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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians
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Paddy Samurai wrote: »
. According to the Torah , the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God,
My personal Jesus says I won your house in Heavens lotto.
I'll be round later.0 -
they weren't kicked out they run. please read your history! those thousands that did stay (amazingly seeing as you claim that Israel kick them out) are now all Israeli citizens with full rights. (they have there own ministers and parties in the government )
and Israel wont take them as they are not ready to join Israel and see it as an enemy.
They were kicked out. The only way to create a Jewish state is to create a Jewish majority. The Palestinians were a pre-existing majority and they were kickout plain and simple. Without that, there would be no Israel.
As for the Palestinians who weren't kicked out, well there use to be a hell of a lot more of them and they hardly have equal rights. Plenty of examples shown in this thread about this already.
Also, Israel won't allow the Palestinians they kicked out back in, as they would then constitute a majority and Israel would cease to be a Jewish state. Basically, it is to maintain there majority, which was achieved via ethnic cleansing in the first place.I never said 2 wrongs make a right. I was just explaining to paulaa why Israelis cant leave Israel.
Fair enough, misunderstood you then.Again Israel does not see it as stealing as it feels that the land belongs to it. and you really really must be joking when you say what concessions have Israel done! (there was all most a civil war in Israel because the extreme concession which where done in Israel)
Your talking nonsense. Israel land theft shows they have no interest in peace. You seem to think the land theft is ok, as Israel says so. If you choose to ignore simple facts, please go right ahead. Plenty of links provided, all through the thread.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ItnbkgHZk&feature=related
where you can see Israelis trying to evacuate Israeli people from there home just for ""peace"" and after that they withdraw completely from GAZA and even gave them Millions in support to set up a Democratical system and even weapons for the police which are today used to fire at Israel.
also Israel Gives Free electricity and water to Gaza and let thousands come in to work in Israel every day... and I can go on and on..!
So please spear me with your miss information or lack of knowledge!
Mis-information? Laughable. You give one example of a nice showy eviction, but ignore the fact that West Bank colonies are expanding pretty damn quickly. When Israel removes every single colony, or at least stop expanding, then they can claim to be making concession.
There is even a link posted earlier (a couple of pages back) showing expansion happening right now. Expansion is a reality, one showy eviction mean nothing, when overall the colonies are expanding hugely.
Also, after turning Gaza into a giant prison, Israel took more land in the West Bank. So these concessions you speak of are a joke.
Also, you seem to forget the apartheid and the recent mass murder that happened in Gaza.well Firstly they can stand up to the Hamans which is an extremist organization which actually kill more Palestine's then Israel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I
(not made by Jews and not for Jews.)
Israel killed a hell of a lot of Palestinians in Gaza recently. Are we suppose to forget that, because Hamas are scum?
I agree that Hamas needs to stop violence against Israeli civilians, but as we have seen, the Israeli's will still steal land and continued there apartheid regardless of what the Palestinians do.Wont even comment on that as you have obviously never met any Israelis.
What are you even talking about? How does me having met or not met Israeli's change the fact Israel is stealing land? Pure nonsense.I never said aggression is one sided. and again Israel does not see it as stealing.
So what? They are stealing. I could care less what Israel thinks. Its a conflict about land, taking more will perpetuate the conflict. Israels land theft makes things worse plain and simple. Whether they consider it theft or not doesn't matter a tiny bit.I am sure you know many more Americans and Russians then Israeli or Palestinians. and I'm sure you can find America and Russia easier on the map.
I don't need to know anyone from those countries to look at the facts of the situations there. Quite frankly its completely irrelevant whether I know people from those nation or have been there.for instance I know nothing about the Russian chechnin problem or the recent Russian war as I have never been there and know all most nothing about it except what I see in the news. and sadly news these days are Rubbish.
an example I thought that Russia attacked Georgia for no reason but to take land and I though Russia was horrible to do that. only much later I heard that there has been a long conflict and it is acutely the Georgians that attacked first (not from big main stream news). which makes you understand that when you know nothing about the area what they report is what is true (just like history).
Well, I have never been to Russia a day in my life and I knew that Georgia kicked off the conflict. I am more than capable of finding multiple sources for my news.0 -
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and about Egypt I have no idea as it would solve the current crisis, that was why I was asking you.
you need to understand that the Jews as you called them cant go back to where ever they came from because most those places are full of people with the same frame of mind as you (anti-jewish, ***will explain in a minute what I mean), and if they go back the simple fact will be that they will be killed or picked on or just have problems integrating. so sadly that's not an option.
I Agree completely. now explain to me why is Israel the only one willing to make concessions for peace..? I can give you a long list of of concessions Israel has done.
would the Palestinians do the same? Give me ONE example of a concessions that the Palestinians did, or are willing to do for peace..?!
none..! that is because they are not interested in peace, they just want ""their country back". there for they are ""content"" with war!
so you have two side A and B... one side has no where to go and is happy with war and feels its been robed and is not strong enough to do anything about it.
the other side wants peace as they have what they wanted and will not sit quietly while the other side just stings (kills) at it.
nither side have where to go so really you are just left with a choice just like in football to like either A or B as they both don't have a choice.
