1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

I have met John Ging and he is one of the most genuine people I've ever met, totally dedicated to his job and a genuine caring person. He has worked in several "hot spots" in the world under atrocious conditions and is no way naive.
As to the bombing of the UN schools, Israel has changed it's story so many times that I'll only believe the final report when it comes out.

he's certainly got his facts wrong in this case.

The fog of war affected what happened in the case of the school. Soldiers get fired on by mortars from a certain direction. buildings block a direct line of sight so they can't see if its from the schoolyard or the lane next to the schoolyard. The goc south get word on the radio that fire came from the school but they won't get the story first hand till the front line troops rotate back and they're debriefed. Its not a surprise that the story changed but in this era of instant news updates every scrap of news is grabbed and put out as soon as possible by the news agencies.

And we'll see if and when a fair report comes out. The un report on jenin certainly disproved the Hamas and ngo claims in that case so we'll see what happens in this case.

TOMASJ

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Are you kidding me? Read your statement again and check in with reality.

Hamas are the ones who purposely fired from civilian areas. Hamas are the ones who drove their trucks towards crowds of civilians so iaf pilots wouldn't fire, Hamas are the ones who publicly said that the people of Gaza are a human shield and theres video evidence of all of those in this very thread.

My goodness, how I wonder did those conscientious IDF heroes manage to kill so many children and women in Gaza

youcrazyjesus!

Fog of war is a pathetic and short sighted excuse. Israels army must be the worst in the world with all
the fog of war incidents which results in the attacking women and children

Will prob get told off for this but I think it would be a good idea for anyone is in the IDF
or a reservist to state their interest. Might help neutral parties frame the debating going
on here a bit better.

.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

he's certainly got his facts wrong in this case.

The fog of war affected what happened in the case of the school. Soldiers get fired on by mortars from a certain direction. buildings block a direct line of sight so they can't see if its from the schoolyard or the lane next to the schoolyard. The goc south get word on the radio that fire came from the school but they won't get the story first hand till the front line troops rotate back and they're debriefed. Its not a surprise that the story changed but in this era of instant news updates every scrap of news is grabbed and put out as soon as possible by the news agencies.

And we'll see if and when a fair report comes out. The un report on jenin certainly disproved the Hamas and ngo claims in that case so we'll see what happens in this case.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

he's certainly got his facts wrong in this case.

The fog of war affected what happened in the case of the school. Soldiers get fired on by mortars from a certain direction. buildings block a direct line of sight so they can't see if its from the schoolyard or the lane next to the schoolyard. The goc south get word on the radio that fire came from the school but they won't get the story first hand till the front line troops rotate back and they're debriefed. Its not a surprise that the story changed but in this era of instant news updates every scrap of news is grabbed and put out as soon as possible by the news agencies.

And we'll see if and when a fair report comes out. The un report on jenin certainly disproved the Hamas and ngo claims in that case so we'll see what happens in this case.

So if the "fog of war" was that no one was really sure of what happened, or even if the IDF were fired on at all, why did Israel automatically lie instead of saying they were waiting for reports from the area ? It's no wonder that so many people find it difficult to believe anything they say anymore and it looks as if they have something to hide.
Perhaps they should work on that aspect of their PR Campaign.

BlaasForRafa

The palestinians certainly have their pr campaign out in full flow thats for sure with seemingly everyone with an agenda willing to jump on every unverified claim and lie from them.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The palestinians certainly have their pr campaign out in full flow thats for sure with seemingly everyone with an agenda willing to jump on every unverified claim and lie from them.

I think the Palestinians have more on their minds atm than worrying about PR campaigns, like trying to keep themselves alive despite Israel's best efforts to stare them to death.

Most people here just want to know the truth, from both sides.
As none of us are in Gaza atm, all we can go on are the various media reports. If there are constant conflicting reports from Israel then what do they expect us to think only that they lie.

IRISH RAIL

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Will prob get told off for this but I think it would be a good idea for anyone is in the IDF
or a reservist to state their interest. Might help neutral parties frame the debating going
on here a bit better.

.

would that be nuteral parties like you?

Yogabba

How can anyone take anything that Ging or any other UNRWA employee says seriously?

Remember this?:

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115

Say no more.

Nodin

Yogabba wrote: »

How can anyone take anything that Ging or any other UNRWA employee says seriously?

Remember this?:

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115

Say no more.

