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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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    #3062
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    Wait, you accuse the rest of us of using biased sources and you bring up Camera?

    Here is an example of what Camera tries to do:
    Wikipedia campaign

    Also, what is said in your article are just typical Israeli excuses, doesn't really change the content of what was quoted by paulaa.

    Try reading the article first. If you don't beleive what it says - read the original article in Haaretz.
    I used the Camera article as a source because it saved me the time from going over the Haaretz article, extracting quotes, etc.


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    #3063
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    The sources you use have changed there story several times already. There own actions show them to be unreliable and not the fact that they are Israeli.


    That’s how it works with official spokesmen.
    They have to issue a statement the moment a claim is made, and they usually deny everything. They do this because if they say nothing and just investigate the claims, the world would see their silence as admission of guilt.

    The statements are then updated/changed after official investigations have been conducted and the actual details are clear.

    That’s how it works all over the world, not just in Israel.


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    #3064
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    I actually read what you post, and so far I haven’t seen any proof that anyone died from WP, besides rumours, beliefs, etc which don’t count as proof.

    You just deny clear evidence, when it suits you. People have died, plain and simple. Denial of it, is an absurdity at this point. Its sorta hard to fake dead bodies with WP burns on them.
    munchester29 wrote: »
    The nature of the WP use (legitimate or not, and by whom) is crucial to this question.

    I never mentioned it either way. I just said people died from it.
    munchester29 wrote: »
    For example, here is a possible scenario:
    Israel fired a WP shell for smoke screen purposes, but the shell didn’t explode.
    Hamas terrorists picked up the shell, and tried to use if for their purposes (maybe to booby trap a school), they did something wrong and it exploded hurting the terrorists and civilians standing by.

    You have no proof of this. So your scenario is worthless.
    munchester29 wrote: »
    The Palestinians will naturally blame Israel for illegal use of WP, the UN will blame Israel, etc. Still doesn’t show Israel used WP shells illegally.

    Well, the UN would know far better than anyone here. So thats more than enough proof.
    munchester29 wrote: »
    So all your proof, is not really proof, it is Palestinian claims.

    The UN aren't run by the Palestinians, last I checked. The proof is perfectly valid. You just reject it for no good reason.


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    #3065
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    munchester29 wrote: »
    I actually read what you post, and so far I haven’t seen any proof that anyone died from WP, besides rumours, beliefs, etc which don’t count as proof.

    The nature of the WP use (legitimate or not, and by whom) is crucial to this question.

    For example, here is a possible scenario:
    Israel fired a WP shell for smoke screen purposes, but the shell didn’t explode.
    Hamas terrorists picked up the shell, and tried to use if for their purposes (maybe to booby trap a school), they did something wrong and it exploded hurting the terrorists and civilians standing by.
    The Palestinians will naturally blame Israel for illegal use of WP, the UN will blame Israel, etc. Still doesn’t show Israel used WP shells illegally.

    So all your proof, is not really proof, it is Palestinian claims.

    This really is some of the most depraved stuff I have ever read.

    I know its difficult to defend the barbarity of the IDF and the rotten state of a nation that stands behind them in their slaughter, but this isn't even at the level of clutching at straws.


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    #3066
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Try reading the article first. If you don't beleive what it says - read the original article in Haaretz.
    I used the Camera article as a source because it saved me the time from going over the Haaretz article, extracting quotes, etc.

    I already stated my opinion on what was said, and what was said doesn't change what was quoted. It just throws out the old tired terrorism excuse.

    Also, I stated the source you used isn't well regarded. You have no issue with pointing out that main stream news sources, the UN can't be trusted etc. So I taught it valid to show that you don't hold your own sources to the same standards you demaned of others.


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    #3067
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    You just deny clear evidence, when it suits you. People have died, plain and simple. Denial of it, is an absurdity at this point. Its sorta hard to fake dead bodies with WP burns on them.