***and you (see reference before) just chose option A as it suits you in some way better then B.
I am really sort of done with the thread, as I am pretty sure I wont change your mind, and that you probably never been to Israel nor the Gaza strip.
(but hopfully have given some insite)
You are fooling yourself if you think that all Palestinians want is war. They want to live like anyone else.They want to be treated fairly, not like dogs. They want the same human rights that are "guaranteed" in the International Declaration of Human Rights. They want to be able to make a living and feed their families without fear of intimidation or harassment or of being evicted from their homes
As to your inference that I an anti-semitic, as I've said before here, a large part of my family is of the Jewish faith (so you're not the only Irish/ Israeli in the country). What I am is anti the fact that Zionists were given a homeland of their own on a plate and they have abused that generosity for the last 60 years. They don't respect any of the agreements or rules that most countries try to live by. Their Human Rights record is appalling and they are now trying to draw the US and the rest of the world into a war with Iran that, if it ever happens will lead to WW3.
Also I have been to Israel, the Gaza Strip, Jerusalem, etc and most of the Middle Eastern countries several times both on business and vacation but I wonder if you have ? Take your next holiday in the Gaza strip and come back and tell us how you liked it.0 -
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Paddy Samurai wrote: »
I personally don’t give a damn one way or the other who’s land it is , or who gets it. But who’s land it is depends on how far you go back really….
The land of israel , known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the jewish people since biblical times. According to the Torah , the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland; scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BC . According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BC, the first of a series of Israelite Kingdoms and states established rule over the region ; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years. The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century muslim conquests , the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian ,Babylon, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian , and Byzantine rule. Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the bar kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, theByzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel Judea Galilee , the Mishnah and part of the Talmud , among Judaism’s most important religious texts, were composed in Israel during this period. The Land of Israel was captured from the Byzantine Empire around 636 CE during the initial Muslim conquests. Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads,Abbasids, and crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260. In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire ,which ruled the region until the 20th century remained.
And if GOD says it belongs to the Jews who am I to argue with him. He should know , he made the bloody (no pun intended)thing.
ps:no i'am not jewish
pps:anyone can find this out on the net,begorrah is'nt wikipedia just great
Well Paddy all that depends on if you believe in the authors of a book written over 2000 years ago and take every sentence in it verbatim. I never saw anywhere in that, that God was an estate agent.
As the saying goes "religion is the opiate of the people" and has been used as an excuse for everything from mass murder to stealing land for centuries.0 -
Well Paddy all that depends on if you believe in the authors of a book written over 2000 years ago and take every sentence in it verbatim. I never saw anywhere in that, that God was an estate agent.
As the saying goes "religion is the opiate of the people" and has been used as an excuse for everything from mass murder to stealing land for centuries.
Luckily in the 21ST century we have huge selection of opiates even without religion,we can commit genocide(rwanda) without blaming religion and we can steel land from anyone we want if we are powerful enough.Yes we've come a long way.........................................hold on ...we could do that in every century..........nothing unusual about that then.As for excuses ,people are just people,serial killers make excuses for killing people,politicians make excuses for fcuking up the country,countries make up excuses for killing each other.As it was in the past so shall it be in the future till the end of time. As for the saying "religion is the opiate of the people" that was just made up by someone who did'nt like religion,probably by someone who got buggered by the local mufti, parish priest or rabbi.
ps:I do'nt take every sentence in it verbatim only the ones i like,and that suit me.Just like everyone else.0 -
Paddy Samurai wrote: »
I personally don’t give a damn one way or the other who’s land it is , or who gets it. But who’s land it is depends on how far you go back really….
The land of israel , known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the jewish people since biblical times. According to the Torah , the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland; scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BC . According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BC, the first of a series of Israelite Kingdoms and states established rule over the region ; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years. The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century muslim conquests , the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian ,Babylon, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian , and Byzantine rule. Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the bar kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, theByzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel Judea Galilee , the Mishnah and part of the Talmud , among Judaism’s most important religious texts, were composed in Israel during this period. The Land of Israel was captured from the Byzantine Empire around 636 CE during the initial Muslim conquests. Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads,Abbasids, and crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260. In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire ,which ruled the region until the 20th century remained.
And if GOD says it belongs to the Jews who am I to argue with him. He should know , he made the bloody (no pun intended)thing.
ps:no i'am not jewish
pps:anyone can find this out on the net,begorrah is'nt wikipedia just great
By this reckoning, we all own land in Africa, as that's where man originated from.
Your point holds no water when you start bringing religion into it. Especially when it's linked to a fictional book written over 2000 years ago.0 -
I wouldn't even know where to start.They were kicked out. The only way to create a Jewish state is to create a Jewish majority. The Palestinians were a pre-existing majority and they were kickout plain and simple. Without that, there would be no Israel.
As for the Palestinians who weren't kicked out, well there use to be a hell of a lot more of them and they hardly have equal rights. Plenty of examples shown in this thread about this already.
