1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There were other mitigating factors in Israel becoming involved in the suez crisis. France was the major supplier of military equipment to Israel at the time (not america as so many seem to think, that didn't happen till the 70's). It was especially vital that Israel get french fighter planes otherwise it would be practically defenceless against the air forces of surrounding arab countries. In that case becoming involved in the Suez crisis was a matter of national interest.

You're spot on. Go back a year when Nasser signed a huge arms deal with Czechoslovakia and Khrushchev agreed to supply them with more if needed.
Eisenhower and the west got jittery about the commies having a foothold in the Middle East and Britain and the US withdrew their offer of funds to build the Aswan dam. Hence Nassers actions.

paulaa

Is this a sign that maybe Hammas is softening a bit ?


Hamas: We will accept long-term truce if Gaza borders opened

Senior Hamas officials are indicating a willingness to negotiate a deal for a long-term truce with Israel as long as the borders of Gaza are opened to the rest of the world.

"We want to be part of the international community," Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad told The Associated Press this week at the Gaza-Egypt border, where he was coordinating Arab aid shipments. "I think Hamas has no interest now to increase the number of crises in Gaza or to challenge the world."

Hamas is trying hard to flex its muscles in the aftermath of Israel's three-week-long offensive in the Gaza Strip, doling out cash, vowing revenge and declaring victory over "Zionist aggression."

But AP interviews with Hamad and two other Hamas leaders in the war-ravaged territory they rule suggest some of that might be more bluster than reality - and the group may be ready for some serious deal making.

That raises the question of whether Hamas, which receives much of its funding and weapons from Tehran, can be coaxed out of Iran's orbit. The question looks less preposterous than it did before U.S. President Barack Obama began extending olive branches to the Muslim world and Israel's Gaza offensive reshuffled Mideast politics.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059873.html

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

Is this a sign that maybe Hammas is softening a bit ?


Hamas: We will accept long-term truce if Gaza borders opened

Senior Hamas officials are indicating a willingness to negotiate a deal for a long-term truce with Israel as long as the borders of Gaza are opened to the rest of the world.

"We want to be part of the international community," Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad told The Associated Press this week at the Gaza-Egypt border, where he was coordinating Arab aid shipments. "I think Hamas has no interest now to increase the number of crises in Gaza or to challenge the world."

Hamas is trying hard to flex its muscles in the aftermath of Israel's three-week-long offensive in the Gaza Strip, doling out cash, vowing revenge and declaring victory over "Zionist aggression."

But AP interviews with Hamad and two other Hamas leaders in the war-ravaged territory they rule suggest some of that might be more bluster than reality - and the group may be ready for some serious deal making.

That raises the question of whether Hamas, which receives much of its funding and weapons from Tehran, can be coaxed out of Iran's orbit. The question looks less preposterous than it did before U.S. President Barack Obama began extending olive branches to the Muslim world and Israel's Gaza offensive reshuffled Mideast politics.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059873.html

I think with that there is some kind of power play in Hamas leadership
Yesterday we saw Khaled Mashal saying they would not realease Gilad Shalit in return for permanant openings of crossings.

Jerusalem is saying there is no way they will open them without his realease.

It can be construed as a power play between Hamas leadership in hiding in Damascus and those who are in Gaza feeling the brunt of the latest operation perhaps it is some secret covert deal being offered while certain more doveish and acceptable leadership can save face.

the leadership in Gaza now have an oppertunity to make peace will it be a unilatteral ceasefire or one where they can fire a reduced amount of rockets like last time even the present ceasefire has been broken 3 times by Hamas which resulted in retaliation from Israel.
or is it because there arms shipment from Iran has been held in Limassol and with a major reduction in there tunnel infrastructure they simply are runing out of options.

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

or is it because there arms shipment from Iran has been held in Limassol and with a major reduction in there tunnel infrastructure they simply are runing out of options.

Yes, we all saw how lethal the equipment that comes through those tunnells was. It was about the election and Olmerts legacy, don't fool yourself otherwise.

