1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

paulaa

irishbran77 wrote: »

I think this article in Haaretz uses the term 'enemy civilians.' This is the first time I've seen it but when the more liberal paper in Israel uses such language you know you should be afraid.

Yes, that's what I thought. The feedback to those articles in Haaretz and other Israeli media is very enlightening.

BTW If anyone is interested, the Jewish Professor and author Ilan Pappe is speaking in Trinity College next Wednesday night on "The ongoing Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. What next? " He is now living in exile in the UK because of the death threats he received in Israel.

Democracy?? :rolleyes:

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I forgot defending your country from daily rocket attacks is not allowed how silly of me.

There's no need to slaughter everyone in that country to attain your goals, well not in civilised countries anyway.

Ever heard of dialogue and compromise and most importantly, respect for other human beings right to live??

irishbran77

Israeli Professor Arnon Soffer, head of the Israel Defense Force's National Defense College, speaking to the Jerusalem Post in 2004 about Israel's unilateral pullout from Gaza:

"We will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire 10 in response. And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed. After the fifth such incident, Palestinian mothers won't allow their husbands to shoot Qassams, because they will know what's waiting for them.

Second of all, when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful.[/FONT]

It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day...If we don't kill, we will cease to exist...Unilateral separation doesn't guarantee "peace"--it guarantees a Zionist-Jewish state with an overwhelming majority of Jews.

paulaa

irishbran77 wrote: »

Israeli Professor Arnon Soffer, head of the Israel Defense Force's National Defense College, speaking to the Jerusalem Post in 2004 about Israel's unilateral pullout from Gaza:

"We will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire 10 in response. And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed. After the fifth such incident, Palestinian mothers won't allow their husbands to shoot Qassams, because they will know what's waiting for them.

Second of all, when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful.[/FONT]

It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day...If we don't kill, we will cease to exist...Unilateral separation doesn't guarantee "peace"--it guarantees a Zionist-Jewish state with an overwhelming majority of Jews.

The only thing I can say to this is, if my neighbour was talking like that he would be in a locked ward for paranoid delusional psychotics, before he could do anyone any harm.

Isn't this much the same as the "Hammas Charter" that the Pro-Israeli's are always rabbiting on about

irishbran77

irishbran77 wrote: »

You see! This is how they defend the actions of Israel against Gaza. Israel broke the truce(s) far more than Hamas did. The Israel state killed far more innocent people than Hamas did prior to the invasion. In fact Hamas actually reduced the violence on thier part and stopped all suicide bombings for dozens of months... despite them being a bunch of medieval twats, they did try tot o keep their side of the bargain moreso than Israel.

It always comes down to a scoring match with these sorts of discussions. Israel broke these ceasefires, and different Palestinian groups broke other ceasefires. Then comes the numbers of deaths, and then the methods of attacks on both sides.

And somewhere along all of this its forgotten that they're as bad as each other, and neither side is really committed to finding a peaceful resolution. I don't think we've ever really seen any realistic movements from Palestinians, or Israeli's to stop the fighting. Sure, momentary pauses where both sides re-arm, and then it all begins anew.

Paddy Samurai

Suff wrote: »

155 killed as Israel launches air strikes in Gaza Strip

Up to 40,000 killed in the bombing of dresden (ww2)

140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki (WW2)

2750 people in the twin towers

Up to 1000000 in rwanda

Up to 8000 in Srebrenica

Everyone can quote the numbers,but the unfortunate reality is once a conflict starts there will always be innocent civilians that end up dying.It happens in every conflict and probably will continue into the forseeable future.Given the high population density within the palestinian areas the dead toll is not surprising however regretable it is.
However one thing that always strikes me is that when these tragic events occur ,is the rush by the aggrieved side to use it as a justification for the wrongs they themselves commit against innocent civilians.

The real people responsible for this continuing tragedy and all the civilians deaths are the Israelis,the UN,the USA,the Arab nations and the palestinians themselves.And with so many vested interests involved this festering sore will continue to weep for the forseeable future ,if not till armageddon.

IRISH RAIL

irishbran77 wrote: »

You see! This is how they defend the actions of Israel against Gaza. Israel broke the truce(s) far more than Hamas did. The Israel state killed far more innocent people than Hamas did prior to the invasion. In fact Hamas actually reduced the violence on thier part and stopped all suicide bombings for dozens of months... despite them being a bunch of medieval twats, they did try tot o keep their side of the bargain moreso than Israel.