    It’s very easy actually. All you need are bodies and WP.


    wes wrote: »
    Well, the UN would know far better than anyone here. So thats more than enough proof

    The UN aren't run by the Palestinians, last I checked. The proof is perfectly valid. You just reject it for no good reason.

    Not really, the UN can’t be trusted either since 99% of UN personnel in Gaza are Palestinians.

    Here is some interesting reading on the UN and their ties with Hamas:

    http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/UNRWAs_Hamas_Employees.asp


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    #3068
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    That’s how it works with official spokesmen.
    They have to issue a statement the moment a claim is made, and they usually deny everything. They do this because if they say nothing and just investigate the claims, the world would see their silence as admission of guilt.

    The statements are then updated/changed after official investigations have been conducted and the actual details are clear.

    That’s how it works all over the world, not just in Israel.

    Doesn't matter, there have been shown to be lieing. They have shown they can't be trusted based on there actions and I don't dismiss them based on race/religion, but on there actions.


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    #3069
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    I already stated my opinion on what was said, and what was said doesn't change what was quoted. It just throws out the old tired terrorism excuse.

    Also, I stated the source you used isn't well regarded. You have no issue with pointing out that main stream news sources, the UN can't be trusted etc. So I taught it valid to show that you don't hold your own sources to the same standards you demaned of others.

    Same as everybody else here, I use every source I have - Palestinain, Israeli, UN, left winged, right winged, whatever - as long as it helps my argument.


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    #3070
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    Doesn't matter, there have been shown to be lieing. They have shown they can't be trusted based on there actions and I don't dismiss them based on race/religion, but on there actions.

    But the same can be said of the Palestinians...


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    #3071
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    munchester29 wrote: »
    But the same can be said of the Palestinians...

    Not really.

    The IDF denied using WP. Evidence from impartial sources shows they did. They then admit using it but cloud the issue about legalilty.

    When have the Palestinians been caught in such a blatant lie?


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    #3072
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    munchester29 wrote: »
    If other people use sources based on Palestinian testimonies, then I believe I'm entitled to show the other side's point of view and quote Israeli sources.

    And the truth be damned, presumably.


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    #3073
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    munchester29 wrote: »
    It’s very easy actually. All you need are bodies and WP.


    Are you seriously suggesting that Hamas mutilated dead bodies with WP?

    munchester29 wrote: »
    Not really, the UN can’t be trusted either since 99% of UN personnel in Gaza are Palestinians.

    Here is some interesting reading on the UN and their ties with Hamas:

    http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/UNRWAs_Hamas_Employees.asp

    And Palestinians, of course, cannot be trusted at all..... Because they are untermensch.


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    #3074
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    It’s very easy actually. All you need are bodies and WP.

    Fair enough, so your saying the faked it then? Any proof?
    munchester29 wrote: »
    Not really, the UN can’t be trusted either since 99% of UN personnel in Gaza are Palestinians.

    So the Palestinians run the UN, now?
    munchester29 wrote: »
    Here is some interesting reading on the UN and their ties with Hamas:

    http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/UNRWAs_Hamas_Employees.asp

    So Hamas now run the entire UN then?


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    #3075
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    But the same can be said of the Palestinians...

    No, it can't. Same can be said for Hamas.

    You are judging an entire race based on the actions of the few.

    I am juding specfic organizations based on there own actions. World of difference.


  • Options
    #3076
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Not really.

    The IDF denied using WP. Evidence from impartial sources shows they did. They then admit using it but cloud the issue about legalilty.

    When have the Palestinians been caught in such a blatant lie?

    Well, one example would be how they said they wern't using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and then all those videos popping up showing them firing from civilian homes roof tops, from next to a TV broadcasting station, etc.


  • Options
    #3077
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    Nodin wrote: »
    And the truth be damned, presumably.

    No, the truth needs to be assessed carefully, taking what both sides say into consideration (and suspecting everything). Implementing a bit of logic and common sense won’t hurt either.


  • Options
    #3078
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Same as everybody else here, I use every source I have - Palestinain, Israeli, UN, left winged, right winged, whatever - as long as it helps my argument.

    You go on about one groups bias, but ignore anothers completely.


  • Options
    #3079
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    No, the truth needs to be assessed carefully, taking what both sides say into consideration (and suspecting everything). Implementing a bit of logic and common sense won’t hurt either.

    You reject one side completely.


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    #3080
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting that Hamas mutilated dead bodies with WP?

    No, I’m suggesting that as long as the truth is unknown, there is no point to jump to conclusions.



    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    And Palestinians, of course, cannot be trusted at all..... Because they are untermensch.

    No, they can’t be trusted because they have been caught lying too many times in the past.


  • Options
    #3081
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Well, one example would be how they said they wern't using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and then all those videos popping up showing them firing from civilian homes roof tops, from next to a TV broadcasting station, etc.

    Still, you have no evidence, that they faked anything.


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  • Options
    #3082
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    No, I’m suggesting that as long as the truth is unknown, there is no point to jump to conclusions.

    The truth is known.
    munchester29 wrote: »
    No, they can’t be trusted because they have been caught lying too many times in the past.

    So you judge the entire race as liars then?


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    #3083
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    Fair enough, so your saying the faked it then? Any proof?



    So the Palestinians run the UN, now?



    So Hamas now run the entire UN then?

    The higher level functionaries are European mostly, but all the ground personnel are Palestinians, and the high ranking officials base their reports on testimonies gathered from Palestinians by Palestinian UN workers.


  • Options
    #3084
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    No, it can't. Same can be said for Hamas.

    You are judging an entire race based on the actions of the few.

    I am juding specfic organizations based on there own actions. World of difference.

    Ok, I agree - Hamas can't be trusted.


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    #3085
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    munchester29 wrote: »
    No, I’m suggesting that as long as the truth is unknown, there is no point to jump to conclusions.

    So you threw in two outlandish and offensive allegations against the Palestinians.

    The IDF fired WP shells into the most densly populated place on earth and innocents died. The only unknown is how many died and exactly why the IDF decided to deploy this chemical in this environment.
    munchester29 wrote: »
    No, they can’t be trusted because they have been caught lying too many times in the past.

    But its the UN making these claims.

    I'll ignore the racist undertones to that claim by the way


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    #3086
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    Still, you have no evidence, that they faked anything.

    No, and you have no evidence that the Israelis fired WP intentionally and illegally on civilians. Didn’t stop you from reaching your own conclusions though.


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    #3087
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    The higher level functionaries are European mostly, but all the ground personnel are Palestinians, and the high ranking officials base their reports on testimonies gathered from Palestinians by Palestinian UN workers.

    So the Palestinians are able to get the people in Europe to present false hoods then? Any proof of this?


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    #3088
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    So you judge the entire race as liars then?

    No, and I never assumed you see all Israelis or all Jews as liars either.


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    #3089
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    No, and you have no evidence that the Israelis fired WP intentionally and illegally on civilians. Didn’t stop you from reaching your own conclusions though.

    I just said people have died from WP. You flat out denied this. World of difference to what I said.

    Also, the IDF fired the WP, so they fired it intentionally. Whether they targetting civlians or not is a different issue. Still civilians did die from WP.


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    #3090
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    No, and I never assumed you see all Israelis or all Jews as liars either.

    I always specified the government and the IDF. I never said we should dismiss Jewish source or anythig like that.

    You have however said Palestinians can not be trusted, you did no specify the government or Hamas. You dismiss there claims based on them being Palestinian.


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    #3091
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    The IDF fired WP shells into the most densly populated place on earth and innocents died. The only unknown is how many died and exactly why the IDF decided to deploy this chemical in this environment.

    Funny how you make a claim in the first sentence, yet basically admit that you can't base it on any proof in the second one.

    Again - Israel fired WP, they never said they didn't. They say it was done legally and they are investigating claims that WP use was not legal. That is all the information out there that can actually be verified at this point.


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