1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Maybe Israel's actions over the last month have created another monster that neither they or Hamas will be able to control.

Hamas seem to be making some effort while Israel's leaders continue with the warmongering rhetoric that would make any of those "beardy ranting guys" proud.

Hamas is making an effort NOT TO FIRE ROCKETS AT ISRAEL.

Bravo Hamas!.......

Its more likely that since 2 of the 5 senior Gazan Hamas leaders were killed in the last month and hundreds of their fighters that the IDF attacks have had the desired effect on the Gazan leadership.

Nodin

And let us not forget the dividend being paid to Abbas for being "peaceful"......Like this...

<H2>Israel plans to build up West Bank corridor on contested land
Israel has invested close to NIS 200 million during the past two years in preparing infrastructure for construction of housing units to create a contiguous block between Ma'aleh Adumim and East Jerusalem.

The neighborhood of Mevaseret Adumim, slated to be built on Area A1, has so far not been built because of strong American opposition. However the construction of a police base in May 2008 opened a window for massive construction in the area.

It is doubtful all this construction was meant to serve several hundred policemen and civilians traveling to the headquarters daily. The building of the police station, which was done with all required permits, appears to have been a necessary stage in the "claiming" of A1 ahead of constructing residential neighborhoods there.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060392.html

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hamas is making an effort NOT TO FIRE ROCKETS AT ISRAEL.

Bravo Hamas!.......

Its more likely that since 2 of the 5 senior Gazan Hamas leaders were killed in the last month and hundreds of their fighters that the IDF attacks have had the desired effect on the Gazan leadership.

Does it really matter why at this stage, as long as someone is making some moves for peace.

Now if someone could just have a word in Israel's ear that trying to win votes over the dead bodies of children is not the way to win friends, we might get somewhere.

I'm glad that some Americans finally seem to waking up to the facts of what Israel has been really doing with their tax dollars.
Read some of the 2000+ comments on here under the article

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/main4749723.shtml

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Maybe Israel's actions over the last month have created another monster that neither they or Hamas will be able to control.

Hamas seem to be making some effort while Israel's leaders continue with the warmongering rhetoric that would make any of those "beardy ranting guys" proud.

Firing mortar rounds and rockets is not "making an effort".
Anyone who thinks Hamas have no control over these 'factions' is deluded.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Firing mortar rounds and rockets is not "making an effort".
Anyone who thinks Hamas have no control over these 'factions' is deluded.

What proof do you have of that ?

paulaa

Nodin wrote: »

And let us not forget the dividend being paid to Abbas for being "peaceful"......Like this...


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060392.html

Yes and this is what he has been cosying up to :rolleyes:

"
This is not another report by Peace Now or another investigative report by the media. It is an official document, drafted by a retired senior officer, Baruch Spiegel, on orders from former defense minister Shaul Mofaz. It casts a heavy shadow over Israel's pro-peace statements, while raising questions about its official position that "the use Israel makes of land for the settlements accords with all the rules and norms of international law. Privately-owned land has not been expropriated for the sake of establishing the settlements."
Advertisement
The harsh findings were hidden from the public for two years due to the brazen argument that their exposure would undermine the country's security and its foreign relations. But is the revelation of Israel's ongoing land theft and its seizure of territory supposedly under negotiation what undermines its security, or the crooked behavior itself? Is enabling the public to exercise its right to know that the authorities are systematically violating their international commitments to stop settlement expansion, especially outside the "blocs," what undermines Israel's foreign relations, or the very fact that such deceit is occurring? "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060150.html

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

What proof do you have of that ?

They can execute alleged Fatah informers yet show no will to restrain these 'renegade' brigades, eh? What now? Civil war between them as Hamas grow precious on their 'cease'fire hitting the u-bend?

Did you not hear what Alan Johnston had to say before he got kidnapped about these alleged splinter groups? Too bad.

Yep, they're all just misunderstood heroes with a true heart of gold.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

They can execute alleged Fatah informers yet show no will to restrain these 'renegade' brigades, eh? What now? Civil war between them as Hamas grow precious on their 'cease'fire hitting the u-bend?

Did you not hear what Alan Johnston had to say before he got kidnapped about these alleged splinter groups? Too bad.