What planet was that truce on because it certanily was not on this one.
yes hamas did stop homocide boombers but then they started firing rockets.
they did not stop firing in june but carried on.
they were attempting to carry out a kidnapping in Israel when the IDF got them before they could hurt anyone.
they blatently broke the latest ceasefire and continue to do so while stealing the aid sent for civilians. they did not try to keep to there side of the bargain to believe that is pathetic simple as.

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

There's no need to slaughter everyone in that country to attain your goals, well not in civilised countries anyway.

Ever heard of dialogue and compromise and most importantly, respect for other human beings right to live??

Hamas does not believe in compromise as can be seen from the latest attacks while they are on "ceasefire". also they dont want Israel to exist as can be seen in thier charter. and Israel does not and did not slaughter everyone in Gaza.

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Hamas does not believe in compromise as can be seen from the latest attacks while they are on "ceasefire". also they dont want Israel to exist as can be seen in thier charter. and Israel does not and did not slaughter everyone in Gaza.

If you are honest IR, you would agree that Israel doesn't really want peace either. They won't define their borders because then they wouldn't get to take more land illegally. They broke the last ceasefire on November 4th. They are still bombing in Gaza today, the siege still continues, they still make incursions into Gaza and have now decided that farmers can't farm their own land within 1 Km of the Gazan border. If they do they are shot on sight. That's more land taken from the Palestinians

It was very nice of them not to kill everyone, they spared the wounded, maimed, orphaned and terrorized ones only to continue trying to starve them out.
I suppose they'll get most of them the next time.

Look, if Israelis wanted peace they wouldn't keep voting in warmongers, all of whom try to outdo each other in how vicious, brutal and sadistic they can be to the Palestinians. But then you know all this.

IRISH RAIL

ther estill bombing targets in gaza today because they are RESPONDING to hamas attacks surely you can see this a 1km buffer zone is there to help stop rocket attacks hamas have used these areas frequntley in the past hopefully this will only be a temporary measure.

I think you will find its Hamas who are starving the palestinians when they steal the aid sent in it wasnt the first time they have done that.

you calling them warmongers doesnt make them so if hamas continue attacks then Israel must respond the people are calling for an end to these attacks and the government could no longer sit idly by and do nothing while rockets rained down.

IRISH RAIL

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

ther estill bombing targets in gaza today because they are RESPONDING to hamas attacks surely you can see this a 1km buffer zone is there to help stop rocket attacks hamas have used these areas frequntley in the past hopefully this will only be a temporary measure.

And hamas are responding to the closure of the checkpoints, the attacks, the inspections etc. For every action that Hamas and Israel does, they will be responding to a previous attack. Hence why it never stops.

I think you will find its Hamas who are starving the palestinians when they steal the aid sent in it wasnt the first time they have done that.

nah, they'll hand out the food to the people, and it will be Hamas who is the saviours of the people, not the foreign and unhelpful UN.

you calling them warmongers doesnt make them so if hamas continue attacks then Israel must respond the people are calling for an end to these attacks and the government could no longer sit idly by and do nothing while rockets rained down.

Face it, the war is not going to stop until Hamas is forced to stop their attacks. And this will never happen as long as Israel responds with violence.

I used to feel the same way as you do. Look back on my older posts. But I've come to realise that the only way that Hamas and other groups will cease to fight is when the Palestinian people demand that they stop. And Israel attacking back only gives the Palestinian people a reason to continue supporting these militant groups. Israel can never hope to settle this war through force of arms.

irishbran77

Irish Rail... 'homicide bomber'!! Didn't Fox news use that for a while but then dropped it due to it being rediculed by all and sundry!?!

IRISH RAIL

irishbran77 wrote: »

Irish Rail... 'homicide bomber'!! Didn't Fox news use that for a while but then dropped it due to it being rediculed by all and sundry!?!

I wouldnt know I dont watch fox
and while you are at it
why would it be ridiculed these people go out to murder with a bomb strapped to them. therefore homocide bomber is quite acceptable to think otherwise is extremely naive.

irishbran77

'Homocide bomber' could be any person who plants a bomb designed to kill. The point of using 'suicide bomber' is to distinguish it by its most obvious characteristic. Honestly, 'homocide bomber' is just a phrase given to fox news by the benjamin netanyahu. Why would you sabotage your own public opinions by saying something as dumb and as cliched as that?

paulaa

Everyday life in Gaza now. I'm sure all you reservists posting on this thread will be proud of your comrades and their treatment of unarmed Gazan farmers and human rights workers !!!

