear me.

Why are they defending themselves by building civillian housing in the middle of the "genocidal Palestinians"?

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

wes where do I deny wp shells are used?

sorry just seen a mistake in my sentance earlier
it should have said
how can I deny wp shells were used I wasnt there

Ah alright fair enough. Honest misunderstanding then.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

The proof has been provided repeatedly. WP was used. It has killed people. To deny its use and its causing people deaths is an absurdity.

Wrong.

Israel has confirmed they used WP for legitimate purposes and nothing else.

The Guardian article talking about the use of WP against civilians specifically says that Israel is investigating the claims, nothing more – no admittance on Israel’s part to anything. Since that article was published – I don’t remember any additional info on the subject, so I guess nothing was really proven.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

Ok here is an example:


The continued denials are absurd pure and simple. People were killed by White phosphorous. To deny this is an absurdity. The examples were here earlier in the thread.

Since you can't really trust Palestinian testimonies, I don't see how the Guardian article can be considered as unbiased and accurate.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Since you can't really trust Palestinian testimonies, I don't see how the Guardian article can be considered as unbiased and accurate.

If anything containing Palestinian testimony is discounted (which is, as far as I'm concerned, racist) then surely every source connected to the obviously partisan Israeli Government must logically be likewise dismissed. So why do you keep quoting them...?

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Wrong.

Israel has confirmed they used WP for legitimate purposes and nothing else.

Wrong? WP was used. People have died from it. This is correct. This is what I said. I said nothing of legitimacy. You really need to read what I actually said, rather than what you wish I said.

Everything I said was factually correct. WP was used. People have died from it. Both those things are correct. I made no claims about it use being legitamate or illegitimate.

munchester29 wrote: »

The Guardian article talking about the use of WP against civilians specifically says that Israel is investigating the claims, nothing more – no admittance on Israel’s part to anything. Since that article was published – I don’t remember any additional info on the subject, so I guess nothing was really proven.

I gave an example of someone dieing from WP and I have proven it was used. Israels government admiting or not admiting to improper use, means nothing, as they have no issues lieing (in fact they changed there story several times concerning WP use) and I never mentioned it either. Regardless, I never said anything about the use being legitimate or otherwise.

So I am not wrong. You just need to read what I actually post.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Since you can't really trust Palestinian testimonies, I don't see how the Guardian article can be considered as unbiased and accurate.

So your saying no one died from WP then?

If the source was Hamas, I would discount it, as they have shown themselves to be less than truthful, just like the IDF has shown themselves to be less than truthful. Just, because it come from Palestinians, does not make it false.

Of course, you seem to expect us to take Israeli government claims as gospel truth every time for some reason, when they have been shown to be less than truthful. I am juding Israeli government based on there actions and not there race/religion.

munchester29

paulaa wrote: »

I agree with you that Israel must protect her citizens but not at the expense of other's basic human rights. The humiliation and complete lack of respect for the Palestinians over the years has been well documented. Human rights groups have been in Israel for years, documenting and filming the systematic abuse that occurs on a daily basis, the lack of freedom, the total disruption of their lives and the fear they live under.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0_5etjggg
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=fGYT0O5INq4
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=h2IXVcZoIic

I can’t watch the youtube videos from work, but I’ve seen enough similar videos to get your point.
The problem with your logic is that the most basic fundamental human right there is - is the right to live.
All other human rights pale in comparison, and one might argue that if the right to live is taken from you, all other human rights mean nothing to you since you are dead.

That leads me to the conclusion that as far as Israel is concerned, maintaining the right of the Israeli people to live has higher priority over the human rights of the Palestinians. Can’t blame them for that – their citizens mean more to the Israeli government than the Palestinians.

paulaa wrote: »

I used to believe that Israel was interested in peace and a fair settlement for the Palestinians until I saw this.
A letter Re the Roadmap initiative from Dov Weissglas to Condoleezza Rice outlining their agreement.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Reference+Documents/Letter+Weissglas-Rice+18-Apr-2004.htm

I don’t see anything in the letter that shows Israel is not interested in peace.

paulaa wrote: »

What was really going on a few months later
"Against this background, Sharon's senior adviser and until recently his chief of staff, Dov Weissglas, in an interview in Haaretz, describes in gleeful detail why the proposed disengagement from Gaza — which he and Sharon had persuaded President George W. Bush and both houses of Congress to endorse — was actually intended to prevent a peace process, to consign Bush's "road map" to oblivion and to preclude the emergence of a Palestinian state of any kind."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/13/edsiegman_ed3_.php

This is a perfect example of how half truths and lies are used to give the wrong impression.

Even if you think about it logically, you will see that these claims are absurd – how will leaving Gaza stop the peace process?

A bit more reading about the Weissglas article, if you want the whole picture:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=31&x_article=793

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

If anything containing Palestinian testimony is discounted (which is, as far as I'm concerned, racist) then surely every source connected to the obviously partisan Israeli Government must logically be likewise dismissed. So why do you keep quoting them...?

If other people use sources based on Palestinian testimonies, then I believe I'm entitled to show the other side's point of view and quote Israeli sources.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

A bit more reading about the Weissglas article, if you want the whole picture:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=31&x_article=793

Wait, you accuse the rest of us of using biased sources and you bring up Camera?

Here is an example of what Camera tries to do:
Wikipedia campaign

Also, what is said in your article are just typical Israeli excuses, doesn't really change the content of what was quoted by paulaa.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

If other people use sources based on Palestinian testimonies, then I believe I'm entitled to show the other side's point of view and quote Israeli sources.

The sources you use have changed there story several times already. There own actions show them to be unreliable and not the fact that they are Israeli.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

Wrong? WP was used. People have died from it. This is correct. This is what I said. I said nothing of legitimacy. You really need to read what I actually said, rather than what you wish I said.

Everything I said was factually correct. WP was used. People have died from it. Both those things are correct. I made no claims about it use being legitamate or illegitimate.



I gave an example of someone dieing from WP and I have proven it was used. Israels government admiting or not admiting to improper use, means nothing, as they have no issues lieing (in fact they changed there story several times concerning WP use) and I never mentioned it either. Regardless, I never said anything about the use being legitimate or otherwise.

So I am not wrong. You just need to read what I actually post.

I actually read what you post, and so far I haven’t seen any proof that anyone died from WP, besides rumours, beliefs, etc which don’t count as proof.

The nature of the WP use (legitimate or not, and by whom) is crucial to this question.

For example, here is a possible scenario:
Israel fired a WP shell for smoke screen purposes, but the shell didn’t explode.
Hamas terrorists picked up the shell, and tried to use if for their purposes (maybe to booby trap a school), they did something wrong and it exploded hurting the terrorists and civilians standing by.
The Palestinians will naturally blame Israel for illegal use of WP, the UN will blame Israel, etc. Still doesn’t show Israel used WP shells illegally.

So all your proof, is not really proof, it is Palestinian claims.