/QUOTE]
every word made up by you and people that are against Israel and rather brush off the facts.Also, Israel won't allow the Palestinians they kicked out back in, as they would then constitute a majority and Israel would cease to be a Jewish state.
completely TrueBasically, it is to maintain there majority, which was achieved via ethnic cleansing in the first place.
cant believe you said ethnic cleansing and Israel. it show blind hate and ignorance so I will not respond to your comments any more as you might as well start saying bad words and get it over with.You are fooling yourself if you think that all Palestinians want is war. They want to live like anyone else.They want to be treated fairly, not like dogs. They want the same human rights that are "guaranteed" in the International Declaration of Human Rights. They want to be able to make a living and feed their families without fear of intimidation or harassment or of being evicted from their homes
So why don't they do something about it then?! and don't tell me they cant.As to your inference that I an anti-semitic, as I've said before here, a large part of my family is of the Jewish faith (so you're not the only Irish/ Israeli in the country). What I am is anti the fact that Zionists were given a homeland of their own on a plate and they have abused that generosity for the last 60 years. They don't respect any of the agreements or rules that most countries try to live by. Their Human Rights record is appalling and they are now trying to draw the US and the rest of the world into a war with Iran that, if it ever happens will lead to WW3.
I love people that tell you you are doing bad but wont give advice. OK so if you where Israel and surrounded by country's that was you pretty much dead or gone to hell what would you do just let them come in and kill you?
and Israelis and Jews are two completely different things, actually in most country's the Israelis and Jews really don't get along.Also I have been to Israel, the Gaza Strip, Jerusalem, etc and most of the Middle Eastern countries several times both on business and vacation but I wonder if you have ? Take your next holiday in the Gaza strip and come back and tell us how you liked it.
I have been to the Gaza strip and all the plasticines control areas and its just like any other 3rd world country. acutely usually when they are not getting attacked some of them do quoit well.
Plus they are the ones who put the selves in this position if you would bother to learn the truth a little bit you would know that only 30-40 years a go people from my family use to go to Gaza to drink coffee and tea every week end, but then they started the Intifada (riots) against Israel which caused the bother to close and then they started with the suicide bombings which made sure Israel in return would seal them of where they brought themselves.
and if you where in the Gaza strip and Israel then you must know that Israel and """"Palestine""" are intertwined with houses villages and some cities so to say who is stealing from who is rubbish as you are obviously not aware that Palestinians are blinding 20 as many houses towards and in to Israel then Israel is building towards them so spare me with the occupation stories.0 -
every word made up by you and people that are against Israel and rather brush off the facts.
.
Its admitted by quite a few pro-Israeli people too. There were mass expulsions. Denying it acheives nothing.cant believe you said ethnic cleansing and Israel. it show blind hate and ignorance so I will not respond to your comments any more as you might as well start saying bad words and get it over with..
Well, they expel Palestinians within the OT and seize the land. You can call that what you will.So why don't they do something about it then?! and don't tell me they cant...
The only non-violent route would have been sanctions by the UN on Israel. Thats blocked by the US. Thus, they have no choice except armed resistance, ineffective though it might be.
Israel can't portray itself as the victim, when its slowly but successfully taking large parts of the West Bank, and Arab East Jerusalem. Its an aggressive act. Nor can it do so when its brutalising the population of the OT towards that end.0 -
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I wouldn't even know where to start.
every word made up by you and people that are against Israel and rather brush off the facts.
According to you of course. What I described is a historical fact.
It also make perfect sense. Again, to put it simply, the only way to create a Jewish state with a pre-existing non-Jewish majority is ethnic cleansing. This is what happened, otherwise there would be no Israel. You can choose to deny this all you like, but it doesn't change what happened for a single second.completely True
Which is of course racism, as Zionists drove them out in the first place.cant believe you said ethnic cleansing and Israel. it show blind hate and ignorance so I will not respond to your comments any more as you might as well start saying bad words and get it over with.
The term is accurate. The Palestinians who were expeled by Zionists, were ethnically cleansed to make way for a Jewish state. There is no way a Jewish state could possibly exists without a Jewish majority, which did not exist at the time, so they ethnically cleansed a whole bunch of Palestinians.
Also, you can accuse of "blind hate" and ignore facts that inconvenient to you all you like, but I don't hate Zionists. I just disagree with them and call there actions as I see them.So why don't they do something about it then?! and don't tell me they cant.
Of course they can't. There is a little matter of the occupatio and aparthed that make it next to impossible for them to do so.I love people that tell you you are doing bad but wont give advice. OK so if you where Israel and surrounded by country's that was you pretty much dead or gone to hell what would you do just let them come in and kill you?
and Israelis and Jews are two completely different things, actually in most country's the Israelis and Jews really don't get along.
Israel has made peace with both Jordan and Egypt, so I take it neither of the government want Israel dead. So to say there surrounded by people who want them dead is inaccurate.
So, the solution is a hard one, it is to make peace. However, as can be seen with Egypt and Jordan, it is possible and also the Arab peace inititive shows that it is possible.I have been to the Gaza strip and all the plasticines control areas and its just like any other 3rd world country. acutely usually when they are not getting attacked some of them do quoit well.
So you lived in Gaza and were under occupation? I would say visiting there and living under occupation, where your movements are limited are 2 different things.Plus they are the ones who put the selves in this position if you would bother to learn the truth a little bit you would know that only 30-40 years a go people from my family use to go to Gaza to drink coffee and tea every week end, but then they started the Intifada (riots) against Israel which caused the bother to close and then they started with the suicide bombings which made sure Israel in return would seal them of where they brought themselves.
