1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

IRISH RAIL

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I was watching BBC news the other night and in Gaza the mode of transport for some appeared to be the ass and cart. The Gaza Strip has been reduced to rubble, nay the stone age, so I cannot see much of a threat there, apart from rhetoric and a few homemade fireworks.

and Hamas drive around in jeeps along with a lot of other people
the mode of transport in dublin was a horse and cart in Finglas the other day.

a few homemade fireworks
It took 10 kg of explosives to kill Rosemary Nelson put under her car

the same amount that is in every Quassam rocket
I will put up a challenge to anyone who would like
that they go to southern Israel stay in Sderot for a few days
when they come back if they still thik they are fireworks or harmless things or not very advanced whatever terminology you use then I will donate to the gaza aid programme.
some how I think my money is safe.

BlaasForRafa

post withdrawn.

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

sorry Paula but your not looking at any realistic facts there

they have different number plates so to be able to identify threats.
every palestinian coming into Israel must be checked.
thats not Israels doing thats there own for trying to blow up every bus train and crowd they can get to even women who recieve medical treatment have been caught trying to smuggle explosive belts in with out the treatment she would have died there is a video of her on youtube with her daughter explaining why she did it (as far as I can remember she was coerced)
Israeli cars are checked also thats a myth that they get waved through its that most people in them dont have any reason to smuggle in anybody or anything ( yet there are still Israelis who do this for money ) and a check takes quicer but yes there is preferential treatment given.
even when you are in Israel there are regular hard checkpoints like the one on the motorway into Jerusalem at the Airport turn off, every car regardless of number plate is stopped.

oh its not a freindly stop either
I once had a fight with a guy who I outranked yet he still kept me there for 30 minuites its the macho factor of hey you might be an Aluf but Im keeping you here till you respect me now empty your pockets till I see.

the spin doctors (they are on both sides ) only recently started about the psycological problems faced by the people of the south the ptsd and trauma of being kept awake all day and night in fear, something both sides civillians are subjected to. Imagine everyone on boards having some drunk banging down your front door with a car bomb every night we would all be afraid to sleep after the 3rd one.
People are listening to the palestinians just look at the Turkish minister on wed? thursday? when he walked out of the conference the only problem is no one wants to deal with Hamas they are a terrorist group and that is by the us euorupe uk etc. not just Israels word for it, its bad press when you negotiate with terrorists because your own problems at home start to get a lot worse ( like turkey and the KPP Kurds )

Israel did not create Hamas the PLO and Fatah did by there corruption and there taste for letting there own people suffer something which hamas seem to have expanded on.

I agree with you on the comments on Harraretz Theres nothing like some putz in America who thinks he is fighting for Israel behind his computer screen
then goes and puts some really racist comments on there but the same can be said about palestinian media and even here and other forums around the world i think the british call them armchair generals during the troubles in the north guys who would direct people from the luxury of there own home or safe house in damascus in Hamas case.
At least the IDF CAC went to the front and gained the troops respect for eating rasons with them not having fine food on the taxpayers expense.

I experienced the checkpoints first hand. It took 3 hours to get through and there was an ambulance about 4 cars ahead of us with an elderly man who had heart problems. The ambulance staff had to keep opening the doors because it was boiling that day. They ran out of oxygen and the man died despite their efforts to keep him alive an hour before we got to the actual checkpoint. In the meantime Israeli cars were sailing by us.
He wasn't much of a threat now was he.

Can you imagine the trauma and the terror that the Gazans are suffering after the 24/7 bombings from land, sea and air and with no nice little shelters to run to because even they were being bombed. I doubt that even enteres Israeli minds while they're whinging about a hole in their gardens.

Erdogan was complaining about Peres getting 20 minutes to speak and he was only given 10 and he doesn't give a damn about the Palestinians any more than Israel does. If he was so upset with Israel he would have cancelled his order for Israeli drones and not do business with them at all.

I worked with a subsidiary of Unrwa after the first gulf war as a volunteer in Diyarbakır, Turkey. The Kurds had been run into the mountains of Northern Iraq/ Eastern Turkey by Saddam. They had nothing and the temps were way below freezing. I saw the Turkish "hospitality" given to the Kurds at that time and tbh Gaza reminded me so much of that. Their human rights record equals Israels so I wouldn't be fooled by anything they say either.No wonder they've not been let into the EU yet. Negotiating with terrorists didn't do the North any harm and eventually led to peace. Problem is there's no money in peace.