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Everyday life in Gaza now. I'm sure all you reservists posting on this thread will be proud of your comrades and their treatment of unarmed Gazan farmers and human rights workers !!!

Very convenient that those do-gooders were there to film that. but there isn't any context put on this, we can't know if there were any attacks in that area on that day and a bunch of people in flak jackets with high-visability vests over them is going to raise suspicion.

And I have certainly no sympathy for those "human rights workers", some idiot yelling into a megaphone is NOT going to calm a situation down.

by-the-by Moshe Dayan is on the front cover of Military History magazine this month, the question posed on the cover is "Is Israel unbeatable", the general consensus being, yes.

bobbyjoe

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Very convenient that those do-gooders were there to film that. but there isn't any context put on this, we can't know if there were any attacks in that area on that day and a bunch of people in flak jackets with high-visability vests over them is going to raise suspicion.

And I have certainly no sympathy for those "human rights workers", some idiot yelling into a megaphone is NOT going to calm a situation down.

by-the-by Moshe Dayan is on the front cover of Military History magazine this month, the question posed on the cover is "Is Israel unbeatable", the general consensus being, yes.

Don't see any flak jackets. I suppose the high vis vest is to identify themselves. Stop shouting through the megaphone because its annoying!!!! Being shot at must be more annoying!!

Israel is unbeatable. They have nukes. Everyone knows that. Yet the claim the Palestinians are trying to commit genocide with their crappy rockets.

irishbran77

"Very convenient that those do-gooders were there to film that."

Actually, NGOs are giving out cheap camcorders to locals in particularly dangerous areas so that they can document the daily abuse they receive at the hands of settlers. It was necessary since there was no authority that the Palestinians could report attaks to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7451691.stm

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Very convenient that those do-gooders were there to film that. but there isn't any context put on this, we can't know if there were any attacks in that area on that day and a bunch of people in flak jackets with high-visability vests over them is going to raise suspicion. .

I know that some of the Palestinians really are crap at "terrorism" but somehow I can't see them putting on high visibility jackets and standing around somebody with a loud hailer in full view of the IDF.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And I have certainly no sympathy for those "human rights workers", some idiot yelling into a megaphone is NOT going to calm a situation down. .

No, I mean resorting to peaceful protest...what are they thinking....

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Very convenient that those do-gooders were there to film that. but there isn't any context put on this, we can't know if there were any attacks in that area on that day and a bunch of people in flak jackets with high-visability vests over them is going to raise suspicion.

And I have certainly no sympathy for those "human rights workers", some idiot yelling into a megaphone is NOT going to calm a situation down.

by-the-by Moshe Dayan is on the front cover of Military History magazine this month, the question posed on the cover is "Is Israel unbeatable", the general consensus being, yes.

You can't change the fact Blaas that the glorious IDF are shooting at unarmed civilians, who obviously had noting to hide because they are wearing flourescent hi-vis jackets.

Whether there were attacks in the area or not, it is obvious to even the most feeble minded that these people had nothing to hide.

I would rate the HRW people as a lot more brave than cowardly soldiers shooting at unarmed civilians from a distance.

paulaa

irishbran77 wrote: »

"Very convenient that those do-gooders were there to film that."

Actually, NGOs are giving out cheap camcorders to locals in particularly dangerous areas so that they can document the daily abuse they receive at the hands of settlers. It was necessary since there was no authority that the Palestinians could report attaks to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7451691.stm

I have seen loads of those videos on YouTube where this violence of the illegal settlers, particularly during the olive harvest is well documented. Some show the IDF standing by, protecting the settlers while they are beating the farmers

They might be called as one of the best armies in the world, but they score a -10 when it comes to morality.

paulaa

paulaa wrote: »

Everyday life in Gaza now. I'm sure all you reservists posting on this thread will be proud of your comrades and their treatment of unarmed Gazan farmers and human rights workers !!!

All it shows is some truck going down the road and then the shots are fired. Nothing to suggest that it is the IDF. In fact it could easily have been the farmer who owned the field warning them off. Frankly if the IDF were shooting at the crowd with a rifle, the person with the loudspeaker or any of the people holding their hands in the air would have been shot. Literally. Nobody was injured. So to be looks like a staged publicity stunt of some sort.

bobbyjoe wrote:

Israel is unbeatable. They have nukes. Everyone knows that.