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I think with that there is some kind of power play in Hamas leadership
Yesterday we saw Khaled Mashal saying they would not realease Gilad Shalit in return for permanant openings of crossings.

Jerusalem is saying there is no way they will open them without his realease.

It can be construed as a power play between Hamas leadership in hiding in Damascus and those who are in Gaza feeling the brunt of the latest operation perhaps it is some secret covert deal being offered while certain more doveish and acceptable leadership can save face.

the leadership in Gaza now have an oppertunity to make peace will it be a unilatteral ceasefire or one where they can fire a reduced amount of rockets like last time even the present ceasefire has been broken 3 times by Hamas which resulted in retaliation from Israel.
or is it because there arms shipment from Iran has been held in Limassol and with a major reduction in there tunnel infrastructure they simply are runing out of options.

I don't know the reasons behind this but I think they have realised the futility of continuing the hostility with Fatah and they now know that world leaders really don't really give a damn about Gaza. Gaza has nothing to offer them so they stand by and allow the most atrocious of Human Rights abuses take place, just like they have done in Mugabe's territory and elsewhere.

The Israeli's still are not allowing anything like the amount of aid needed to sustain life into Gaza and are failing in their duties as an occupying force to protect the occupied. The Hammas rockets, or whoever else has fired them, are a cry for help in my mind. They are pretty ineffective in causing damage compared to the 1000's of tonnes of heavy weaponry and explosives that Israel uses in return.

Now we have Netanyahu saying he will not stop the settlement building or get rid of any illegal outposts etc, etc and the people of Israel are going to vote him in .
I'm depressed at this stage with the whole fiasco .

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, we all saw how lethal the equipment that comes through those tunnells was. It was about the election and Olmerts legacy, don't fool yourself otherwise.

I'm sure the relatives of Irit Sheetrit would think that Hamas rockets were lethal enough http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2008/Hamas+ends+calm+in+south/Irit_Sheetrit.htm

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

You're spot on. Go back a year when Nasser signed a huge arms deal with Czechoslovakia and Khrushchev agreed to supply them with more if needed.
Eisenhower and the west got jittery about the commies having a foothold in the Middle East and Britain and the US withdrew their offer of funds to build the Aswan dam. Hence Nassers actions.

Israel and Egypt were both being pushed into actions by the strategic actions of the world powers of the time like the USSR, USA, britain and france.

Egypt got a huge amount of mig fighters from the eastern bloc plus russian instructors. Israel needed to keep up or risk being overwhelmed.

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

The Hammas rockets, or whoever else has fired them, are a cry for help in my mind. They are pretty ineffective in causing damage compared to the 1000's of tonnes of heavy weaponry and explosives that Israel uses in return

Mortar fire and Rocket fire are the only alternative Hamas has to sending other people's children under a delusion of 'martyrdom' into Israel and blowing themselves up in civilian areas.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Israel and Egypt were both being pushed into actions by the strategic actions of the world powers of the time like the USSR, USA, britain and france.

Egypt got a huge amount of mig fighters from the eastern bloc plus russian instructors. Israel needed to keep up or risk being overwhelmed.

Yes nothing changes much does it. The Middle East is the chessboard for the powers that be in the rest of the world.
If I'm not mistaken almost the whole of the Egyptian airforce was destroyed in that conflict.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm sure the relatives of Irit Sheetrit would think that Hamas rockets were lethal enough http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2008/Hamas+ends+calm+in+south/Irit_Sheetrit.htm

Largely home made stuff, and fairly irrelevant to the 'weapons tunnells' hype.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Mortar fire and Rocket fire are the only alternative Hamas has to sending other people's children under a delusion of 'martyrdom' into Israel and blowing themselves up in civilian areas.

The Palestinans are used by everyone

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Yes nothing changes much does it. The Middle East is the chessboard for the powers that be in the rest of the world.
If I'm not mistaken almost the whole of the Egyptian airforce was destroyed in that conflict.

Not in the Suez crisis, your thinking of the 6 day war. The egyptian airforce was practically eliminated in 3 hours, some 400+ planes destroyed, mostly on the ground.