You forget to mention the occupation. You forget to mention the denial of equal rights and apartheid.and if you where in the Gaza strip and Israel then you must know that Israel and """"Palestine""" are intertwined with houses villages and some cities so to say who is stealing from who is rubbish as you are obviously not aware that Palestinians are blinding 20 as many houses towards and in to Israel then Israel is building towards them so spare me with the occupation stories.
So your denying the existence of the occupation. Thats pretty damn funny and you accuse the rest of us of ignoring facts.
You are actually saying Palestinians are taking Israeli land? Thats laughable. Do these Palestinians have Israeli citizenship by any chance? How exactly do Palestinians from the occupied West Bank, occupied Gaza, or occupied East Jerusalem manage to get into Israel proper and build houses? Seems next to impossible that they could pull this off, as I am sure the IDF would be there pretty damn fast.0 -
Paddy Samurai wrote: »Luckily in the 21ST century we have huge selection of opiates even without religion,we can commit genocide(rwanda) without blaming religion and we can steel land from anyone we want if we are powerful enough.Yes we've come a long way.........................................hold on ...we could do that in every century..........nothing unusual about that then.As for excuses ,people are just people,serial killers make excuses for killing people,politicians make excuses for fcuking up the country,countries make up excuses for killing each other.As it was in the past so shall it be in the future till the end of time. As for the saying "religion is the opiate of the people" that was just made up by someone who did'nt like religion,probably by someone who got buggered by the local mufti, parish priest or rabbi.
ps:I do'nt take every sentence in it verbatim only the ones i like,and that suit me.Just like everyone else.
I agree with you, but wouldn't you think we (supposidly advanced societies) would have moved on instead of becoming more uncivilised at this stage in our evolution.
BTW it was Karl Marx who is credited with that saying0 -
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I wouldn't even know where to start.They were kicked out. The only way to create a Jewish state is to create a Jewish majority. The Palestinians were a pre-existing majority and they were kickout plain and simple. Without that, there would be no Israel.
As for the Palestinians who weren't kicked out, well there use to be a hell of a lot more of them and they hardly have equal rights. Plenty of examples shown in this thread about this already.
/QUOTE]
every word made up by you and people that are against Israel and rather brush off the facts.
completely True
cant believe you said ethnic cleansing and Israel. it show blind hate and ignorance so I will not respond to your comments any more as you might as well start saying bad words and get it over with.
So why don't they do something about it then?! and don't tell me they cant.
I love people that tell you you are doing bad but wont give advice. OK so if you where Israel and surrounded by country's that was you pretty much dead or gone to hell what would you do just let them come in and kill you?
and Israelis and Jews are two completely different things, actually in most country's the Israelis and Jews really don't get along.
I have been to the Gaza strip and all the plasticines control areas and its just like any other 3rd world country. acutely usually when they are not getting attacked some of them do quoit well.
Plus they are the ones who put the selves in this position if you would bother to learn the truth a little bit you would know that only 30-40 years a go people from my family use to go to Gaza to drink coffee and tea every week end, but then they started the Intifada (riots) against Israel which caused the bother to close and then they started with the suicide bombings which made sure Israel in return would seal them of where they brought themselves.
and if you where in the Gaza strip and Israel then you must know that Israel and """"Palestine""" are intertwined with houses villages and some cities so to say who is stealing from who is rubbish as you are obviously not aware that Palestinians are blinding 20 as many houses towards and in to Israel then Israel is building towards them so spare me with the occupation stories.
What a deluded and ill-informed post. Try doing some research on the ACTUAL history of the area and the REAL present day situation from both sides.Your feeling towards the Palestinian people are becoming more obvious as you seen to think it's ok to childishly call them plasticines. Sad !!!
Did you ever ask yourself why the Palestinians are not happy with the situation ?
You want advice on what should be done, ok here it is.
Israel goes back to the 1967 borders as agreed. Settlement building stops and the stolen land is handed back to the rightful owners. Forced illegal evictions stop now and reparation is paid to those who have lost everything.
Unnecessary Checkpoints in the West Bank are dismantled and freedom of movement and equal human rights are afforded to all who live there and intimidation and harrassment stops.
I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done but they are the important points and the cause of these Intifadas and violence towards Israelis.
My other piece of advice would be to read the following for a start and also ask yourself why several countries are calling for the leaders of Israel to be tried in the International Criminal court with War Crimes.
http://www.ichr.ps/pdfs/eMRV-1-09.pdf
http://wwww.reliefweb.int/rw/dbc.nsf/doc108?OpenForm&emid=ACOS-635PFR0 -
The Cost of Cast Lead
February 15, 2009: Israel has put a price on their recent Operation Cast Lead. This was the 22 day campaign in Gaza, and the Israelis are spending $590 million to replace damaged or destroyed equipment and supplies used, and restore troops to their pre campaign readiness. The Israelis expended over a thousand smart bombs and missiles, and used vast quantities of fuel and spare parts to operate the aircraft and vehicles. Reserve troops had to be paid and casualties (several hundred, although only 13 dead) taken care of. The $590 million is not the total cost of Cast Lead, but it is the bulk of it.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlog/articles/20090215.aspx
Arms that bolster the IDF to Israel to be stopped
16 February 2009 - Issue : 821
The Belgian politicians recently reached a consensus on banning exports that would feed the Israeli arsenal and thereby `strengthen it militarily,? local media reports confirmed last week citing a Belgian minister. Reports quoted Minister Patricia Ceysens from the Flemish regional government as saying: `There`s a consensus (among ministers) not to approve exports that would strengthen Israel`s military capacity.? Ceysens said this after a discussion on policy regarding weapons exports to Israel following the operation in Gaza. A final resolution had not been passed yet, but Belgian Foreign Minister Karel De Gucht already said that `given the current circumstances, weapons cannot be shipped from Belgium to Israel.? Meanwhile, a Brussels-based research group accused Israel of enlisting child soldiers.
According to a recently-released report by the European Institute for Research and Information on Peace and Security on Belgian arms exports to the Jewish state, Israel is the fourth largest importer of Belgian arms in the Middle East. In 2007, Belgium sold Israel weapons (mostly light firearms) to the tune of USD 5,409,223.The report, which accused Israel of human rights violations, also said that Belgium?s major weapons clients in the Middle East are Saudi Arabia (69 percent), Jordan (17 percent) and the United Arab Emirates (4.2 percent). The 15 page report does not deal with human rights violation in those countries. Quoting a 2003 amendment to Belgian law which forbids the sale of weapons to armies with child soldiers, the report said that Israel `accepts and arms underage volunteers.? Further on, the report mentioned `use of underage Palestinians as informants and sometimes human shields.?
The Israeli Defense Forces` Gadna program runs a one-week military training session on a base as part of the curriculum at most Israeli high schools. The army accepts volunteers from the age of 17 into non-combat posts. Meanwhile, 13 Belgian politicians, authors and scholars released a statement that called for a more evenhanded approach to Israel."
http://www.neurope.eu/articles/92812.php0 -
Israel goes back to the 1967 borders as agreed. Settlement building stops and the stolen land is handed back to the rightful owners. Forced illegal evictions stop now and reparation is paid to those who have lost everything. Unnecessary Checkpoints in the West Bank are dismantled and freedom of movement and equal human rights are afforded to all who live there and intimidation and harrassment stops.
Totally Agree. However its very easy to look only at what Israel has to do.. Surely even you have to admit that Palestinians would also have to do a lot.
In addition of the above I would also love to see the complete disarmament of all Palestinian militant groups, with the Palestinian state having a single armed force responsible for preventing attacks on Israel. A single police force responsible to the state, and monitored by the UN for violations against their own people.
I'd like to see a movement to integrate a mutually beneficial business/economic package for both Israel & Palestinians encouraging them to work together. A little more emphasis on them working together rather than just putting them on opposite ends of a border.I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done but they are the important points and the cause of these Intifadas and violence towards Israelis.
Complete rubbish. Violence against Israeli's has been there since the UN/British created the Palestinian state and also Israel. Palestinians are Arabs, and nearly all the Arab states sought to destroy Israel on both political and religious grounds.
Its naive to think that Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders, and following your points above would stop the attacks. And even if Israel did do all of the above, and the attacks continued, I daresay a lot of you would continue to find justifications for the attacks.0 -
Wes, I just wanted to respond about the ethnic cleansing remarks.It also make perfect sense. Again, to put it simply, the only way to create a Jewish state with a pre-existing non-Jewish majority is ethnic cleansing. This is what happened, otherwise there would be no Israel. You can choose to deny this all you like, but it doesn't change what happened for a single second.
Ahh, but there is no completely Jewish state. Ethnic cleansing didn't occur because many non-jews remained within the borders of the new jewish state, and were not either expelled or left of their own accord.
The simple fact of history is that Israel did expell & kill Arabs during the War. It also allowed many to remain in their borders, who continue to live to this day. By your own reasoning, the Arab nations at the same time, performed ethnic cleansing by forcing Jews to leave their countries to join with Israel, and yet I rarely see it mentioned.The term is accurate. The Palestinians who were expeled by Zionists, were ethnically cleansed to make way for a Jewish state. There is no way a Jewish state could possibly exists without a Jewish majority, which did not exist at the time, so they ethnically cleansed a whole bunch of Palestinians.
A Jewish state would exist because under UN treaty the state of Israel was created, which by its very nature is Jewish. It wouldn't have mattered if the majority population was Jewish or not, since under the aspices of the UN Israel was created for the jews, and Palestine was created for the Palestinians. As was Jordan by the British.0 -
if it wasn't sad what you wrote it would be funny.
OK ill stop commenting as sadly I thought people here would have a bit more insight to the situation.
ill just summarize and hope that you do make some real research and not read articles written by opinionated people like the link you just posted.
a few facts that I know from living in Israel not from the news articles:
1.Israeli Arabs as they are called actually have much more rights then Israelis as Israel has made sure to make a correcting discrimination towards them. (sort of like what was done with the blacks in America)
2.Israel and Palestine ""steal"" land from etch other at the same rate.
3.Israel is not interested in war. (at least the Israelis aren't, I'm not sure about the government which is just about ruled by America)
4.the same goes for Palestine... the people (most of them) want peace but the ""ruling class"" are all for war as they keep there power and money...
so I wish there was peace but sadly it will not happen unless people (governments) will have some kind of benefits out of it.
so yes Israel has ****ty tactics, but from that to saying Israel doesn't want peace is ridicules! seeing as Israel will and did give up half its land just for peace if they believe the other side will keep it.
Sadly no one in Israel believes the Palestinians will keep the peace so they stick to separation and defense.
and about the
it was just a mistake but I see it made you very happy as it fitted the notion that Israelis hate Palestinians and want to kill them which is complete nonsense.plasticines
most Israelis move from caring up to dont care and just want to defend Israel! very few actually really hate them! (I have quoit a few Palestine's and Arab friends, because people are just people!)You want advice on what should be done, ok here it is.
Israel goes back to the 1967 borders as agreed. Settlement building stops and the stolen land is handed back to the rightful owners. Forced illegal evictions stop now and reparation is paid to those who have lost everything.
Unnecessary Checkpoints in the West Bank are dismantled and freedom of movement and equal human rights are afforded to all who live there and intimidation and harrassment stops.
I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done but they are the important points and the cause of these Intifadas and violence towards Israelis.
Yes and after we do all this and give back everything and give them ""every thing they want"" and go back to the borders you made up... them what do you think they will stop?! probably not!!! and then you suggestion will be to retreat to the sea..?!0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Totally Agree. However its very easy to look only at what Israel has to do.. Surely even you have to admit that Palestinians would also have to do a lot.
In addition of the above I would also love to see the complete disarmament of all Palestinian militant groups, with the Palestinian state having a single armed force responsible for preventing attacks on Israel. A single police force responsible to the state, and monitored by the UN for violations against their own people.
I'd like to see a movement to integrate a mutually beneficial business/economic package for both Israel & Palestinians encouraging them to work together. A little more emphasis on them working together rather than just putting them on opposite ends of a border.
Complete rubbish. Violence against Israeli's has been there since the UN/British created the Palestinian state and also Israel. Palestinians are Arabs, and nearly all the Arab states sought to destroy Israel on both political and religious grounds.
Its naive to think that Israel withdrawing to the 1967 borders, and following your points above would stop the attacks. And even if Israel did do all of the above, and the attacks continued, I daresay a lot of you would continue to find justifications for the attacks.
Whoa !!! Hold your horses. I don't see anyone justifying the attacks but you have to look at and understand the root causes of the problem.
I can understand why there was animosity towards Israel from the beginning. They were given a land that did not belong to them or those doing the giving, without any consultation with the native population. After the bombing of the King David Hotel by the Israeli terrorists, the British Mandate in Palestine hurriedly made arrangements to get out of the country and made a complete mess of it. They made no provision for the Arab population's wellbeing or rights and understandably these people were annoyed.
The fact that Israel kept moving the goal posts (and are still doing so) with regard to the original and subsequent agreements means that no one in the ME trusts them to stick to any bargain that's made.The latest fiasco in Gaza is only one of a long line of examples of the complete disregard of Israel for the natives.
I agree with you that co-operation would be good but I can't see it happening. Both sides are too entrenched in their hatred and memories are long. Add to that the agenda of Israel to get rid of the Palestinians (yes I do believe that) out of the country and there's no way in hell they are going to concede land or go back to 1967 borders.
I really can't see any hope that the situation is going to end in anything other than more bloodshed0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Wes, I just wanted to respond about the ethnic cleansing remarks.
Ahh, but there is no completely Jewish state. Ethnic cleansing didn't occur because many non-jews remained within the borders of the new jewish state, and were not either expelled or left of their own accord.
Yes, it did occur. Just, because it was not 100% successful doesn't mean it did not take place. Honestly, to say it didn't occur, becuase they weren't a 100% successful is a poor excuse. All Israel needed was a Jewish majority and that was achieved.Deleted User wrote: »The simple fact of history is that Israel did expell & kill Arabs during the War. It also allowed many to remain in their borders, who continue to live to this day. By your own reasoning, the Arab nations at the same time, performed ethnic cleansing by forcing Jews to leave their countries to join with Israel, and yet I rarely see it mentioned.
Why would it be mentioned? Did the Palestinians kick them out? As you said yourself it was other Arab nations. So hardly the fault of the Palestinians now is it?
Just to make it clear, I support a rigth to return for Jews to Arab nations they were kicked out of, but this does not excuse what Israel did and nor is it the fault of the Palestinians.
Also, Israel didn't bother to kick out the rest of the Palestinians, as they had achieved what they wanted a majority Jewish nation. Still the Palestinians lived under military rule for a couple of decades. There are even Palestinians in Israel who are internally displaced (within Israel) to this day.Deleted User wrote: »A Jewish state would exist because under UN treaty the state of Israel was created, which by its very nature is Jewish. It wouldn't have mattered if the majority population was Jewish or not, since under the aspices of the UN Israel was created for the jews, and Palestine was created for the Palestinians. As was Jordan by the British.