Yep, they're all just misunderstood heroes with a true heart of gold.

Well if you say so, I didn't say that.

What efforts are Israel making ?
Threatening more air strikes to "finish off the job".
Continuing to block all aid efforts into the strip.
Continuing to starve the people of anything that might keep them alive and make their already shattered lives more bearable.

The EU really needs to stop negotiating with them on the "Action Plan" , where "Israel is eligible for €14 million in European Community financial cooperation over the next seven years."
http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/israel/index_en.htm

What they need to do is slap sanctions on Israel asap,stop the special treatment with regards to preferential customs rates, etc and refuse to deal with them (like Turkey) until they start behaving like a democracy.

I would urge anyone who feels that what Israel is doing is wrong to lobby their MEPs
http://www.europarl.ie/irish.html

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

What efforts are Israel making ?

Are you trying to justify a continuation of mortar and rocket fire into Israel or something?
By calling Hamas irresponsible, disgustingly stupid and insistant on continuing the vicious circle, I'm not justifying any aggression by Israel. I don't want Israel to bombard Gaza and didn't agree with their doing this in the first place.
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of people like yourself claiming they (Hamas) are looking for a peaceful means to an end when its plainly bloody obvious they are seeking what they want by anything but. Saying they'll stop attacking Israel (I don't think they'll ever take the PLO route, to be honest) by demanding (with gleeful support from Syria) that Israel gives up, amongst other areas, the Golan Heights (which it never will as they will never leave themselves open for attack from that side again). And if Likud get back into power, expect an augmentation of the violence. Thats not a threat. Its the plain obvious.
I agree with Jeremy Bowen an expert on the region from the BBC. No negotiation can be made while aggression is in full flow. The first seemingly impossible task is for Hamas to drop arms and go cahoots with Fatah. Despite your (I'm pretty sure it was you) claim that Hamas have wanted this, there is no evidence at the moment that this is likely. On Israel's side, firstly settlements must be dealt with in West Bank and East Jerusalem. At least according to the last agreement in Oslo.
Unfortunately as long as Hamas remain at threat to Israeli life, they will be treated as they are now. Their meeting with Iran will not go down well with those attempting to mediate either, particularly Saudi Arabia, US and Egypt.

paulaa

I might believe some of that SN if what I originally thought the reason for the Israeli aggression to Gaza hadn't been confirmed. The disproportionate use of force against the civilians and the reported use of new and illegal weapons was a practice run for bigger things.
Israel won't stop until they drag us all into their battles .

ISRAEL'S ambassador to Australia has described his country's military offensives in Gaza as a "preintroduction" to tackling the military threat posed by a nuclear-equipped Iran.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24987076-2703,00.html

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

I might believe some of that SN if what I originally thought the reason for the Israeli aggression to Gaza hadn't been confirmed. The disproportionate use of force against the civilians and the reported use of new and illegal weapons was a practice run for bigger things.
Israel won't stop until they drag us all into their battles

The four more likely reasons for the offensive have been linked here. Of course, they've been immersed in all the hypocritical and sanctimonious pontification since but hey, not my fault.

Taking out a nuclear installation (as in Iraq before) would not require a fraction of resources that Israel used on Gaza so I believe this ambassador in Aussie was just using it as an excuse to highlight that they still watch their enemy, Iran.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

The four more likely reasons for the offensive have been linked here. Of course, they've been immersed in all the hypocritical and sanctimonious pontification since but hey, not my fault.

Taking out a nuclear installation (as in Iraq before) would not require a fraction of resources that Israel used on Gaza so I believe this ambassador in Aussie was just using it as an excuse to highlight that they still watch their enemy, Iran.

lol poorest excuse I've heard yet for an Israeli official putting his foot in it.
Probably a fundraiser so he had to give them something to look forward to.

As to your pathetic "hypocritical and sanctimonious pontification" claims, it's mild compared to the blatent propaganda being touted here as fact.

Lift the occupation and siege of Gaza and then I might agree that Israel is serious about her motivations and her bleatings about "wanting peace".

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

lol poorest excuse I've heard yet for an Israeli official putting his foot in it.
Probably a fundraiser so he had to give them something to look forward to.

As to your pathetic "hypocritical and sanctimonious pontification" claims, it's mild compared to the blatent propaganda being touted here as fact.