Unbeatable? Yes, but not for the nukes. Nukes are useless.. They're not going to be beaten through warfare, but through problems with their economy and a withdrawal of support by foreign nations.

bobbyjoe wrote:

Yet the claim the Palestinians are trying to commit genocide with their crappy rockets

Genocide through the rockets? That's retarded. If they wanted genocide, they'd have gotten chemical or biological payloads for their rockets. The Palestinians use the rockets to get the Israeli's to respond with conventional attacks, which in turn cause civilian casualties, thereby promoting their cause of being the victims. If the palestinian rockets actually did any significant damage they would lose support and thats not in their interests.

Nodin wrote:

I know that some of the Palestinians really are crap at "terrorism" but somehow I can't see them putting on high visibility jackets and standing around somebody with a loud hailer in full view of the IDF.

Nope, that would be the westerners who come in looking to get palestinians killed for a PR buzz...

Nodin wrote:

No, I mean resorting to peaceful protest...what are they thinking....

Seems more like rattling the tigers cage looking for a reaction. There's nothing to suggest that these "human rights workers" weren't in a prescribed area, or that the IDF were firing warning shots to get them out of a minefield. That little video looks staged, and if indeed it was, this group is likely to pick a spot where they know they shouldn't be, and will get a reaction...

Considering the IDF's ability to kill civilians, I'm amazed none of the people in the video were shot or wounded... curious don't ya think?

Paulaa wrote:

They might be called as one of the best armies in the world, but they score a -10 when it comes to morality.

I don't see you allocating morality points to Hamas, or the other Palestinian groups... strange.

paulaa

Deleted User wrote: »

All it shows is some truck going down the road and then the shots are fired. Nothing to suggest that it is the IDF. In fact it could easily have been the farmer who owned the field warning them off. Frankly if the IDF were shooting at the crowd with a rifle, the person with the loudspeaker or any of the people holding their hands in the air would have been shot. Literally. Nobody was injured. So to be looks like a staged publicity stunt of some sort.


Nope, that would be the westerners who come in looking to get palestinians killed for a PR buzz...



Seems more like rattling the tigers cage looking for a reaction. There's nothing to suggest that these "human rights workers" weren't in a prescribed area, or that the IDF were firing warning shots to get them out of a minefield. That little video looks staged, and if indeed it was, this group is likely to pick a spot where they know they shouldn't be, and will get a reaction...

Considering the IDF's ability to kill civilians, I'm amazed none of the people in the video were shot or wounded... curious don't ya think?



I don't see you allocating morality points to Hamas, or the other Palestinian groups... strange.

I would hardly think that Human Rights Watch is an organisation that would need to falsify evidence. They are respected internationally for their work in documenting and reporting human rights abuses throughout the world.

It is obvious that these people were working with farmers who were harvesting parsley on their own lands and they were being intimidated by warning shots from the IDF. Why would their own land be a proscribed area ?

The web is full of simialr videos, are they all "staged"

I have voiced my opinion of Hammas before on this thread, you must have missed it.
- 10 to them too which makes the IDF no better than "terrorists"

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

The Palestinians use the rockets to get the Israeli's to respond with conventional attacks, which in turn cause civilian casualties, thereby promoting their cause of being the victims. If the palestinian rockets actually did any significant damage they would lose support and thats not in their interests. .

I would have thought that 40 years of occupation was all the proof of 'victimhood' would require.

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, that would be the westerners who come in looking to get palestinians killed for a PR buzz... .

And of course if they stay in the West and protest they're 'spinless cowards' with big mouths who wouldnt get off their arses to save their lives. Who need to get jobs/haircuts etc. And lay off the dope.

Deleted User wrote: »

Considering the IDF's ability to kill civilians, I'm amazed none of the people in the video were shot or wounded... curious don't ya think?.

So because the IDF hasn't killed anyone in this instance, the IDF have never historically killed anyone?

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see you allocating morality points to Hamas, or the other Palestinian groups... strange.

I don't see anyone around here tying to imply they're saints. I'd suspect the two facts are related.

paulaa

paulaa wrote: »

I would hardly think that Human Rights Watch is an organisation that would need to falsify evidence. They are respected internationally for their work in documenting and reporting human rights abuses throughout the world.

And yet they're often accused of being highly selective of the material they wish to show, or the causes they wish to support.. As for falsifying evidence, I don't know if they have. That video isn't evidence of anything...

It is obvious that these people were working with farmers who were harvesting parsley on their own lands and they were being intimidated by warning shots from the IDF. Why would their own land be a proscribed area ?