You do understand that a Palestinian majority would have voted it out of existence first chance they go and unified the 2 states. What the UN said would harldy matter, as democracy would ensure the Jewish state would cease to exist at the first election with a Palestinian majority. The Zionists knew this and took steps to make sure it did not happen. A Jewish state with a Palestinian majority was never feasible, without ethnic cleansing and that is exactly what happened.0 -
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if it wasn't sad what you wrote it would be funny.
OK ill stop commenting as sadly I thought people here would have a bit more insight to the situation.
ill just summarize and hope that you do make some real research and not read articles written by opinionated people like the link you just posted.
a few facts that I know from living in Israel not from the news articles:
1.Israeli Arabs as they are called actually have much more rights then Israelis as Israel has made sure to make a correcting discrimination towards them. (sort of like what was done with the blacks in America)
2.Israel and Palestine ""steal"" land from etch other at the same rate.
3.Israel is not interested in war. (at least the Israelis aren't, I'm not sure about the government which is just about ruled by America)
4.the same goes for Palestine... the people (most of them) want peace but the ""ruling class"" are all for war as they keep there power and money...
so I wish there was peace but sadly it will not happen unless people (governments) will have some kind of benefits out of it.
so yes Israel has ****ty tactics, but from that to saying Israel doesn't want peace is ridicules! seeing as Israel will and did give up half its land just for peace if they believe the other side will keep it.
Sadly no one in Israel believes the Palestinians will keep the peace so they stick to separation and defense.
and about the it was just a mistake but I see it made you very happy as it fitted the notion that Israelis hate Palestinians and want to kill them which is complete nonsense.
most Israelis move from caring up to dont care and just want to defend Israel! very few actually really hate them! (I have quoit a few Palestine's and Arab friends, because people are just people!)
Yes and after we do all this and give back everything and give them ""every thing they want"" and go back to the borders you made up... them what do you think they will stop?! probably not!!! and then you suggestion will be to retreat to the sea..?!
You mean you will stop contributing to the thread because people don't agree with you lol.
Most of your post is nonsense and tired old propaganda and doesn't merit a reply but where did you get the idea that I "made up" the 1967 borders lol0 -
if it wasn't sad what you wrote it would be funny.
OK ill stop commenting as sadly I thought people here would have a bit more insight to the situation.
ill just summarize and hope that you do make some real research and not read articles written by opinionated people like the link you just posted.
Plenty of news articles being posted here, which are not opinion. If you choose to deny facts, then go right ahead. You only make your own position harder to defend.a few facts that I know from living in Israel not from the news articles:
The news reports plenty of facts.1.Israeli Arabs as they are called actually have much more rights then Israelis as Israel has made sure to make a correcting discrimination towards them. (sort of like what was done with the blacks in America)
They don't have equal rights and to suggest they do is laughable. They are discriminated against:
Olmert: Israeli Arabs have long suffered discrimination
Thats from an Israeli news paper and are the words of your former Prime Minister. So what your saying is nonsense.2.Israel and Palestine ""steal"" land from etch other at the same rate.
I must have missed the Palestinian colonies in Israel. Oh wait there are none. What you say here is fiction.3.Israel is not interested in war. (at least the Israelis aren't, I'm not sure about the government which is just about ruled by America)
Of course the people don't want war, but you can't blame the US for Israel's governments actions.4.the same goes for Palestine... the people (most of them) want peace but the ""ruling class"" are all for war as they keep there power and money...
No disagreement there.so I wish there was peace but sadly it will not happen unless people (governments) will have some kind of benefits out of it.
so yes Israel has ****ty tactics, but from that to saying Israel doesn't want peace is ridicules! seeing as Israel will and did give up half its land just for
peace if they believe the other side will keep it.
The land isn't theres to begin with (Gaza, West Bank, & East Jerusalem). They would just be giving it back to its rightful owners.
Anyway, the continued colonization sadly shows Israel (the government) don't want peace. Hopefully, this will change some day, but is sadly unlikely right now.Sadly no one in Israel believes the Palestinians will keep the peace so they stick to separation and defense.
and about the it was just a mistake but I see it made you very happy as it fitted the notion that Israelis hate Palestinians and want to kill them which is complete nonsense.
Why then are Israel taking so much land and pushing the Palestinians in small serparated cantons in the West Bank and a giant prison like Gaza. The whole thing is apartheid and there can be no defence for it.
Also, Israel's continued colonization even during peace talks, shows the Palestinians Israel doesn't seem intereted in keeping a peace either btw.most Israelis move from caring up to dont care and just want to defend Israel! very few actually really hate them! (I have quoit a few Palestine's and Arab friends, because people are just people!)
I am sure many just want to defend Israel, but taking more land is just making the conflict worse. Taking more land it not defending Israel, but making sure there will be constant conflict. Its a conflict about land (and other resources) and taking more of it, will perpetuate the conflict. So Israel is not doing itself favours with it colonization project.Yes and after we do all this and give back everything and give them ""every thing they want"" and go back to the borders you made up... them what do you think they will stop?! probably not!!! and then you suggestion will be to retreat to the sea..?!
No one made any such suggestion. However, if Israel wants all the land, then give the Palestinians equal rights then.