So because a school teacher was secretly a member of a subversive organisation, the whole teaching proffession, the schools and everyone else is guilty....Hmmmmm...I can see a problem or two with that 'logic'...

Yogabba

Not a question of being guilty. But they obviously don't have much of a clue what's going on.
How many Hamas members are employed by the UNRWA?

My goodness, how I wonder did those conscientious IDF heroes manage to kill so many children and women in Gaza

Have you been asleep for the past months?
Have you missed completely that Hamas often braggs about using human shields?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hamas-tried-to-hijack-ambulances-during-gaza-war/2009/01/25/1232818246374.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Very heroic eh.

Nodin

Yogabba wrote: »

Not a question of being guilty. But they obviously don't have much of a clue what's going on..

Theres only so much screening an organisation can do.

Yogabba wrote: »

Have you been asleep for the past months?
Have you missed completely that Hamas often braggs about using human shields?..

But what Hamas may or may not have done in that context doesn't justify Israels actions, not over the last few weeks or the last 40 years.

Yogabba

So why should we take what they seriously, if they can miss something so significant????

And what actions are you talking about?
Israel defending what is rightly theirs?
Don't forget that the land we're talking about never belonged to the people now calling themselves Palestinians.
If Israel wanted to, they could have taken the Gaza strip and the Westbank in -67.

Hamas kill their own people. Israelis do all they can to protect civilians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT7qrWkQO28

Nodin

Yogabba wrote: »

So why should we take what they seriously, if they can miss something so significant????

If he never engaged in such activities in his role, why should they know? Or care, for that matter.

Yogabba wrote: »

And what actions are you talking about?
Israel defending what is rightly theirs?????

Killing large numbers in whats essentially an electoral ploy for Kadima.

Yogabba wrote: »

Don't forget that the land we're talking about never belonged to the people now calling themselves Palestinians.

They've been calling themselves that for a considerable period of time - longer than theres been "Israelis". And it does indeed belong to them, as many of those families can trace documents back to the days of the Ottoman empire.

Yogabba wrote: »

If Israel wanted to, they could have taken the Gaza strip and the Westbank in -67.

They did, as far as I know. They didn't annex it, as that would have too many Palestinians within the borders of Israel than they desired.

Yogabba wrote: »

. Israelis do all they can to protect civilians.

Their own civillians. Others don't quite receive the same sort of attention.

paulaa

Yogabba wrote: »

Not a question of being guilty. But they obviously don't have much of a clue what's going on.
How many Hamas members are employed by the UNRWA?

Have you been asleep for the past months?
Have you missed completely that Hamas often braggs about using human shields?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hamas-tried-to-hijack-ambulances-during-gaza-war/2009/01/25/1232818246374.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Very heroic eh.

Many people in Ireland who were closet IRA members, were teachers, police, army, civil servants etc. It didn't stop them doing the jobs they were being paid to do and in most cases no one had any idea of what they were up to in their spare time, including their families.

Are you saying that UNWRA is complicit in knowingly employing militants, because that is a very serious accusation to make.

The IDF frequently use civilians as human shields, you must have missed post #3361.
Also have you forgotten this.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/Timeline_of_Events.asp

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3387356,00.html

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/israel-uses-palestinians-human-shields

As you say very heroic !!!

Yogabba

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_gaza_hamas_un

wes

Yogabba wrote: »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_gaza_hamas_un

As I have said before, Hamas are some real scum.

paulaa

Yogabba wrote: »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_gaza_hamas_un

Ah you're back !!! You disappeared this morning rather than answer your replies :rolleyes:

Hammas are not doing themselves ot the Palestinian people any favours if these reports are true.
What are they doing with these supplies , are they giving them to the people who really need them ?

On another note, now we have the Israeli Housing and Construction Minister Ze'ev Boim, calling for the assassination of Hamas elected Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and Defense Minister Ehud Barak okaying new settlements on the West Bank.

"According to Boim, killing Haniyeh could bring about a similar response to the one that followed the assassination of another group leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004. While that attack brought about fierce international criticism, it also brought about a long period of perplexity, Boim said.

A public call such as Boim's could contribute to serious security threats and could also cause Haniyeh and other Hamas leaders to go deeper into hiding, making it more difficult for Israel to target them.