Firstly, I don't see anything obvious to suggest that these people were farmers harvesting their own lands. Nothing in the video offers any evidence of that.

Secondly, as I said before, there is nothing in the video to suggest that it was indeed the IDF firing the shots. We didn't see any of the people firing the shots.

And lastly there are many reasons why their lands might be a proscribed area... surely you can think of a few?

The web is full of simialr videos, are they all "staged"

Nope. I'm sure some of the video's are fact. I'm saying that this one doesn't show anything useful, and appears to be staged.

I have voiced my opinion of Hammas before on this thread, you must have missed it.
- 10 to them too which makes the IDF no better than "terrorists"

aye, i must have indeed have missed it. I guess the multiple posts against the IDF captured my eye.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

I would have thought that 40 years of occupation was all the proof of 'victimhood' would require.

40? Don't you mean 60 years plus? Oh, being occupied by Arab nations & the british empire doesn't count.

But when i mentioned about being victims I was referring to the actual attacks which kill civilians.

And of course if they stay in the West and protest they're 'spinless cowards' with big mouths who wouldnt get off their arses to save their lives. Who need to get jobs/haircuts etc. And lay off the dope.

Err, your words not mine. I dont believe I've ever said anything like that before.

So because the IDF hasn't killed anyone in this instance, the IDF have never historically killed anyone?

Where did i say that or even suggest it? I said that there is no sign of the IDF in this video.. care to point them out for me? Where are they? :rolleyes:

Heres a question for you... If a trained soldier with a rifle is told to kill some protesters in a field not far away, where they are standing up, waving their arms, and generally making an impressive target of themselves, wouldn't you think that said soldier would be capable of killing or wounding at least one of the group, after 3 or 4 shots?

Flamed Diving

1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Israel GDP per cap: $27,146

Palestine GDP per cap: $2,050

Ratio = 13.24


Yeah, there is a definite discrepancy there. Israel are goin waaay over the top.

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

40? Don't you mean 60 years plus? Oh, being occupied by Arab nations doesn't count. ?

To the extent you didn't have Palestinian land taken by heavily armed Egyptian "settlers", no, it doesn't.....

Deleted User wrote: »

But when i mentioned about being victims I was referring to the actual attacks which kill civilians.?

Being beaten, tortured and having your land stolen would render you a victim according to my lights, bleeding heart liberal that I am.

Deleted User wrote: »

Err, your words not mine. I dont believe I've ever said anything like that before. .?

Others have. One gets the feeling that regardless of what people do, some excuse will arise to dismiss their efforts.

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did i say that or even suggest it? I said that there is no sign of the IDF in this video.. care to point them out for me? Where are they? :rolleyes:
.?

The implication from the quote below was fairly clear.....

Considering the IDF's ability to kill civilians, I'm amazed none of the people in the video were shot or wounded... curious don't ya think?.

Deleted User wrote: »

Heres a question for you... If a trained soldier with a rifle is told to kill some protesters in a field not far away, where they are standing up, waving their arms, and generally making an impressive target of themselves, wouldn't you think that said soldier would be capable of killing or wounding at least one of the group, after 3 or 4 shots?

Whats that to do with anything?

paulaa

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet they're often accused of being highly selective of the material they wish to show, or the causes they wish to support.. As for falsifying evidence, I don't know if they have. That video isn't evidence of anything...

Firstly, I don't see anything obvious to suggest that these people were farmers harvesting their own lands. Nothing in the video offers any evidence of that.

Secondly, as I said before, there is nothing in the video to suggest that it was indeed the IDF firing the shots. We didn't see any of the people firing the shots.

And lastly there are many reasons why their lands might be a proscribed area... surely you can think of a few?



Nope. I'm sure some of the video's are fact. I'm saying that this one doesn't show anything useful, and appears to be staged.



aye, i must have indeed have missed it. I guess the multiple posts against the IDF captured my eye.

Deny it all you like but I would take the word of an Internationally recognised body who have been working for over 30 years to document and alleviate human rights abuses by corrupt regimes, over any Israeli apologist. Most perpetrators don't like them because they show them up for what they are and publicise their abuses to the world. Mugabe didn't like them either .

Since the IDF are the henchmen of the Israeli regime,and are the ones carrying out the orders to kill it's only fair that they are open to scrutiny.

paulaa

I have seen mention of the Hammas charter here several times, as an excuse for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Here are some excerpts from the Likud party "charter".

I don't see much difference in either of them only the Likud one is not in flowery rhetoric.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm