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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians
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The UNpatser grey wrote: »Actually while your here please give me a reason why Israel should exist
Be more specific.patser grey wrote: »what right it has to exist where it is
Originally? A few reasons really. Before the British Mandate, Turkey controlled it. Jews moved to Palestine in the late 1800s and early 1900s due to persecution (there was persecution even in Ireland). The numbers grew with the increase in this persecution of the Jews peaking in the late 30s, legally and then following 1934 very clandestinely and illegally. Had Arab and Turkish landowners not sold land to anyone forming kibbutzim or moshavim then things would certainly have been different. Britain tried (too late) to prohibit immigration into the region. The Arabs of the region, protested Jewish existence there and one of their conditions of forming their own Arab Democratic state was the prohibition of sale of land to Jews (not very democratic that, eh?).
Post-1967? The Arab states moved to attack Israel. Israel struck first (the airbases of their enemy) and got even further than they expected due to the effectiveness of their forces. Had there not been a cold war at that time between the US and USSR, most of western Syria would also have fallen. However, this is the most contentious area where Israel defies a UN resolution pertaining to borders and has flaunted.
If you are referring to 1948 then I'd say they had no right to do so. I see why they did it though ie. enough was enough and nothing at that stage was stopping them forming their own state.patser grey wrote: »why it has the right to displace an entire people who legitimately own the land
If you are referring to 1967 then I'd say the Arab states who mobilised to attack should also be culpable for the blame of the fallout from this conflict.0 -
Hamas have got what they wanted; a heavy assault by Israel for the price of a few rockets and hundreds of Palestinian lives.
It makes good anti-Israeli propaganda which many in Europe swallow without objectivity. The timing should be noted; soon a new president will take power in the US, Obama may not have mentioned Israel yet but it's an issue he'll have to address as soon as he actually takes over in the White House.
In fairness, Israel are no slouches in the proaganda department. Any criticism of Israel is met with cries of anti-semitism, etc.
Obama has already mentioned Israel during the election. He repeated the US line about being Israels friend and ally.0 -
Another timing element to be taken into consideration is the Israeli elections in february 2009. In my view, its been a very unnecessary and disgraceful method of gaining support for getting Livni into power and Netanyahu out (hasn't been speaking much has he?). And Hamas gave them an excuse to do it this way.Hamas have got what they wanted; a heavy assault by Israel for the price of a few rockets and hundreds of Palestinian lives.
It makes good anti-Israeli propaganda which many in Europe swallow without objectivity. The timing should be noted; soon a new president will take power in the US, Obama may not have mentioned Israel yet but it's an issue he'll have to address as soon as he actually takes over in the White House.0 -
:rolleyes:In fairness, Israel are no slouches in the proaganda department. Any criticism of Israel is met with cries of anti-semitism, etc
"Any" criticism? This line is as tiresome and generalistic as those who do adhere to it.
Some of Israel's biggest and best-known critics are Israeli Jews living there or elsewhere.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »Some of Israel's biggest and best-known critics are Israeli Jews living there or elsewhere.
This maybe so, but im refering to the government, which has a top notch spin department. Since 1948, Israel has managed to portray itself as a victim of terrorism, instead of being the real perpetrator, while Israels victims have been systematically turned into terrorists. Israel bombs civilian installations in Gaza, depriving the entire population of transport, water and electricity, and it is described as an act of self-defence but any impartial observer will see this as collective punishment dispensed through state-terrorism. Innocent Israel retaliating against the Arab-terrorists and civilian casualties are collateral damage. Poor Israel, always the ‘victim’ despite the fact that it is armed with the most lethal weapons0 -
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People….
We can continue this thread for all eternity with the Palestinians did this while the Israelis did that! Both sides have killed innocent people and we all know (regardless of our political view) the number of casualties on each side.
My point here… what’s the motive for each side of this conflict to kill the other?
Israel is trying to defend its people, control the Palestinian existence by any means necessary, using the Anti-Semitic record now and again, use Judaism as a race other than being a religion (Zionism), change the historical records of the land (Palestine) to gain (sorry, steal) as much land control as possible, build as much settlements as possible on Palestinian land, ignore the 429 UN resolutions set on Israel, demand acknowledgements from the world for the right to exist, use the US PR system to cover all their (defending) activities, supplied with tones of modern heavy arm system from the US each year, demand peace treaties from Syria and Lebanon while still refusing to withdrawal from the Golan heights, and the list continues…
Palestine, is trying to defend its people by any means necessary and available to them, struggle to provide any sort of a future for its people, defend what is left of their land, fight the Israeli attempt to wipe and delete the ancient Palestinian history and culture, demand international acknowledgements for their right to exist and live as humans, happy to be supplied with any level of arms to be able to fight back, and list continues…
History repeats itself as its known to do every now and then, we have seen this happen before, the Arabs in Spain “Andalusia” (781 years), the British in Ireland (400 years), the Turks in Syria (400 years) and now the Zionist state in Palestine (80 years!). What I am trying to say here is…at the end the rightful people of Palestine will take back what was taken from them. We may not see this in our life time, but it will happen.0 -
Reminds me of that taliban quote "If you build us a killing stadium, we wouldn't have to kill people in the foot ball stadium". Hamas don't give a damn if they kill civilians.
As opposed to israel who 'accidentally' kill hundreds of civilians when they drop tonnes of high explosives on city streets crowded with innocent people.0 -
It would appear that Israel seem to pick the time when they would kill the most civilians. I don't know how there can be any sort of lasting peace when both sides seem to regard the other side as something less than human.0
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This is going to keep going and going. I don't see any sign of trust being built up between the palestinians and the Israelis if anything there is complete mistrust especially with Hamas in power.
I would love to think that things will turn out the same way as things have in the North. But if one side is capable of indescriminate suicide bombings and the other can use F-16 to bomb the **** out of a city on the basis of 1 person being killed then what hope.
It would appear to me that the israelis need to be the bigger person as it were and open up the borders to the Gaza Strip. A big risk for them. But then if it fails then they may end up with a lot more international support. At the moment they are occupying Gaza without actually occupying it by controlling the borders and air space.0 -
Maybe all the pro Israeli apologists are correct!
Another One Israeli died overnight and this time Only 51 Palestinians were killed!! Israel has a humane side after all! Progress FTW!!0 -
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patser grey wrote: »Israel is (......) terrorists.
That has little or no foundation in reality.IRISHRAIL wrote:Israel doesnt dilebritly target civillians it surgically strikes targets.
They seem to have some problem with their bullets being attracted to UN workers however.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/4534620.stmExhibit A wrote:Iain Hook, 54, of Felixstowe, Suffolk, was in a UN compound in Jenin when he was shot in November 2002.
On Friday, jurors unanimously agreed Mr Hook, who was born in Essex, had been the victim of a "deliberate" killing. Coroner Dr Peter Dean said he was so concerned by the case and the fact 13 UN workers have died in Jenin, he will write to Prime Minister Tony Blair
You still haven't answered my question as to why you think Hamas are firing rockets at Israel, I note.IRISHRAIL wrote:I wouldnt have voted for a group of terrorists that blow up busses filled with people coming home from work .
Strange, because if you've been voting in Israel, the odds are you've voted for a party with members who've done just that and a bit more besides. Various members of the Irgun and Lehi have been involved in Israeli political life over the last 50 years, so its a bit much to get on the high horse about the Palestinians.0 -
AnimalRights wrote: »Maybe all the pro Israeli apologists are correct!
Is taking a step back to sum up what, why and who keeps doing what the act of an apologist??
Ffs...:rolleyes:0 -
People….
We can continue this thread for all eternity with the Palestinians did this while the Israelis did that! Both sides have killed innocent people and we all know (regardless of our political view) the number of casualties on each side.
My point here… what’s the motive for each side of this conflict to kill the other?
Israel is trying to defend its people, control the Palestinian existence by any means necessary, using the Anti-Semitic record now and again, use Judaism as a race other than being a religion (Zionism), change the historical records of the land (Palestine) to gain (sorry, steal) as much land control as possible, build as much settlements as possible on Palestinian land, ignore the 429 UN resolutions set on Israel, demand acknowledgements from the world for the right to exist, use the US PR system to cover all their (defending) activities, supplied with tones of modern heavy arm system from the US each year, demand peace treaties from Syria and Lebanon while still refusing to withdrawal from the Golan heights, and the list continues…
Palestine, is trying to defend its people by any means necessary and available to them, struggle to provide any sort of a future for its people, defend what is left of their land, fight the Israeli attempt to wipe and delete the ancient Palestinian history and culture, demand international acknowledgements for their right to exist and live as humans, happy to be supplied with any level of arms to be able to fight back, and list continues…
History repeats itself as its known to do every now and then, we have seen this happen before, the Arabs in Spain “Andalusia” (781 years), the British in Ireland (400 years), the Turks in Syria (400 years) and now the Zionist state in Palestine (80 years!).
All very true...What I am trying to say here is…at the end the rightful people of Palestine will take back what was taken from them. We may not see this in our life time, but it will happen.
This is unfortunately the bit I disagree with, I cannot ever see a situation where the palistinian people own as much of their country as they did pre 1948, they will never even own as much of their country as they did between 1948 and 1967, they might, and I think this is a very slim possibility, get back what they had in 1967......0 -
The mother and her five small daughters who were crushed to death while they slept... yeah, they were a clear terrorist threat to Israel. Makes my blood boil. :mad:
The only thing more infuriating is the contingent of Israel apologists.0 -
As opposed to israel who 'accidentally' kill hundreds of civilians when they drop tonnes of high explosives on city streets crowded with innocent people.
How does that negate my statement.No, Israeli arabs are treated like second class citizens. It's in the OT where they're treated like black south Africans.
You see the Arabs in the occupied territories are not israelis. You need to understand this. You can say its like apartheid, but it isn't actually apartheid.To all the people who won't acknowledge Israel's appalling record when it comes to Palestine: put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. Would you be happy with how things are? And don't say you wouldn't go blowing people up because not all Palestinians do that. Just picture yourself as an everyday, ordinary Palestinian who just wants to get on with their life...
What about ordinary Israelis who just want to get on with their life? Where's their right to leave in peace. How would you feel towards a people firing rockets into your home? I'm always saddened by the people who refuse to acknowledge the appalling treatment the Israelis receive at the hands of the Palestinians.0 -
I acknowledge it fully. I feel nothing but disgust towards the fanatics on the Palestinian side. A subject of huge interest for me is the 1972 Olympics hostage-taking and it upsets me greatly to think of what the athletes went through at the hands of those murderers.
But nobody is treating Israelis like second-class citizens. Ordinary Israelis don't have to suffer the indignity of asking some 19-year-old thug soldier for permission to go to a particular place. Government-backed militia aren't bulldozing the homes of ordinary Israelis. And the Israeli retaliations are completely disproportionate, there's no two ways about it.
Surely it's not difficult to see the great injustices being perpetrated by Israel?0 -
Only after being prompted. Your acknowledgment rings hallow. And by fanatics I take it you mean the Palestinian government.I acknowledge it fully.But nobody is treating Israelis like second-class citizens. Ordinary Israelis don't have to suffer the indignity of asking some 19-year-old thug soldier for permission to go to a particular place. Government-backed militia aren't bulldozing the homes of ordinary Israelis. And the Israeli retaliations are completely disproportionate, there's no two ways about it.
yea, you're so right, I mean ordinary Jews can walk the streets of Gaza without any harm coming to them. They can happily by a house and go to the local super market and no one will cause them any harm.Surely it's not difficult to see the great injustices being perpetrated by Israel?
People driven to inhuman actions by decades of murder and the deaf ears of the international community. If it wasn't for disproportionate actions the state of Israel would be long gone.0 -
You see the Arabs in the occupied territories are not israelis. You need to understand this. You can say its like apartheid, but it isn't actually apartheid. .
'semi-apartheid' is the term I used. And as theres a two tier system (one for colonists, one for 'natives' its entirely applicable.I'm always saddened by the people who refuse to acknowledge the appalling treatment the Israelis receive at the hands of the Palestinians.
Given the scale of one versus the other, and the fact that Israel is - by its attempt at colonisation - the aggressor - you're asking us to blame the victim for stabbing the attacker. I have grave qualms about the nature of Hamas, given its religous nature, but that in no way justifies the constant nature of the Israeli oppression.0 -
yea, you're so right, I mean ordinary Jews can walk the streets of Gaza without any harm coming to them. They can happily by a house and go to the local super market and no one will cause them any harm. .
Given what went on in Gaza previous to the withdrawal, thats unlikely to happen. Unfortunate, but true.People driven to inhuman actions by decades of murder and the deaf ears of the international community.
They're colonising the West Bank etc since the late 1960's. That rather gets rid of the idea of Israel as a victim.0 -
I'm amazed people still talk about "the aggressor" and who started it. Do we really want to get into a history lesson of wars fought and lost against the Israeli state. Limiting ourselves to current events, I do believe Hamas where firing rockets into israel prior to the bombing of police stations. If I'm wrong, correct me.
Also I don't accept what you say about apartheid. If the Arabs in gaze where israeli citizens you'd have a point. As it is you don't. Separate nation.0 -
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Again, nobody is treating them like second-class citizens.yea, you're so right, I mean ordinary Jews can walk the streets of Gaza without any harm coming to them. They can happily by a house and go to the local super market and no one will cause them any harm.
Very much applicable to the Palestinians.People driven to inhuman actions by decades of murder and the deaf ears of the international community.0 -
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Only after being prompted. Your acknowledgment rings hallow. .
This is a thread about the terrorist attacks that have massacred hundreds of men, women and children and all I see from you is what about this, what about that, how come you have to be prompted to condemn the other side, blah ****ing blah. Well boo hoo that you are now being shown up as a supporter of slaughter and an Israeli apologist.
Have the guts to condemn the slaughter of civilians, no matter who they may be or elect0 -
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And Israel is still occupying the West Bank and continuing its settlement expansion. What are the underlying reasons for the conflict? Start from there and see where that takes you.I'm amazed people still talk about "the aggressor" and who started it. Do we really want to get into a history lesson of wars fought and lost against the Israeli state. Limiting ourselves to current events, I do believe Hamas where firing rockets into israel prior to the bombing of police stations. If I'm wrong, correct me.
I think he was talking about the West Bank more than Gaza. In the West Bank settlers are subject to Israeli law and have full rights however Palestinians in the West Bank are denied rights based on their ethnicity. It woulod appear the prominant anti-aparthied South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu as well as other anti-aparthied South Africans agree with this analogy.Also I don't accept what you say about apartheid. If the Arabs in gaze where israeli citizens you'd have a point. As it is you don't. Separate nation.
OthersIn 2002 Anglican Archbishop and Nobel Peace Prize winner Desmond Tutu wrote a series of articles in major newspapers,[119] comparing the Israeli occupation of the West Bank to apartheid South Africa, and calling for the international community to divest support from Israel until the territories were no longer occupied.[119]
Other prominent South African anti-apartheid activists have used apartheid comparisons to criticize the occupation of the West Bank, and particularly the construction of the separation barrier. These include Farid Esack, a writer who is currently William Henry Bloomberg Visiting Professor at Harvard Divinity School,[120] Ronnie Kasrils,[121] Winnie Madikizela-Mandela,[122] Dennis Goldberg,[123] and Arun Ghandhi,[124][125]
On 15 May 2008, 34 leading South African activists published an open letter in The Citizen, under the heading "We fought apartheid; we see no reason to celebrate it in Israel now!". The signatories, who included Kasrils and several other government ministers, COSATU General Secretary Zwelinzima Vavi, Ahmed Kathrada, Sam Ramsamy and Blade Nzimande, wrote "Apartheid is a crime against humanity. It was when it was done against South Africans; it is so when it is done against Palestinians!"[126]
On 6 June 2008, Mr. Kgalema Motlanthe, the Deputy President of the African National Congress, who had recently visited the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, told a delegation of Arab Knessed members visiting South Africa to study its democratic constitution that conditions for Palestinians under occupation were "worse than conditions were for Blacks under the Apartheid regime."[127]
In a letter to the President of the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE), Ontario, Willie Madisha, the President of COSATU wrote, "As someone who lived in apartheid South Africa and who has visited Palestine I say with confidence that Israel is an apartheid state. In fact, I believe that some of the atrocities committed against the South Africans by the erstwhile apartheid regime in South Africa pale in comparison to those committed against the Palestinians."[128]
Hendrik Verwoerd, then prime minister of South Africa and the architect of South Africa's apartheid policies, said in 1961 that "The Jews took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state." Israel was critical of apartheid through the 1950s and 60s as it built alliances with post-colonial African governments."[31][129] [130] For example, also in 1961, Israel voted for the General Assembly censure of Eric Louw's speech defending apartheid.[131][132]
Former deputy mayor of Jerusalem Meron Benvenisti relates in his 1986 book Conflicts and Contradictions that during the 1970s, an official of the South African apartheid compared Israeli-Palestinian relations to South African policy for the Transkei in a meeting. The Israeli officials present expressed shock at the comparison, and the South African official said "I understand your reaction. But aren't we actually doing the same thing? We are faced with the same existential problem, therefore we arrive at the same solution. The only difference is that yours is pragmatic and ours is ideological."[133]