Former Israel Defense Forces chief of staff Moshe Ya'alon lambasted Boim for making such a declaration. "We have many options, and in Boim's place, I would not have brought them into the public eye," he told Army Radio. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061410.html



"Defense Minister Ehud Barak has agreed to approve the establishment of a new settlement in the Binyamin region in return for settlers' agreement to evacuate the illegal outpost of Migron. The Migron settlers will move into the new 250-house settlement after leaving the illegal one they built on private Palestinian land.

Today there are 45 families living in Migron, with only two living in permanent housing and the rest in trailers.

The first stage of construction of the new West Bank community will incorporate 50 houses until permission is received for further construction. In order to build the settlement, a detailed construction plan incorporating 1,400 housing units will have to be approved.

The new site is a kilometer away from the built-up section of the Adam settlement, located east of the separation fence. The establishment of the new community violates the conditions of the Road Map, as well as Ariel Sharon's commitments to President George W. Bush in 2003."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061358.html

Yogabba

The IDF frequently use civilians as human shields, you must have missed post #3361.

You are missing the point. Hamas are doing it to their own people.
If they are willing to do that to the population that elected them, then how on earth will they ever be able to live in peace with Israel?

Nodin

Yogabba wrote: »

You are missing the point. Hamas are doing it to their own people.
If they are willing to do that to the population that elected them, then how on earth will they ever be able to live in peace with Israel?

There are many elements within Palestinian society and Hamas, much as there are within Israeli society. To point at the extreme of either and say peace is impossible cuts both ways.

paulaa

Yogabba wrote: »

You are missing the point. Hamas are doing it to their own people.
If they are willing to do that to the population that elected them, then how on earth will they ever be able to live in peace with Israel?

No. You're missing the point if you think that might be what's standing in the way of peace.

It has not been in Israel's interest to have "peace" and they have done everything in their power to stop it in the last 60 years.

Their aim is to either to have one state for the Jewish people with the native population as 2nd class citizens, or to have a separate state of Palestine WHEN, and only when, they have finished appropriating the best of the land for themselves.

They have never stopped building settlements,demolishing Palestinian homes and running them off the land that they have farmed and lived on for centuries so that the Palestinians are refugees in their own land.
All this in defiance of the world community and even their few allies. This is how they thank the world for giving them a home .

They refuse to define the borders of Israel so that they can continue with this land grab.

Israeli's says that there is no state of Palestine, so if they believe that, then they are in effect, treating their own Arab citizens the same way South Africa treated it's native peoples and the American South treated the blacks.

I don't know why they are surprised when they're called an apartheid state

IMO they want land , not peace, at any cost.

paulaa

Seemingly, the IDF are now "Purging officers details from their documents" to avoid prosecution for war crimes. What would they have to hide in a "just war"
It reminds me of other instances of Israel trying to re-write history by destroying deeds and documents of Palestinian ownership of lands that they stole.

The "Shining Light" of the Middle East just gets dimmer by the day !!!!

" Fearing court action, IDF begins purging officer details from documents


The Israel Defense Forces has begun removing the names and details of army officers involved in Operation Cast Lead from legal documents, Haaretz has learned.

Several orders of temporary custody for Gaza detainees, submitted to the Be'er Sheva district court, had the names and military ID numbers of the signatory officers blacked out.

The censor's office issued sweeping gag orders on the names of all officers who participated in the operation, fearing their identification would expose them to legal action abroad.

Civil rights lawyer Tamar Peleg-Shrik said such details have not been censored before, and that the move indicates the IDF's concerns. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061759.html

concussion

Hamas have managed to 'mistakenly' steal hundreds of tonnes of aid from the UN. Odd move that, maybe they thought the UN wouldn't distribute it properly

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7875171.stm

wes

concussion wrote: »

Hamas have managed to 'mistakenly' steal hundreds of tonnes of aid from the UN. Odd move that, maybe they thought the UN wouldn't distribute it properly

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7875171.stm

Probably realized that taking the food made them look bad, so decided to give it back.

irishbran77

Am I the only one who thinks that the only means a pro-Israel supporter has to debate this issue is through ad hominem attacks and the old bait and switch trick?

If we criticisie Israel, they say look at 'Iran' or 'China'. We condemn those other countries and come back to Israel, they say we focus too much on Israel. And finally, if we say that 1300 deaths in a month is 'excessive' or over 5000 in a decade compared to about 100 on the Israeli side is indefensible, they say 'it's all Hamas's fault for making us do it''.

To be honest, it reminds be of abused women being told by a bully of a boyfriend 'why do you bring out the worse in me? why do you make me hit you.'

paulaa

irishbran77 wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks that the only means a pro-Israel supporter has to debate this issue is through ad hominem attacks and the old bait and switch trick?

If we criticisie Israel, they say look at 'Iran' or 'China'. We condemn those other countries and come back to Israel, they say we focus too much on Israel. And finally, if we say that 1300 deaths in a month is 'excessive' or over 5000 in a decade compared to about 100 on the Israeli side is indefensible, they say 'it's all Hamas's fault for making us do it''.

To be honest, it reminds be of abused women being told by a bully of a boyfriend 'why do you bring out the worse in me? why do you make me hit you.'

No, you're not the only one but you have forgotten a few things. The accusations of anti-semitisim and reminders of the Holocaust when people refuse to be swayed by propaganda.

Every forum I've read in the last few years you see the exact same excuses for Israeli actions being used, almost word for word. Strange that !!! :P

irishbran77

"The accusations of anti-semitisim and reminders of the Holocaust when people refuse to be swayed by propaganda."

In the past ten years I think something terrible has happened. The right has declared war on reason. Obviously it's an older war but it's becoming so more accepted in the passed decade. Now we have a situation in which even the most obvious idea, like Israel shouldn't kill 300 children in response to three deaths, is a topic to be debated. We've reached such a relativistic stage in the world that murdering innocents can be seen as defensible.

That's why I think accusations of anti-semitism and reminders of the Holocaust haven't been used as often outside of Israel itself. Because it's not necessary anymore. Pro-Israel supporters know they're right, and their job isn't to convince us but to simply parrot it over and over.

Imagine talking to someone who doesn't believe you exist! If that person hasn't already realised early on in the discussion that you exist, there's no point trying to come up with smart or strong arguments! If Israelis think killing 1300 people, or over 4000 in the past 8 years in revenge for nearly 100 Israeli deaths, then I honestly don't think sane and compassionate people can do anything.

paulaa

irishbran77 wrote: »

"The accusations of anti-semitisim and reminders of the Holocaust when people refuse to be swayed by propaganda."

In the past ten years I think something terrible has happened. The right has declared war on reason. Obviously it's an older war but it's becoming so more accepted in the passed decade. Now we have a situation in which even the most obvious idea, like Israel shouldn't kill 300 children in response to three deaths, is a topic to be debated. We've reached such a relativistic stage in the world that murdering innocents can be seen as defensible.

That's why I think accusations of anti-semitism and reminders of the Holocaust haven't been used as often outside of Israel itself. Because it's not necessary anymore. Pro-Israel supporters know they're right, and their job isn't to convince us but to simply parrot it over and over.

Imagine talking to someone who doesn't believe you exist! If that person hasn't already realised early on in the discussion that you exist, there's no point trying to come up with smart or strong arguments! If Israelis think killing 1300 people, or over 4000 in the past 8 years in revenge for nearly 100 Israeli deaths, then I honestly don't think sane and compassionate people can do anything.

Sane doesn't even come into it and morality and compassion are all too obvious by their absence.

It's understandable from an Israeli point of view when they are fed information and justifications for slaughter. Like Chief Rabbi to the IDF handing out leaflets to the troops "implicitly sanctioning the killing of civilians"
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=83782&sectionid=351020202

Or the philosopher, Prof. Asa Kasher of Tel Aviv University who sees nothing wrong in killing any amount of Palestinians to protect the lives of soldiers. The posters who gave feedback to the following article seem to believe that International laws are outdated and should be changed to allow mass killings

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062127.html

Unbelievable for a "civilised" country to even think this way !!!

irishbran77

I think this article in Haaretz uses the term 'enemy civilians.' This is the first time I've seen it but when the more liberal paper in Israel uses such language you know you should be afraid.

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

No, you're not the only one but you have forgotten a few things. The accusations of anti-semitisim and reminders of the Holocaust when people refuse to be swayed by propaganda.

Every forum I've read in the last few years you see the exact same excuses for Israeli actions being used, almost word for word. Strange that !!! :P

I forgot defending your country from daily rocket attacks is not allowed how silly of me.

irishbran77

You see! This is how they defend the actions of Israel against Gaza. Israel broke the truce(s) far more than Hamas did. The Israel state killed far more innocent people than Hamas did prior to the invasion. In fact Hamas actually reduced the violence on thier part and stopped all suicide bombings for dozens of months... despite them being a bunch of medieval twats, they did try tot o keep their side of the bargain moreso than Israel.