1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

BlaasForRafa

Charming little video from Hamas celebrating rocket strikes and suicide bombings, guess their leader was right about them being a culture of death
http://www.palutube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=bcfe8450a1a41c200364

edanto

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Charming little video from Hamas celebrating rocket strikes and suicide bombings, guess their leader was right about them being a culture of death
http://www.palutube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=bcfe8450a1a41c200364

So, this Israeli video of the IDF operating in Gaza, and firing a hand held missile at a Hamas base means that they are also a culture of death?

http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-35435-israelnews-idf-soldiers-operating-heart-gaza-city

Don't be ridiculous.

To munchester29 & IRISH RAIL - congratulations on your tenacity, I can't believe that this thread is still going around in the same circles after more than 3,000 posts. As far as I can see, which is pretty far from where I'm sitting, a lot of that travelling in circles is due to your single mindedness and refusal to engage with logic, evidence and empathy with the the Palestinians.

Whatever they gave you guys in school or boot camp, I'm sure as sh1t glad that I never got it.

To the posters with which I am in agreement with, farewell, for me this thread is done. Anyone that could be convinced by it is long gone, those that remain are impermeable.

The battle for Palestinian independence has shifted to the political world, it is there you should exert your influence now. Public opinion has been set and is in our favour.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Thanks for your honest answer. I'd never have guessed where your support lies:P
I agree with you about Netanyahu but I can't see him changing his stance.
Livni can't seem to make up her mind what her position is. On the one hand in Europe and Washington she comes across as the seeker of peace, at home she's advocating assassinations and more strikes even when things have been quiet for a week.

I don't think Hammas are going to veer away from their demands this time. They have seen Abbas humiliated and agreements not kept and they don't trust Israel to stick to any agreement or truce that will come about. Another problem I believe is, peace is not possible without someone at least talking to Hammas. They will always be a thorn in the side of both the PA and Israel if they are ignored. I hope that Mitchell will at least try to get them to agree to join with the PA and start to take part in any diplomatic efforts that will take place.

Quite possibly the biggest tragedy was Rabin being killed. There was a hope back then that possibly a proper solution was possible. Of course Arafat was a corrupt crook but there at least seemed like there was some hope. Then Netanyahu comes along and screws everything up.

Ditto for Sharon when he went to the temple mount. I don't like or trust Likud one bit and don't see Netanyahu as having changed in the intervening years since his last term in office.

I think at least the Labor party WANTS peace although they may not be in a position to deliver it. I agree that Abbas is in a weak position too, the palestinians are in effect two states now, West Bank and Gaza and I don't see the reconciliation talks between Hamas and Gaza really being sincere, I don't think Fatah will just agree to forgive and forget the Gaza coup.

I think there should be approaches between Israel and Hamas but they should be secret as I just don't see either side wanting to make that public move. Israel can't do it publicly because of Hamas still being a terrorist group and Hamas can't do it because they have the machismo pride of being the voice of the "arab street" at the moment.

Appointing Mitchell is potentially a good move and Egypt used the Gaza conflict to move into a more central position as an "honest broker". If they can convey messages and proposals between the two sides perhaps theres a chance. I think Hamas need to be more sincere about peace as well, talks of a 10 year hudna just don't cut it. Why 10 years? If people want peace why not forever? Look at Israel and Egypt, more than 20 years of war but now 30 years of peace between them.

At the end of the day for real peace it will take a leap of faith from both sides. For Hamas that leap would be far more courageous than keeping up rocket attacks and bombings.

BlaasForRafa

edanto wrote: »

So, this Israeli video of the IDF operating in Gaza, and firing a hand held missile at a Hamas base means that they are also a culture of death?

http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-35435-israelnews-idf-soldiers-operating-heart-gaza-city

Don't be ridiculous.

To munchester29 & IRISH RAIL - congratulations on your tenacity, I can't believe that this thread is still going around in the same circles after more than 3,000 posts. As far as I can see, which is pretty far from where I'm sitting, a lot of that travelling in circles is due to your single mindedness and refusal to engage with logic, evidence and empathy with the the Palestinians.

Whatever they gave you guys in school or boot camp, I'm sure as sh1t glad that I never got it.

To the posters with which I am in agreement with, farewell, for me this thread is done. Anyone that could be convinced by it is long gone, those that remain are impermeable.

The battle for Palestinian independence has shifted to the political world, it is there you should exert your influence now. Public opinion has been set and is in our favour.

You do not make an honest comparison with those videos. The israeli one is one of soldiers doing their job. The palestinian one if for celebrating suicide bombings among other things, if you think those are equal then frankly you make me sick.