The accounts of that morning are fascinating, especially from the Egyptian side. the official government radio station was broadcasting that the Israeli air force was being heavily defeated which encouraged the jordanian generals to start shelling Israel. Meanwhile the Nasser was sinking into a deep depression. Reading accounts of it I actually sort of felt sad for him, according to one of his aides he said that if he had known the egyptian forces weren't capable that he wouldn't have provoked israel.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Largely home made stuff, and fairly irrelevant to the 'weapons tunnells' hype.

What kind of home are Grad rockets made in?

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What kind of home are Grad rockets made in?

As I said, what they fire is "largely home made stuff". Didn't Israel claim they were smuggling in 'advanced' arms? AA, anti-tank arms? Theres been no evidence of that whatsoever. Thus, it was never about tunnells, it was about elections and political legacies.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

As I said, what they fire is "largely home made stuff". Didn't Israel claim they were smuggling in 'advanced' arms? AA, anti-tank arms? Theres been no evidence of that whatsoever. Thus, it was never about tunnells, it was about elections and political legacies.

theres film on youtube of a 20mm anti-aircraft cannon in a mosque in gaza. Also Grad rockets are manufactured in Iran under license.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

theres film on youtube

O thats that sorted then so.

Btw -

How many planes did Israel lose?
How many attack helicopers?
How many tanks?
What percentage of rockets fired are homemade?

IRISH RAIL

If you can hang on for a few hours I can get the percentage of homemade to manufactured rockets it loosly goes by rang sderot strikes would be home made and Ashkelon would be manufactured also the remnants of the rockets are forensicly examined.

paula to say the rockets are a cry for help is very wrong
these rockets are anything but.

And there have been tanks lost in Gaza before what the terrorists used to do was fill a gas cannister full of explosives and bury it in the street while waiting for one to go over
just like the three jeeps the other day which was the first breech of the "ceasefire"

Sand

Nodin, out of curiousity, why do you believe Gaza can build tens of thousands of rockets of increasing range and firepower with no or minimal imports, whereas they also apparently have no power, no infrastructure, no food, no water, no chemicals or medical goods etc etc?

How many planes did Israel lose?
How many attack helicopers?
How many tanks?
What percentage of rockets fired are homemade?

Whats your point? Israel knows how to win a war without martyrdom operations, is this news?

Mr.Micro

Sand wrote: »

Nodin, out of curiousity, why do you believe Gaza can build tens of thousands of rockets of increasing range and firepower with no or minimal imports, whereas they also apparently have no power, no infrastructure, no food, no water, no chemicals or medical goods etc etc?

I was watching BBC news the other night and in Gaza the mode of transport for some appeared to be the ass and cart. The Gaza Strip has been reduced to rubble, nay the stone age, so I cannot see much of a threat there, apart from rhetoric and a few homemade fireworks.

Sand

I was watching BBC news the other night and in Gaza the mode of transport for some appeared to be the ass and cart. The Gaza Strip has been reduced to rubble, nay the stone age, so I cannot see much of a threat there, apart from rhetoric and a few homemade fireworks.

Are you saying this woman was murdered using a few homemade fireworks? I guess her family and all the families in southern Israel can rest easy now. :rolleyes:

Why didnt the IDF hire some PR guys from this board "Shure arent we only throwing a few homemade fireworks back at them? Chill out lads!"

Christ, if some Israeli groups were firing rockets back into Hamastan as a "cry for help" there would be a 218 pages long thread on this forum filled with people screaming about genocide, apartheid and holocausts. So long as its only Israelis dying however, its not a big deal...

Serenity Now!

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I was watching BBC news the other night and in Gaza the mode of transport for some appeared to be the ass and cart. The Gaza Strip has been reduced to rubble, nay the stone age, so I cannot see much of a threat there, apart from rhetoric and a few homemade fireworks.

According to The Economist (Jan24th-30th edition), one in seven buildings were destroyed during the offensive. Thats around 15%. Still 15% too much of course but I don't think you from where you sit at the TV can adjudge Hamas as incapable of arming and re-arming from one video clip.

Soldie

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7861076.stm

The Israeli defence ministry has concealed information about the extent of illegal settlement-building in the West Bank, a leading newspaper reports.

Oops!

BlaasForRafa

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I was watching BBC news the other night and in Gaza the mode of transport for some appeared to be the ass and cart. The Gaza Strip has been reduced to rubble, nay the stone age, so I cannot see much of a threat there, apart from rhetoric and a few homemade fireworks.

Home made rockets that can kill, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2008/Victims/Roni+Yihye.htm

anti-aircraft cannon and rockets in mosque http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfTr609whl8

Mr.Micro

Sand wrote: »

Are you saying this woman was murdered using a few homemade fireworks? I guess her family and all the families in southern Israel can rest easy now. :rolleyes:

Why didnt the IDF hire some PR guys from this board "Shure arent we only throwing a few homemade fireworks back at them? Chill out lads!"

Christ, if some Israeli groups were firing rockets back into Hamastan as a "cry for help" there would be a 218 pages long thread on this forum filled with people screaming about genocide, apartheid and holocausts. So long as its only Israelis dying however, its not a big deal...

Methinks that you are overreacting a tad to my post. I cannot see what big threat Hamas is at present after the recent offensive by th IDF and I do not dispute the fact that these rockets kill and maim, nor do I think that the death of the woman is of no consequence, or do I justify their use. Neither side can have a clear conscience in this conflict IMO, as there is reaction and overreaction.

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

If you can hang on for a few hours I can get the percentage of homemade to manufactured rockets it loosly goes by rang sderot strikes would be home made and Ashkelon would be manufactured also the remnants of the rockets are forensicly examined.

paula to say the rockets are a cry for help is very wrong
these rockets are anything but.

And there have been tanks lost in Gaza before what the terrorists used to do was fill a gas cannister full of explosives and bury it in the street while waiting for one to go over
just like the three jeeps the other day which was the first breech of the "ceasefire"

I'm not saying any of it is right, but why were the tanks there in the first place, what damage did they do that time.

No one in their right mind could possibly compare the might of the Israeli army with the firepower of Hammas.

These people have been ignored, starved, humiliated and deprived of every human freedom for years. Israel have been doing the rounds of the EU and US and anyone else who would listen to them, building up the case against Hammas and the Palestinians. Their PR and spin on this issue has been very good but the situation on the ground was very different to what they were portraying.

The Israeli spin doctors never mention the daily torment that they put them through like different coloured number plates the Palestinians have on their cars and even ambulances, which have to queue for hours at hundreds of checkpoints , while the Israelis with their different coloured number plates are waved through. Their ambulances are not held up whereas people needing urgent treatment have died in the other ones. Just one of hundreds of examples.

There are far too many instances to list here but the list of cruelty is endless and who has been listening to the Palestinians ? No one except the Human Right groups who have been monitoring and documenting the abuse..

Israel created the likes of Hammas and the rockets. They used the divide and conquer technique with Gaza and the West Bank areas so that both would be easier to control and in the process created a monster.

Another point is that Hammas and their rockets bring money into Israel by way of donations from Jewish people and Jewish corporations abroad who want to "help" protect the Israeli people and from the US who bankroll them. They can all then feel virtuous because they are "helping the poor Israelis" who have to suffer so much. It also allows them to turn a blind eye to what these "poor Israelis" are doing to the occupied Palestinians.

In their their lust and greed for land they have to have a bogeyman as an excuse for the rest of the world and unfortunately the Palestinian people fit the bill.

I'm sorry if any of that sounds harsh but the more I read of the comments of Israeli people at the bottom of articles on websites like Haaretz and others, the more incensed I get and the less sympathy I have for the Israeli people.

paulaa

I've just read this, are they now hoping disease will finish off the rest of the Gazans that they didn't manage to bomb out of existence

"PARIS (Reuters) - Israel has blocked attempts to get a water purification station into Gaza and the equipment must now be brought back to France, the French Foreign Ministry said on Friday.

Foreign Ministry Spokesman Eric Chevallier said France had complained to Israel about its refusal to let in the equipment and had still not received a satisfactory explanation.

"An important amount of aid was let in (to Gaza), but for reasons which we have difficulty to explain, the water purification could not enter," he told a news conference.

"We have decided to repatriate it."

Chevallier said the equipment was badly needed in Gaza, which is reeling from a 22-day Israeli offensive. Officials had hoped to transport it across the Israel-Gaza border last Sunday but were denied access.

France summoned Israel's ambassador to complain after French diplomats were blocked for hours on the Jewish state's border with the Gaza Strip.

Chevallier said the fate of the water unit was also raised but Israel refused to budge.

"There were a very great number of steps taken at all levels to try to get the water purification station into Gaza," he said."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKTRE50T42N20090130

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Nodin, out of curiousity, why do you believe Gaza can build tens of thousands of rockets?

"tens of thousands" ?

Sand wrote: »

Whats your point??

That the lack of any such casualties on the part of Israel give the lie to the claim of 'advanced' weapons being smuggled on any significant scale.

Sand wrote: »

Israel knows how to win a war without martyrdom operations,

Considering they're a nuclear power, equipped with US level technology, fighting a bunch of AK wielding militias without a secure base, I'd hope so.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Another point is that Hammas and their rockets bring money into Israel by way of donations from Jewish people and Jewish corporations abroad who want to "help" protect the Israeli people and from the US who bankroll them. They can all then feel virtuous because they are "helping the poor Israelis" who have to suffer so much. It also allows them to turn a blind eye to what these "poor Israelis" are doing to the occupied Palestinians.

In their their lust and greed for land they have to have a bogeyman as an excuse for the rest of the world and unfortunately the Palestinian people fit the bill.

I'm sorry if any of that sounds harsh but the more I read of the comments of Israeli people at the bottom of articles on websites like Haaretz and others, the more incensed I get and the less sympathy I have for the Israeli people.

do you think the Israeli people WANT to have a large defence budget?

do you think every Israeli WANTS to have to spend time in the army?

do you think the people of Ashdod, Ashkelon and other places want to have to have to be always aware of the possibility of a rocket warning and having 30 seconds to find a shelter?

They makes sacrifices because it is necessary for security. If Hamas or anyone else provokes Israel then they should know what to expect. If Hamas really cared for the palestinian people more than they cared for their ideology then they'd quit rocket attacks. Wailing about the poor palestinian people is not going to help them, getting hamas to quit terrorist attacks will.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

do you think the Israeli people WANT to have a large defence budget?

do you think every Israeli WANTS to have to spend time in the army?

do you think the people of Ashdod, Ashkelon and other places want to have to have to be always aware of the possibility of a rocket warning and having 30 seconds to find a shelter?

They makes sacrifices because it is necessary for security. If Hamas or anyone else provokes Israel then they should know what to expect. If Hamas really cared for the palestinian people more than they cared for their ideology then they'd quit rocket attacks. Wailing about the poor palestinian people is not going to help them, getting hamas to quit terrorist attacks will.

Why do they keep voting the warmongers into power ? Why do they say that they should have finished the job this time? Those are not the actions of a people who want peace imo.

If Hammas gave up the rockets in the morning do you really believe that the Israelis would turn around and loosen the vice-like grip that they have on the Palestinians. Would they stop the theft of land or give any of the land they took over the years, back to the rightful owners. I don't think so.

Israel will only stop it's barbaric behaviour when it's forced to either by sanctions or military intervention.

What did the Palestinians of the West Bank get for their trouble ?

More of their people than ever in Israeli jails without charge including children and members of parliament,
no self determination,
more settlements being built on top of them,
an ugly apartheid wall that has destroyed Jerusalem and the countryside,
no freedom of movement,
constant harrasment by the IDF, the police and the settlers,
endless broken promises and humiliation,
the list goes on.

If Israel really cared about her own people she would start to think seriously about coming to some agreement with the Palestinians, keep her promises and start showing some integrity.
And pig will fly

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

I'm not saying any of it is right, but why were the tanks there in the first place, what damage did they do that time.

No one in their right mind could possibly compare the might of the Israeli army with the firepower of Hammas.

These people have been ignored, starved, humiliated and deprived of every human freedom for years. Israel have been doing the rounds of the EU and US and anyone else who would listen to them, building up the case against Hammas and the Palestinians. Their PR and spin on this issue has been very good but the situation on the ground was very different to what they were portraying.

The Israeli spin doctors never mention the daily torment that they put them through like different coloured number plates the Palestinians have on their cars and even ambulances, which have to queue for hours at hundreds of checkpoints , while the Israelis with their different coloured number plates are waved through. Their ambulances are not held up whereas people needing urgent treatment have died in the other ones. Just one of hundreds of examples.

There are far too many instances to list here but the list of cruelty is endless and who has been listening to the Palestinians ? No one except the Human Right groups who have been monitoring and documenting the abuse..

Israel created the likes of Hammas and the rockets. They used the divide and conquer technique with Gaza and the West Bank areas so that both would be easier to control and in the process created a monster.

Another point is that Hammas and their rockets bring money into Israel by way of donations from Jewish people and Jewish corporations abroad who want to "help" protect the Israeli people and from the US who bankroll them. They can all then feel virtuous because they are "helping the poor Israelis" who have to suffer so much. It also allows them to turn a blind eye to what these "poor Israelis" are doing to the occupied Palestinians.

In their their lust and greed for land they have to have a bogeyman as an excuse for the rest of the world and unfortunately the Palestinian people fit the bill.

I'm sorry if any of that sounds harsh but the more I read of the comments of Israeli people at the bottom of articles on websites like Haaretz and others, the more incensed I get and the less sympathy I have for the Israeli people.

sorry Paula but your not looking at any realistic facts there

they have different number plates so to be able to identify threats.
every palestinian coming into Israel must be checked.
thats not Israels doing thats there own for trying to blow up every bus train and crowd they can get to even women who recieve medical treatment have been caught trying to smuggle explosive belts in with out the treatment she would have died there is a video of her on youtube with her daughter explaining why she did it (as far as I can remember she was coerced)
Israeli cars are checked also thats a myth that they get waved through its that most people in them dont have any reason to smuggle in anybody or anything ( yet there are still Israelis who do this for money ) and a check takes quicer but yes there is preferential treatment given.
even when you are in Israel there are regular hard checkpoints like the one on the motorway into Jerusalem at the Airport turn off, every car regardless of number plate is stopped.

oh its not a freindly stop either
I once had a fight with a guy who I outranked yet he still kept me there for 30 minuites its the macho factor of hey you might be an Aluf but Im keeping you here till you respect me now empty your pockets till I see.

the spin doctors (they are on both sides ) only recently started about the psycological problems faced by the people of the south the ptsd and trauma of being kept awake all day and night in fear, something both sides civillians are subjected to. Imagine everyone on boards having some drunk banging down your front door with a car bomb every night we would all be afraid to sleep after the 3rd one.
People are listening to the palestinians just look at the Turkish minister on wed? thursday? when he walked out of the conference the only problem is no one wants to deal with Hamas they are a terrorist group and that is by the us euorupe uk etc. not just Israels word for it, its bad press when you negotiate with terrorists because your own problems at home start to get a lot worse ( like turkey and the KPP Kurds )

Israel did not create Hamas the PLO and Fatah did by there corruption and there taste for letting there own people suffer something which hamas seem to have expanded on.

I agree with you on the comments on Harraretz Theres nothing like some putz in America who thinks he is fighting for Israel behind his computer screen
then goes and puts some really racist comments on there but the same can be said about palestinian media and even here and other forums around the world i think the british call them armchair generals during the troubles in the north guys who would direct people from the luxury of there own home or safe house in damascus in Hamas case.
At least the IDF CAC went to the front and gained the troops respect for eating rasons with them not having fine food on the taxpayers expense.