As to Haaretz comments there's plenty of putzs in Tel Aviv making the same kind of comments on there as well.

I have no interest in the military aspect of this or any other conflict but I am concerned that in this stage of our evolution, states that are supposed to be highly developed can inflict such barbarity on other humans. I wouldn't treat a mongrel dog like the Palestinian people are treated and I don't even like dogs.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

So maybe finally we get to what you really want to see. What...Syria attack Israel....Egypt?....Iran.....a nice little war to teach those nasty Israelis a lesson?

See Blaas, there you go again, Mystic Meg.
What I really want to see is some semblance of civilisation return to Israel/ Palestine where there's mutual respect and equality. As I said pigs will fly.

Nothing has worked so far and Israel has consistently ignored Un resolutions and even calls from her allies to comply. Sanctions are the next step, and some kind of intervention to act as a buffer between both sides, maybe a UN peacekeeping force like the Green line in Cyprus. Definitely not more aggression.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Can you imagine the trauma and the terror that the Gazans are suffering after the 24/7 bombings from land, sea and air and with no nice little shelters to run to because even they were being bombed. I doubt that even enteres Israeli minds while they're whinging about a hole in their gardens.

Holes in their gardens????

You expect us to feel sympathy for the palestinians yet you show absolutely none for the Israeli people killed by rocket attacks.

All this stuff the anti-israeli posters here say about halloween fireworks....these halloween fireworks that Hamas make kill people too.

And perhaps you wonder why Israelis have "nice little shelters"? Its because Israel cares for its people more than Hamas cares for its people who it uses as pawns in its crazy war with Israel.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

See Blaas, there you go again, Mystic Meg.
What I really want to see is some semblance of civilisation return to Israel/ Palestine where there's mutual respect and equality. As I said pigs will fly.

Nothing has worked so far and Israel has consistently ignored Un resolutions and even calls from her allies to comply. Sanctions are the next step, and some kind of intervention to act as a buffer between both sides, maybe a UN peacekeeping force like the Green line in Cyprus. Definitely not more aggression.

As you see I withdrew the post before you even replied as I considered that probably wasn't the subtext to your statement.

However sanctions are a ridiculous idea, a state under terrorist attack should not be worthy of sanctions being imposed on it.

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

I experienced the checkpoints first hand. It took 3 hours to get through and there was an ambulance about 4 cars ahead of us with an elderly man who had heart problems. The ambulance staff had to keep opening the doors because it was boiling that day. They ran out of oxygen and the man died despite their efforts to keep him alive an hour before we got to the actual checkpoint. In the meantime Israeli cars were sailing by us.
He wasn't much of a threat now was he.

I would love to agree with you but these didnt look much of a threat either.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2Cmvy4V6o
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3160145,00.html
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=okU0ZaSO6L8

Can you imagine the trauma and the terror that the Gazans are suffering after the 24/7 bombings from land, sea and air and with no nice little shelters to run to because even they were being bombed. I doubt that even enteres Israeli minds while they're whinging about a hole in their gardens.

Its not just holes in the ground you know it and so do I
the gazans have only had it for a month
Israelis have it for years

Erdogan was complaining about Peres getting 20 minutes to speak and he was only given 10 and he doesn't give a damn about the Palestinians any more than Israel does. If he was so upset with Israel he would have cancelled his order for Israeli drones and not do business with them at all.

according to all the news sources I can find your reckoning is wrong

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Turkish-Prime-Minister-Recep-Tayyip-Erdogan-Leaves-World-Economic-Forum-Over-Isreal-Gaza-Row/Article/200901415213659?lpos=World_News_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15213659_Turkish_Prime_Minister_Recep_Tayyip_Erdogan_Leaves_World_Economic_Forum_Over_Isreal_Gaza_Row_

I worked with a subsidiary of Unrwa after the first gulf war as a volunteer in Diyarbakır, Turkey. The Kurds had been run into the mountains of Northern Iraq by Saddam. They had nothing and the temps were way below freezing. I saw the Turkish "hospitality" given to the Kurds at that time and tbh Gaza reminded me so much of that. Their human rights record equals Israels so I wouldn't be fooled by anything they say either.No wonder they've not been let into the EU yet. Negotiating with terrorists didn't do the North any harm and eventually led to peace. Problem is there's no money in peace.

I confess to not knowing much about the turjish problem
but something people have to realise is Hamas are not the IRA
there was never a charter from the IRA that said it had to make england cease to exist.


As to Haaretz comments there's plenty of putzs in Tel Aviv making the same kind of comments on there as well.