Lift the occupation and siege of Gaza and then I might agree that Israel is serious about her motivations and her bleatings about "wanting peace".

Israel has been quite open about strikes on Iran if they get close to having a nuclear weapon. The iranian leadership (and the americans) were quite shocked when the IAF did a full scale dry run over the med last year. This may be one reason why Iran is pushing its proxies over the last few months to attack Israel. While the worlds attention is on Gaza, no-one is paying attention to the Iranians.

Also there is no occupation of Gaza, the troops have pulled out. Unless you missed that happening...

The blockade will remain until Hamas stop trying to re-arm. Already ships from Iran have been detained in the red sea and Limassol, that does not show willingness on behalf of Hamas for peace. It merely shows that they MAY have a truce while they re-arm.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Also there is no occupation of Gaza, the troops have pulled out. Unless you missed that happening...

The occupation is a real thing. Israel controls Gaza's borders (with collusion with Egypt), air space and sea access. To deny the occupation is nothing short of hilarity.

Then there is of course the occupation East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The blockade will remain until Hamas stop trying to re-arm. Already ships from Iran have been detained in the red sea and Limassol, that does not show willingness on behalf of Hamas for peace. It merely shows that they MAY have a truce while they re-arm.

So does this justify state terrorism against 1.5 million people?

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Lift the occupation and siege of Gaza and then I might agree that Israel is serious about her motivations and her bleatings about "wanting peace".

And when Hamas stop firing rockets and HE mortar rounds into Israel backing up these claims for wanting peace then they'll be considered as being genuine.
Its ironic that people like you tout propaganda in reply yet spout it just as much.

Pa-bloody-thetic.

Nodin

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I agree with Jeremy Bowen an expert on the region from the BBC. No negotiation can be made while aggression is in full flow.

Your idea of what constitutes aggression seems fairly one sided.

This here looks like aggression to me.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060392.html

BlaasForRafa wrote:

Also there is no occupation of Gaza,

But there is a siege of Gaza and an occupation of the West Bank etc.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Israel has been quite open about strikes on Iran if they get close to having a nuclear weapon. The iranian leadership (and the americans) were quite shocked when the IAF did a full scale dry run over the med last year. This may be one reason why Iran is pushing its proxies over the last few months to attack Israel. While the worlds attention is on Gaza, no-one is paying attention to the Iranians.

Also there is no occupation of Gaza, the troops have pulled out. Unless you missed that happening...

The blockade will remain until Hamas stop trying to re-arm. Already ships from Iran have been detained in the red sea and Limassol, that does not show willingness on behalf of Hamas for peace. It merely shows that they MAY have a truce while they re-arm.

Yes I did miss it because it hasn't happened yet.
The siege will probably stay until they have killed another few thousand from starvation and disease

It's a game of rhetoric from both countries. It's laughable that Israel should be complaining about anyone else having nuclear capabilities when they themselves spent years building just the same thing in the Negev and lying about it to all and sundry.

BTW they are hoping to attract 250,000/500,000 settlers to the Negev, to live on land that was the traditional home and grazing grounds of the Bedouins until they were forced out.

paulaa

Serenity Now! wrote: »

And when Hamas stop firing rockets and HE mortar rounds into Israel backing up these claims for wanting peace then they'll be considered as being genuine.
Its ironic that people like you tout propaganda in reply yet spout it just as much.

Pa-bloody-thetic.

When you get over the labelling of "people like me" then I might take you seriously, until then I'll just ignore your rants

turgon

The tit-for-tat fighting continues despite the cease fire according to Reuters, link.

Apparently Hamas/militants couldnt resist the urge to continue firing rockets into Israel.

Fishtits

Well when the average Palestinian awoke to tend his olive trees and found that his land had been summarily been given to someone else...

How would you feel?

turgon

/sighs

paulaa

The Israelis never really stopped did they ? While the "leaders" were threatening more and "disproportionate" actions in Gaza the IDF were continuing unabated.
Just from Jan 18th to Jan 24th (from another forum but all verifiable)

1.Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer in Khuza''a east of Khan Yunis on Jan 18
2. Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer east of Jabalia on Jan 19
3. Israeli naval gunboats shelled the Gaza coast line, causing damage to civilian structures on Jan 21
4. Israeli troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City on Jan 22
5. Israeli gunboat fire injured 4-7 Palestinian fishermen on Jan 22
6. Israeli shelling set a Palestinian house on fire on Jan 22
7. Israeli tanks fired on the border town of Al Faraheen, causing damage to homes and farms on Jan 24

Oh Yes and don't forget they haven't lifted the siege yet either and are still trying to starve the Gazans into submission.