Regarding your last "point", there are some posters who want to see a solution to this for both sides and there are those who just want to incessantly slam Israel, we can see which "side" you come from.

tallus

Blasforrafa; what does your sig mean ?

OhNoYouDidn't

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You do not make an honest comparison with those videos. The israeli one is one of soldiers doing their job. The palestinian one if for celebrating suicide bombings among other things, if you think those are equal then frankly you make me sick.

the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades are the de facto army of Palestine, the IDF the army of the apartheid Israeli state that just killed 300 children.

you are both as bad as each other

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Regarding your last "point", there are some posters who want to see a solution to this for both sides and there are those who just want to incessantly slam Israel, we can see which "side" you come from.

Hamas don't organise Palestinians to come on here and defend cold blooded murder like the Israelis do. If they do, they will be tackled like you are.

edanto

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You do not make an honest comparison with those videos. The israeli one is one of soldiers doing their job. The palestinian one if for celebrating suicide bombings among other things, if you think those are equal then frankly you make me sick.

I don't really want to make you feel sick.

I see two videos, don't understand the language in either, but see people in military cloths parading their weapons and going about the place soldiering. The randomly aimed rockets of Hamas are of course more likely to have civilian deaths than the image at 2:55 of the IDF soldier firing a rocket into a civilian area with the help of a spotter.

The IDF can afford spotters. Hamas can't. Does that mean that I should raise or lower the moral bar for one or the other?

I don't think it does, so I disagree with both. I don't care if they're called soldiers or terrorists, it's old hat now that those terms are relative to the side you think is in the right.

I'm doing the same thing here that I would do if I lived in either country, campaigning to politicians for a peaceful, lasting two state solution. I hope that we can find common ground there at least.

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades are the de facto army of Palestine, the IDF the army of the apartheid Israeli state that just killed 300 children.

you are both as bad as each other



Hamas don't organise Palestinians to come on here and defend cold blooded murder like the Israelis do. If they do, they will be tackled like you are.

fatah would dispute who the de facto army of Palestine is.

and no one has organised me to come on here. and if you think in terms of tackling people then your just being childish.

BlaasForRafa

edanto wrote: »

I don't really want to make you feel sick.

I see two videos, don't understand the language in either, but see people in military cloths parading their weapons and going about the place soldiering. The randomly aimed rockets of Hamas are of course more likely to have civilian deaths than the image at 2:55 of the IDF soldier firing a rocket into a civilian area with the help of a spotter.

The IDF can afford spotters. Hamas can't. Does that mean that I should raise or lower the moral bar for one or the other?

I don't think it does, so I disagree with both. I don't care if they're called soldiers or terrorists, it's old hat now that those terms are relative to the side you think is in the right.

I'm doing the same thing here that I would do if I lived in either country, campaigning to politicians for a peaceful, lasting two state solution. I hope that we can find common ground there at least.

I guess you didn't see the multiple images of suicide bus bombs in the Hamas video. Or perhaps you chose not to see them?(I prefer to think that it was an honest omission on your part, if not then it just makes your comments worse)

Yes we have common ground on a two state solution.

OhNoYouDidn't

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

fatah would dispute who the de facto army of Palestine is.

Well they lost the election, so let them dispute it.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

and no one has organised me to come on here. and if you think in terms of tackling people then your just being childish.

so why are you here?

and answer tallus's question. whats your sig about?

edanto

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I guess you didn't see the multiple images of suicide bus bombs in the Hamas video.

No, I didn't see them, I didn't watch it to the end. Now I'm glad I didn't.

I'm glad you support the two state solution, I hope you do something about it other than posting here.

I'm off, said my goodbyes earlier, gonna unsubscribe from the thead. Always available by PM to start a revolution.

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Well they lost the election, so let them dispute it.



so why are you here?

and answer tallus's question. whats your sig about?

Indeed Hamas have been using the situation to inflict some more punishment on Fatah members.

And I don't answer to ill-mannered demands from you.

IRISH RAIL

And once again today
a rocket from Hamas to the people of southern Israel

and the IDF/AF has responded dystroying a weapons prouction facility and an tunnell.
in a decision taken earlier today the government has said it will strike back at every launch into Israel and "the era in which we would ignore (such attacks) has ended. We'll respond to any rocket launching."

They have broken the ceasefire I wonder how pro palestinians can spin that to blame Israel

also today
Khaled Mashal has said he will not engage in a long term cease fire with Israel

He ( Hamas) will not free Gilad Shalit ( in captivity since 2006) in return for the permanant opening of the crossings.
so once again a group of terrorists have dictated the path of the people who voted them in.