I agree all over the world on both sides

I have no interest in the military aspect of this or any other conflict but I am concerned that in this stage of our evolution, states that are supposed to be highly developed can inflict such barbarity on other humans. I wouldn't treat a mongrel dog like the Palestinian people are treated and I don't even like dogs.

`

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Holes in their gardens????

You expect us to feel sympathy for the palestinians yet you show absolutely none for the Israeli people killed by rocket attacks.

All this stuff the anti-israeli posters here say about halloween fireworks....these halloween fireworks that Hamas make kill people too.

And perhaps you wonder why Israelis have "nice little shelters"? Its because Israel cares for its people more than Hamas cares for its people who it uses as pawns in its crazy war with Israel.

It's quite clear what you think of Palestinians so I don't expect anything from you.

If the positions were reversed I would feel exactly the same for Israelis treated like sub humans and were being slaughtered by people who had stolen their land and were trying to exterminate them.

I've said it before, if Israel cared about her people they would at least make some attempt to bring peace to them. As it is they are bringing them nothing but the prospect of being shunned and treated like butchers especially as most of the adult population are militarized by conscription.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

As you see I withdrew the post before you even replied as I considered that probably wasn't the subtext to your statement.

However sanctions are a ridiculous idea, a state under terrorist attack should not be worthy of sanctions being imposed on it.

Yes I only saw that after I posted the reply.

Why? Palestine has sanctions against it. It's a lot cleaner than more warfare and there would be no excuse for the other countries you mentioned to get involved.

sukikettle

Paulaa the Israelis are destined to be shunned by the world...it says so in the bible. The world is in for a nasty shock when they play out their hatred for Israel.The Jewish are favoured by God and you need to look how they are intrinsically involved on the world stage. They are clever, wealthy influential and all by design.

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

It's quite clear what you think of Palestinians so I don't expect anything from you.

If the positions were reversed I would feel exactly the same for Israelis treated like sub humans and were being slaughtered by people who had stolen their land and were trying to exterminate them.

I've said it before, if Israel cared about her people they would at least make some attempt to bring peace to them. As it is they are bringing them nothing but the prospect of being shunned and treated like butchers especially as most of the adult population are militarized by conscription.

Israel is not trying to exterminate the palestinians come on you know thats too far

How do you get peace with someone whos main aim is to dystroy your people and country ?
I was shunned yes I was even recognised by someone on westmoreland street who screamed murderer at me not very nice.
but one night in a pub a guy was asking me what did I do in Israel when I told him he started screaming and having a go all I said was he is entitled to have his opinion.
he turned around and said "I expected you to say that"
he stopped shouting when he realsised I wasnt getting dragged into a debate over somewhere 3000 miles away, and I respected his opinion he got me a drink and said if it was the other way around the palestinian would probably have stabbed him by now.
nice guy I wonder if he was gay

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

`


I would love to agree with you but these didnt look much of a threat either.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2Cmvy4V6o
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...160145,00.html
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=okU0ZaSO6L8

Its not just holes in the ground you know it and so do I
the gazans have only had it for a month
Israelis have it for years


according to all the news sources I can find your reckoning is wrong

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...real_Gaza_Row_

I confess to not knowing much about the turjish problem
but something people have to realise is Hamas are not the IRA
there was never a charter from the IRA that said it had to make england cease to exist.

I agree all over the world on both sides

In all fairness how long has it been since a suicide bomb attack ? a year ?

This man was dead and 2 soldiers were strolling up and down for at least half an hour before he died, with an armoured car or whatever you call them across the road. It reminds me of the bombing of graveyards in Gaza. How much more dead do they want them ?

A large bucket of salt I would take Erdogan's words with. It worked wonders for his ratings at home ans probably more votes in the next election.

The Palestinians have had it for decades.Plus being evicted from their land, their houses demolished, their land and crops vandalised and their livelihoods destroyed. No comparison. But then you know that in your heart.

I had no time for the IRA either but maybe it was because the British didn't uses the extreme methods that Israel does that it was a little easier to solve.
And as some have said they didn't carpet bomb Belfast either.

paulaa

sukikettle wrote: »

Paulaa the Israelis are destined to be shunned by the world...it says so in the bible. The world is in for a nasty shock when they play out their hatred for Israel.The Jewish are favoured by God and you need to look how they are intrinsically involved on the world stage. They are clever, wealthy influential and all by design.

What design would that be ?

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Israel is not trying to exterminate the palestinians come on you know thats too far

How do you get peace with someone whos main aim is to dystroy your people and country ?
I was shunned yes I was even recognised by someone on westmoreland street who screamed murderer at me not very nice.
but one night in a pub a guy was asking me what did I do in Israel when I told him he started screaming and having a go all I said was he is entitled to have his opinion.
he turned around and said "I expected you to say that"
he stopped shouting when he realsised I wasnt getting dragged into a debate over somewhere 3000 miles away, and I respected his opinion he got me a drink and said if it was the other way around the palestinian would probably have stabbed him by now.
nice guy I wonder if he was gay

lol How much did he have to drink

You could say that about Israel as well so it works both ways. I would count bombing the cr*p out of people who had no escape as an attempt at extermination.
The best weapon that Israel has at the moment is Mark Ragev. He would bore you to death with his monotonous voice.
Sorry, I'm being facetious

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

In all fairness how long has it been since a suicide bomb attack ? a year ?

The last one was 4th feb 2008 in dimona the next one could be tomorrow Israelis cant afford to take chances on security.

This man was dead and 2 soldiers were strolling up and down for at least half an hour before he died, with an armoured car or whatever you call them across the road. It reminds me of the bombing of graveyards in Gaza. How much more dead do they want them ?

when you dig tunnels under a grave yard what do you expect to happen asking how much more dead do you want them is childish.

A large bucket I would take Erdogan's words with. It worked wonders for his ratings at home ans probably more votes in the next election.

so by that do you think anyone who voices support for palestinians is only doing it "for the ratings"

The Palestinians have had it for decades.Plus being evicted from their land, their houses demolished, their land and crops vandalised and their livelihoods destroyed. No comparison. But then you know that in your heart.

They havent had rockets coming over dozens of times a day for decades
they havent had F15`S PHANTOMS AND F16`S over there citys all day.
I know in my heart if they wanted peace they could have it.
Compare it to northern Ireland now and at the next election everyone voting for thr real IRA when the fighting restarts they can only blame themselves

I had no time for the IRA either but maybe it was because the British didn't uses the extreme methods that Israel does that it was a little easier to solve.
And as some have said they didn't carpet bomb Belfast either.

And Israel didnt carpet bomb Gaza

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

lol How much did he have to drink

You could say that about Israel as well so it works both ways. I would count bombing the cr*p out of people who had no escape as an attempt at extermination.
The best weapon that Israel has at the moment is Mark Ragev. He would bore you to death with his monotonous voice.
Sorry, I'm being facetious

But they did have an escape the IDF phoned them telling them to leave what did Hamas do.
They rounded up everyone they could and brought them into the building.


He did have a bit btw:p

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

The last one was 4th feb 2008 in dimona the next one could be tomorrow Israelis cant afford to take chances on security.

when you dig tunnels under a grave yard what do you expect to happen asking how much more dead do you want them is childish.

so by that do you think anyone who voices support for palestinians is only doing it "for the ratings"


They havent had rockets coming over dozens of times a day for decades
they havent had F15`S PHANTOMS AND F16`S over there citys all day.
I know in my heart if they wanted peace they could have it.
Compare it to northern Ireland now and at the next election everyone voting for thr real IRA when the fighting restarts they can only blame themselves

And Israel didnt carpet bomb Gaza

As I said a year ago.

I would need proof that there were tunnel under the graves. As tht won't be forthcoming I'll reserve judgement.

No I don't believe that everyone is after votes but Turkey is not noted for support for the oppressed. Anyway Peres and him seemingly have kissed and made up so the drones deal will go ahead. Business as usual.

They have had worse, systematic discrimination, random executions, unfair incarcaration without trial, starvation etc,etc, etc

We could also say the same of Israel, they insist on voting in war mongers, they get war.

Anyway I'm off to bed. Thanks for the debate.

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

But they did have an escape the IDF phoned them telling them to leave what did Hamas do.
They rounded up everyone they could and brought them into the building.


He did have a bit btw:p

and then shelled it. Yep they really gave them a chance.

Now I'm really off. nite

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

and then shelled it. Yep they really gave them a chance.

Now I'm really off. nite

same time tomorrow then :P

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

do you think the Israeli people WANT to have a large defence budget?

do you think every Israeli WANTS to have to spend time in the army?

do you think the people of Ashdod, Ashkelon and other places want to have to have to be always aware of the possibility of a rocket warning and having 30 seconds to find a shelter?

They makes sacrifices because it is necessary for security. If Hamas or anyone else provokes Israel then they should know what to expect. If Hamas really cared for the palestinian people more than they cared for their ideology then they'd quit rocket attacks. Wailing about the poor palestinian people is not going to help them, getting hamas to quit terrorist attacks will.

All of them? No. But an element are willing to pay the price, and have others pay it, to get land in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem it seems. Compared to what the Palestinians suffer, its a fairly small price at that.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Is most of the adult population are militarized by conscription.

as I said before do you f*****g think the israeli people WANT to have to be conscripted?

They do it because the fate of their country depends on it. If Israel slackened off then the fate of another Yom Kippur war would be final and complete for the Israelis. And its not just the jews that would lose, its the Druze and the Bedouins as well.

If Israel wasn't strong then the arab countries surrounding it would destroy it utterly. You just don't seem to damn well understand that.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

We could also say the same of Israel, they insist on voting in war mongers, they get war.

If Hamas had half a clue and really cared about the palestinian people they would make concessions to Livni/Barak before the election. Because no matter what happened in the last month they surely must know what letting Netanyahu take power will do to the situation?

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

The best weapon that Israel has at the moment is Mark Ragev. He would bore you to death with his monotonous voice.
Sorry, I'm being facetious

At least he's easier on the ear than those beardy ranting guys that Hamas put up in front of the camera.

I prefer Major Liebovitz, she's rather cute :P

paulaa

" Hamas agrees to year-long Gaza truce from Thursday

Hamas has accepted an Egyptian proposal for a year-long truce with Israel in Gaza starting on Thursday, Al-Arabiya TV Sunday quoted sources in the Islamist militant group as saying.

A Hamas delegation is expected to arrive in Cairo on Monday in order to give the group's final answer to the initiative.

The official spokesman for Egypt's foreign ministry, Hossam Zaki, refused to confirm or deny the report on the Dubai-based Arabic satellite television station.

According to the report, Hamas has agreed to the deployment along Gaza's border crossings of forces under the control of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who heads the rival Fatah movement.

The deal stipulates that the PA forces will coordinate their activities with Hamas.

Hamas' acceptance of the deal apparently led Abbas to cancel a trip to the Czech Republic and travel to Cairo instead.

Al-Arabiya reported that while in Egypt, Abbas discussed mechanisms that would enable the Gaza-Egypt border crossing at Rafah to be opened on Thursday, in parallel with an announcement by Hamas of the year-long truce in Gaza.

Israel, according to the report, has agreed not to interfere in the running of the Egypt-Gaza border crossing. "


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060589.html

IRISH RAIL

Will it be a real ceasefire or one where they can fire rockets and say they kept to it?

paulaa

Who knows what either side will do but at least it's a start.

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Who knows what either side will do but at least it's a start.

Why not now? Why Thursday? To excuse another few days of a salvo over the border and kick it all off again? Thats what these nutters seem to be trying to do right now given today's shennanigans.

paulaa

Straight from the (israeli) horse's mouth

"MI Chief: Hamas adhering to cease-fire, but smaller Gaza groups undeterred


Military Intelligence Chief Amos Yadlin said Sunday that while Israel's offensive on the Gaza Strip had indeed deterred Hamas, other radical groups in the coastal territory were still looking to escalate hostilities.

"Two weeks following the cease-fire, militants from groups other than Hamas are challenging it and carrying out attacks aimed at renewing escalation," Yadlin told cabinet ministers. "

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Straight from the (israeli) horse's mouth

"MI Chief: Hamas adhering to cease-fire, but smaller Gaza groups undeterred


Military Intelligence Chief Amos Yadlin said Sunday that while Israel's offensive on the Gaza Strip had indeed deterred Hamas, other radical groups in the coastal territory were still looking to escalate hostilities.

"Two weeks following the cease-fire, militants from groups other than Hamas are challenging it and carrying out attacks aimed at renewing escalation," Yadlin told cabinet ministers. "

Perhaps the Gazan Hamas leaders have drawn a line in the sand as it seems the Damascus leadership was looking to volunteer Gaza for more trouble
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060313.html

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Perhaps the Gazan Hamas leaders have drawn a line in the sand as it seems the Damascus leadership was looking to volunteer Gaza for more trouble
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060313.html

Maybe Israel's actions over the last month have created another monster that neither they or Hamas will be able to control.

Hamas seem to be making some effort while Israel's leaders continue with the warmongering rhetoric that would make any of those "beardy ranting guys" proud.