In 2008 a delegation of ANC veterans visited Israel and the Occupied Territories, and said that in some respects it was worse than apartheid.[134][135] One member said "The daily indignity to which the Palestinian population is subjected far outstrips the apartheid regime." Another member, human rights lawyer Fatima Hassan, cited the separate roads, different registration of cars, the indignity of having to produce a permit, and long queues at checkpoints as worse than what they had experienced during apartheid. But she also thought the apartheid comparison was a potential "red herring".[136] Andrew Feinstein, a former ANC parliament member, was shocked to see footage of teenagers heaping abuse on and throwing stones at Palestinian children, especially done in the name of Judaism. The delegation's final formal statement made no mention of comparisons with apartheid and Dennis Davis, a high court judge, said he thought the use of the term in the Middle East context was "very unhelpful".[134]. Davis also noted that "There's no racial superiority here. There's no pervading ideology that confirms the inferiority of Palestinians." and concluded "But I think it's incredibly unhelpful to say you can simply take this to be apartheid and therefore the South African struggle is the same and the South African solution is the same. That's a very lazy form of reasoning."[137] One of the Jewish members of the delegation said that the comparison with apartheid is very relevant and that the Israelis are even more efficient in implementing the separation-of-races regime than the South Africans were, and that if he were to say this publicly, he would be attacked by the members of the Jewish community.[135].John Dugard, a South African professor of international law and an ad hoc Judge on the International Court of Justice, serving as the Special Rapporteur for the United Nations on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories described the situation in the West Bank as "an apartheid regime ... worse than the one that existed in South Africa."[94] In 2007, in advance of a report from the United Nations Human Rights Council, Dugard wrote that "Israel's laws and practices in the OPT [occupied Palestinian territories] certainly resemble aspects of apartheid." Referring to Israel's actions in the occupied West Bank, he wrote, "Can it seriously be denied that the purpose [...] is to establish and maintain domination by one racial group (Jews) over another racial group (Palestinians) and systematically oppressing them? Israel denies that this is its intention or purpose. But such an intention or purpose may be inferred from the actions described in this report."[95][96]The crime of apartheid first became part of international law in 1973 when the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (ICSPCA) was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. It defined it as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group ... over another racial group ... and systematically oppressing them."[91] Canada, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States refused to ratify it. At the outset the US stated: "[W]e cannot...accept that apartheid can in this manner be made a crime against humanity. Crimes against humanity are so grave in nature that they must be meticulously elaborated and strictly construed under existing international law..."[92]
In 2002, a different definition of the crime of apartheid was provided by Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The crime of apartheid was listed as one of several crimes against humanity, and was defined as including inhumane acts such as torture, murder, forcible transfer, imprisonment, or persecution of an identifiable group on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, or other grounds, "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."[93] This change to defining the crime of apartheid as discrimination on the grounds of national, ethnic or cultural group rather than racial group alone increased the applicability of the law to Israeli policy in the West Bank.[
Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Israel went to war. As you said the Palestinian territories were occupied by Jordan and Egypt and after the war occupied by Israel. I don't see what this has to do with anything. The Palestinians had nothing to do with the begining of the war. The Israeli occupation is still illegal under international law. Red herring if you ask me.Serenity Now! wrote: »Since you mention the "late 1960s", what happened that gave Israel the chance to expand into Syrian and Jordanian occupied Palestine?0 -
It is a known fact that in great places such as Saudi Arabia they look down their noses at the Palestinians in much the same way as a lot European countries looked down their noses at the Irish in the 19th century.
I don't know the reason for this.0 -
What about ordinary Israelis who just want to get on with their life? Where's their right to leave in peace. How would you feel towards a people firing rockets into your home? I'm always saddened by the people who refuse to acknowledge the appalling treatment the Israelis receive at the hands of the Palestinians.
Maybe if they stop annexing land and as regards the rest of your sentence you're just taking the P now. :rolleyes:0 -
Have a read about it and see. It is true though that the descrimination is far more pronounced in the occupied territories.donegalfella wrote: »This post has been deleted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid
This is completely irrelivant. Palestine is not the Arabian peninsula. Another red herring and off topic.donegalfella wrote: »By the way, have you checked out the condition of women in the rest of the Arabian peninsula? Israel is one of the very few places in the Middle East where Arab women may cast a vote. It can be said, then, that Israel is one of a very small number of Middle Eastern countries that does not treat women as second-class citizens.0 -
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and Jews since centuries ago (even in Ireland).Frankie Lee wrote: »It is a known fact that in great places such as Saudi Arabia they look down their noses at the Palestinians in much the same way as a lot European countries looked down their noses at the Irish in the 19th century0
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