Sand

So verify them - Both sides have violated the ceasefire many time since it was declared. The Palestinians were back launching mortars at Israel and firing at IDF soldiers on January 20th, the very day after the ceasefire come into force.

One such attack that is verified and widely reported is the IED attack on Jan 27th that killed an IDF soldier and wounded several others.

That you only present IDF violations of the ceasefire, well... draw your own conclusions as to the value of your post.

paulaa

I was sure some of you people would be along like a flash to tell us what the Palestinians did so I didn't really see the point of doing your job for you.

As to verifying the points in my last posts well they have been posted on this thread already, but you must have missed them.

I think my post is as valuable as anyone else's here. This is a democracy not like Israel

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Oh Yes and don't forget they haven't lifted the siege yet either and are still trying to starve the Gazans into submission.

You've conveniently ignored the Palestinian attacks which is typical.

And starve them into submission. typical hysterical bs.

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

I was sure some of you people would be along like a flash to tell us what the Palestinians did so I didn't really see the point of doing your job for you.

As to verifying the points in my last posts well they have been posted on this thread already, but you must have missed them.

I think my post is as valuable as anyone else's here. This is a democracy not like Israel

Israel is a democracy unlike the dictatorships (including the west bank and gaza which are virtual one party states both of which have gotten rid of opposition by violent means)

If things were your way Israel and its people wouldn't exist.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You've conveniently ignored the Palestinian attacks which is typical.

And starve them into submission. typical hysterical bs.

As I said they had been mentioned in the post I replied to and I knew others would be along to clarify.

If not starving, then what would you call it ?
The borders are still sealed, very little aid is getting in to feed the huge numbers of displaced people whose homes were bombed. Up to 60% of arable land and crops have been destroyed and animals have been killed so that people cannot feed themselves.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-those-who-seek-justice-do-so-in-vain-1522993.html

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Israel is a democracy unlike the dictatorships (including the west bank and gaza which are virtual one party states both of which have gotten rid of opposition by violent means)

If things were your way Israel and its people wouldn't exist.

sigh :rolleyes:
We've been here before Blaas.
If I had my way Israel would act like a true democracy and treat all people as equal.
Both you and I know that they treat the Arabs like dirt and to say otherwise is lying

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

The Israelis never really stopped did they ? While the "leaders" were threatening more and "disproportionate" actions in Gaza the IDF were continuing unabated.
Just from Jan 18th to Jan 24th (from another forum but all verifiable)

1.Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer in Khuza''a east of Khan Yunis on Jan 18
2. Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer east of Jabalia on Jan 19
3. Israeli naval gunboats shelled the Gaza coast line, causing damage to civilian structures on Jan 21
4. Israeli troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City on Jan 22
5. Israeli gunboat fire injured 4-7 Palestinian fishermen on Jan 22
6. Israeli shelling set a Palestinian house on fire on Jan 22
7. Israeli tanks fired on the border town of Al Faraheen, causing damage to homes and farms on Jan 24

Oh Yes and don't forget they haven't lifted the siege yet either and are still trying to starve the Gazans into submission.

You will forgive me if I dont believe ramallah online the source of those reports
if you check not much of that is verifiable.
Israel responded to attacks which it is entitled to do so it didnt "carry on unabated"
one side is responsible for braking the ceasefire that is hamas
no amount of bad journolism or propoganda will change that as the worlds media are watching the situation and see that hamas have been first again to break it.

irishbran77

It seems the only way pro-Israelis defend the actions of the State of Israel is to label all its opponents as terrorist sympathizers, then to repeat endlessly like a cult chant that Hamas is aiming to destory Israel. It's funny but I think it works with alot of people.

Cults base themselves on such 'persausive' tools. I didn't think the word 'defence' would be more abused than when America invaded Iarq, but I guess I've been proved wrong.