Offy

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

They have broken the ceasefire I wonder how pro palestinians can spin that to blame Israel

also today
Khaled Mashal has said he will not engage in a long term cease fire with Israel

He ( Hamas) will not free Gilad Shalit ( in captivity since 2006) in return for the permanant opening of the crossings.
so once again a group of terrorists have dictated the path of the people who voted them in.

As I said before Israel are recruiting for Hamas by MURDERING INNOCENT CIVILIANS.
Blastaforasta and irish rail are complete aholes that are probably members of Hamas trying to drum up support by turning people against Jews and Israel with your self righteous and deceitful BS. Could any Israeli be stupid enough to use a signature like clearing houses. Thats like saying "I enjoy making innocent civilians homeless." which is what Israel love to do.

munchester29

The Saint wrote: »

So you say that the resolutions I mentioned didn't say "all territories" or "the territories" so therefore it cannot be determined whether the settlements are legal. From your qoute above:


So the ommisison of "the" in UN242 was sufficiently ambiguous to not include all territories taken in 1967. However from the resolutions I quoted:

UN 446


UN 452


UN 465


UN 476

So it seems from your arguement that the inclusion of "the" would indicate all territories captured in 1967. It also specifies Jerusalem so there is absolutely no ambiguity in relation to that.

Wrong.
The only problem with your argument, is that the word you should concentrate on (as I’ve said before) is “all”, or if you like - “all the”. Not just “the” by itself. All the resolutions you quoted seem to be missing that crucial word.

I think it is very clear from my quotes that “all” is the critical word here. The Arab states wanted the resolution to be changed to “all territories”, not “the territories”. The same is explained by Lord Caradon.

“Arab states specifically requested that the resolution be changed to read "all territories" instead of "territories. Their request was discussed by the UN Security Council. However, it was rejected. The Security Council actively chose to reject writing "all territories" and instead wrote "territories." And it was this version, without "all" that was passed”

So my point still stands.

By the way – another problem nobody seems to think about with the 1967 borders, which also indicates that these are not permanent borders, is the fact that these 1967 borders are actually ceasefire borders from a previous war – they are not officially agreed border lines.

eoin5

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

He ( Hamas) will not free Gilad Shalit ( in captivity since 2006) in return for the permanant opening of the crossings.
so once again a group of terrorists have dictated the path of the people who voted them in.

What would be the guarantee for permanent re-opening? Theyve heard it all before I feel.

Serenity Now!

The Saint wrote: »

So it seems from your arguement that the inclusion of "the" would indicate all territories captured in 1967. It also specifies Jerusalem so there is absolutely no ambiguity in relation to that.

It doesn't matter. They don't care. They see the West Bank as the spoils of war that the Arabs lost when they mobilised to eradicate Israel in 1967. Its previous occupier, Syria, gave about as much of a **** about its inhabitants as a right-wing settler would. One thing Syria and Israel have in common is that they both want the Golan Heights for strategic purposes. Who lives in it is irrelevant to them.
Jerusalem's previous occupier, Jordan, is now an ally. However, it is a powderkeg. Three religions see it as 'theirs'. Jews were forbidden from the contentious area of the city. They were limited to an alley way to pray near the Western Wall, for example. Israel sees Jerusalem as another 'spoil'.
What religious Jews see as the birthplace of their nation (Judea and Samaria) is also in West Bank.

Israel will never give up that area. If you're going to be despised and unwanted, why not be despised and unwanted in your own country which is situated in your homeland as the basic attitude drive in what I believe would be a lot of Israelis.

This isn't a support post of their policies regarding their neighbours or Palestinians. Out of all the pages and pages of posts on Gaza (why never before??), not one poster has assessed and discussed a realistic solution. Not one!
Instead there is the usual armchair-campaigner rhetoric which resorts to the internet search button or wiki-wagging when challenged.

There are three excellent editorial pieces in the latest Economist. Have a read of them.

paulaa

Talk about bombing the cr*p out of a country !!!!

How could this kind of vindictive action possibly benefit the "safety of the Israeli people" ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-strikes-leave-blair-project-with-major-repairs-1517855.html

youcrazyjesus!

Bollox, solutions have been proposed, you've either not read them or ignored them at the time.

Stealing land for living space that was originslly occupied during a war is wrong, just as it was
wrong for Hitler, Stalin, Saddam and whoever else.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

It doesn't matter. They don't care. They see the West Bank as the spoils of war that the Arabs lost when they mobilised to eradicate Israel in 1967. Its previous occupier, Syria, gave about as much of a **** about its inhabitants as a right-wing settler would. One thing Syria and Israel have in common is that they both want the Golan Heights for strategic purposes. Who lives in it is irrelevant to them.
Jerusalem's previous occupier, Jordan, is now an ally. However, it is a powderkeg. Three religions see it as 'theirs'. Jews were forbidden from the contentious area of the city. They were limited to an alley way to pray near the Western Wall, for example. Israel sees Jerusalem as another 'spoil'.
What religious Jews see as the birthplace of their nation (Judea and Samaria) is also in West Bank.

Israel will never give up that area. If you're going to be despised and unwanted, why not be despised and unwanted in your own country which is situated in your homeland as the basic attitude drive in what I believe would be a lot of Israelis.

This isn't a support post of their policies regarding their neighbours or Palestinians. Out of all the pages and pages of posts on Gaza (why never before??), not one poster has assessed and discussed a realistic solution. Not one!
Instead there is the usual armchair-campaigner rhetoric which resorts to the internet search button or wiki-wagging when challenged.

There are three excellent editorial pieces in the latest Economist. Have a read of them.

youcrazyjesus!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You do not make an honest comparison with those videos. The israeli one is one of soldiers doing their job. The palestinian one if for celebrating suicide bombings among other things, if you think those are equal then frankly you make me sick.

Regarding your last "point", there are some posters who want to see a solution to this for both sides and there are those who just want to incessantly slam Israel, we can see which "side" you come from.

I've proposed solutions and have many others who quite rightly, slam Israel. Your point is nonsense on that front


Yeah Israelis = good whatever the situation. Palestinians = bad, despite poverty, destruction and radicalisation. What about Israeli troops
taking photos of dead Palestinians as trophies? SS death cult or just " doing their job"?

That's what they said in Germany, I was only following orders.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

It doesn't matter. They don't care. They see the West Bank as the spoils of war that the Arabs lost when they mobilised to eradicate Israel in 1967. Its previous occupier, Syria, gave about as much of a **** about its inhabitants as a right-wing settler would. One thing Syria and Israel have in common is that they both want the Golan Heights for strategic purposes. Who lives in it is irrelevant to them.
Jerusalem's previous occupier, Jordan, is now an ally. However, it is a powderkeg. Three religions see it as 'theirs'. Jews were forbidden from the contentious area of the city. They were limited to an alley way to pray near the Western Wall, for example. Israel sees Jerusalem as another 'spoil'.
What religious Jews see as the birthplace of their nation (Judea and Samaria) is also in West Bank.

Israel will never give up that area. If you're going to be despised and unwanted, why not be despised and unwanted in your own country which is situated in your homeland as the basic attitude drive in what I believe would be a lot of Israelis.

This isn't a support post of their policies regarding their neighbours or Palestinians. Out of all the pages and pages of posts on Gaza (why never before??), not one poster has assessed and discussed a realistic solution. Not one!
Instead there is the usual armchair-campaigner rhetoric which resorts to the internet search button or wiki-wagging when challenged.

There are three excellent editorial pieces in the latest Economist. Have a read of them.

I have been discussing Palestine/Israel on a couple of other forums for years.

Several solutions have been put forward here but it's debatable whether what you might find "realistic" would be a fair solution.

Why do you criticise people for trying to educate themselves on a topic they're discussing ? No matter if it's Wiki or the Jerusalem Post at least people are trying to understand the situation. At least it's better than relying on the latest propaganda release from the Israeli politburo .

Not everyone can visit these places and many don't want to.

http://www.prleap.com/pr/56579/

Serenity Now!

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Bollox, solutions have been proposed, you've either not read them or ignored them at the time

Do point out what realistic solutions were proposed then. I've read every post on this thread, fella, and from what I see there isn't one person who would ever make it as a diplomatic mediator. Thats for friggin sure.

Sitting on your arse belching out the same one-sided tirade is about as useful as sitting on your arse doing nothing.

youcrazyjesus!

I find your endless determination to roll back and forward over the same points time and time again like the tide and your very cleverly constructed lies distuurbing. You know, without any doubt, that it refers to "ALL territories" for example. You're engaging in propaganda exercise and not in debate.

munchester29 wrote: »

Those “guys” I quoted are the dean of Yale law school and an international law professor who is the author of 27 books on jurisprudence and international law, and is considered one of the premier legal theorists in the field.

Hardly “some scholars”.




Resolution 242 doesn’t contain the word settlements, but it contains the word “territories”. Since the “settlements” are built in the “territories”, it has much relevance to the issue at hand.

As for the other resolutions – these also do not speak of “all the territories”, “all the settlements”, etc.
So the same problem from resolution 242 has been inherited by each and every one of the resolutions you quoted.

Take note – none of the resolutions details the borders of the territories or the specific settlements which are illegal, or the borders of the specific settlements which are illegal. So how do you know what is illegal and what isn’t?

So the resolutions were made, with a lot of room to manoeuvre when the time comes for an actual peace process.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Do point out what realistic solutions were proposed then. I've read every post on this thread, fella, and from what I see there isn't one person who would ever make it as a diplomatic mediator. Thats for friggin sure.

Sitting on your arse belching out the same one-sided tirade is about as useful as sitting on your arse doing nothing.

lol do you see the irony of that .
How many Governments and institutions have tried over the years and failed .
How many UN resolutions have failed because Israel wouldn't play her part ot compromise.
And you expect us posting on a forum to have the answer :rolleyes:

What would your solution be, (and be honest about it) ?

youcrazyjesus!

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Do point out what realistic solutions were proposed then. I've read every post on this thread, fella, and from what I see there isn't one person who would ever make it as a diplomatic mediator. Thats for friggin sure.

Sitting on your arse belching out the same one-sided tirade is about as useful as sitting on your arse doing nothing.

I reject your line of argument and insults, people are entitled to post, this is what boards is for, it doesn't mean
its the sum total of a persons actions. To suggest so is stupid.

And you're George Mitchell Im sure. I and many others have proposed solutions, solutions agreed upon already
by obama, brown, Olmert, Hamas, PLO effectively. Imnot going to spend time digging them out and rehashing
them for the 50th time just because some people claim to have read the thread but clearly didn't.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And I don't answer to ill-mannered demands from you.

Dear Sir, would you be good enough to elaborate on the significance of your "sig"? Thanks in advance.

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Several solutions have been put forward here but it's debatable whether what you might find "realistic" would be a fair solution

Well, lets have 'em then.
"Fair" doesn't come into it. "Fair" doesn't stop Israel bombing Gaza or Hamas to recognise the country in the first place. "Fair" doesn't get Hamas to abandon an armed campaign and "Fair" doesn't prevent Israel from targetting Hamas personnel.

paulaa wrote: »

Why do you criticise people for trying to educate themselves on a topic they're discussing ? No matter if it's Wiki or the Jerusalem Post at least people are trying to understand the situation. At least it's better than relying on the latest propaganda release from the Israeli politburo

Why? Because its lazy, retroactive and leads to highly selective referencing. Pretending to be knowledgable on a subject when all thats being done is keying in a search phrase is hardly a credible response. What makes this better than 'official' press releases, rhetoric or statements? Eff all. A hypocritical combination of moral relativism and mass populism.

What can mediators get all three sides of this ridiculously problematic area to do in order to gain a peaceful solution?

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Wrong.
The only problem with your argument,(.....)border lines.

Seeing as the aqquistion of territory by war was specfically dismissed in the preface, its rather pointless getting into the semantics of "the" and "all". I suggest re-reading the whole resolution, rather than cherry picking favourable minority readings of it.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Well, lets have 'em then.
"Fair" doesn't come into it. "Fair" doesn't stop Israel bombing Gaza or Hamas to recognise the country in the first place. "Fair" doesn't get Hamas to abandon an armed campaign and "Fair" doesn't prevent Israel from targetting Hamas personnel.


Why? Because its lazy, retroactive and leads to highly selective referencing. Pretending to be knowledgable on a subject when all thats being done is keying in a search phrase is hardly a credible response. What makes this better than 'official' press releases, rhetoric or statements? Eff all. A hypocritical combination of moral relativism and mass populism.

What can mediators get all three sides of this ridiculously problematic area to do in order to gain a peaceful solution?

Pretending to be knowledgable lol. I don't think anyone stated that they knew everything about the situation except those who spout the Israeli party line. Even then I've seen whole paragraphs lifted from Israel Today.

I find your attempts to stifle discussion on this thread transparent and laughable.
You sound annoyed because no one is buying into the propaganda and keep trying to get the thread closed by bringing it down to a personal level and stirring sh*t.

youcrazyjesus!

Nodin wrote: »

Dear Sir, would you be good enough to elaborate on the significance of your "sig"? Thanks in advance.

Wow. It seems that everybody posting on the pro-Israeli side seems to have some association with the IDF. Incredible.