There can be no excuse for the apartheid system, that is currently in existence. Israel can't have its cake and eat it, they can either make peace, which as we all know is possible, as evidenced by the peace deal with Jordan and Egypt (and the Arab league peace initiative), or constant conflict and apartheid.0 -
I'm thought I would enter a normal debate (which sadly I sort of did), all you are doing are doing the propaganda wars... they are really easy you find a reporter that is pro Palestine's or pro Israel and you post his articles..!
which is just stupid really, for lack of a better word.
I can post so many pro-Israel links here that you will have enough to read until next year and by the end of it you will think Israel is a saint and all Arabs are ruthless killers. But I'm don't play that game I prefer to talk about facts.
I lived there I was in the army I was in contact with them all day belive me I know better then some reporter trying to make his (opinionated) point.
but since you want to play the propoganda war here you go (going down to the mass level):
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/gaza2008primer.html
Look those poor people boo hoo we should feel bad for them bad arabs... (rubish news)
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/breaking_point.asp
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Coming_Soon_Hamas_Media_Massacre.asp
OMG look at that they lied they must all be villeins
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1231470487
I use this site becouase it tracks propganda for me
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Did_Israel_Shell_a_UN_School_The_Truth_Exposed.asp
So now that we have conflicting report that's amazing, but some one wrote it down under a news papers name it MUST be true.
believe me I think Israelis (which I cant really stand by the way) have a ****y way of dealing with problems and they use way to much force half the time need to change there hole army structure because they have 20 year old commanders that I would put in charge of a puppy, never the less a company of children with guns and wayy to much power in there hands!
BUT
it doesn't change the fact that Israel is willing for peace and Palestine isn't. and it doesn't matter why Palestine wont accept peace! as long as they don't accept it I have no pitty on them and they deserve what they get as they prefer it over peace.
and I have no pitty on Israelis ether because they cant control there army!
so let the war continue as every one seems to like it except for those that are killed and there relatives . I defiantly wont take part of it.0 -
Is this a serious response?.You accuse me of "bringing religion into it" into the region of israel?Into a region that is the source of the three main religions?.Into an region of the earth were every single thing both past and present is about religion.By this reckoning, we all own land in Africa, as that's where man originated from.
Your point holds no water when you start bringing religion into it. Especially when it's linked to a fictional book written over 2000 years ago.
As for the book being fiction i will admit i do'nt know one way or another?.
But theres only one way to find out for sure, is'nt there?.And we will all find out won't we?.
I'am afraid i will not be able to respond to future posts as i'am about to be banned.0 -
I'm thought I would enter a normal debate (which sadly I sort of did), all you are doing are doing the propaganda wars... they are really easy you find a reporter that is pro Palestine's or pro Israel and you post his articles..!
which is just stupid really, for lack of a better word.
I can post so many pro-Israel links here that you will have enough to read until next year and by the end of it you will think Israel is a saint and all Arabs are ruthless killers. But I'm don't play that game I prefer to talk about facts.
I lived there I was in the army I was in contact with them all day belive me I know better then some reporter trying to make his (opinionated) point.
but since you want to play the propoganda war here you go (going down to the mass level):
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/gaza2008primer.html
Look those poor people boo hoo we should feel bad for them bad arabs... (rubish news)
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/breaking_point.asp
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Coming_Soon_Hamas_Media_Massacre.asp
OMG look at that they lied they must all be villeins
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1231470487
I use this site becouase it tracks propganda for me
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Did_Israel_Shell_a_UN_School_The_Truth_Exposed.asp
So now that we have conflicting report that's amazing, but some one wrote it down under a news papers name it MUST be true.
believe me I think Israelis (which I cant really stand by the way) have a ****y way of dealing with problems and they use way to much force half the time need to change there hole army structure because they have 20 year old commanders that I would put in charge of a puppy, never the less a company of children with guns and wayy to much power in there hands!
BUT
it doesn't change the fact that Israel is willing for peace and Palestine isn't. and it doesn't matter why Palestine wont accept peace! as long as they don't accept it I have no pitty on them and they deserve what they get as they prefer it over peace.
and I have no pitty on Israelis ether because they cant control there army!
so let the war continue as every one seems to like it except for those that are killed and there relatives . I defiantly wont take part of it.
I'm glad you didn't leave like you said you would.
Just because some of us have different ideas to yours doesn't mean we can't debate, that is what forums are for after all.
I'm interested in what you mean when you say you can't stand Israelis. What kind of Israelis do you mean ?
It's very nice of you to come "down to the mass level" but I can't believe you quote Faux News as a creditable source of anything !!! I don't even believe the weather forecast from them.
You see, you have to read many sources before you can make an informed decision. I read articles from all sides of the conflict, and from many different countries. I keep up with the UN and other international organisations.
I have watched hundreds of documentaries over many years and I have traveled to the area, that is what I base my opinion on as well as having friends and family members living in Israel.
You say you have been in the army, if that's true then you will have seen first hand the daily harassments and and unfair treatment that the Palestinians have to endure and yet you say they have equal rights ???
Have you seen this documentary from CBS News, (a very pro-Israel station), made by Senior CBS Foreign Correspondent Bob Simon, who is Jewish living outside Tel-Aviv. It changed a lot of American's minds about what is happening in Israel.
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Whoa !!! Hold your horses. I don't see anyone justifying the attacks but you have to look at and understand the root causes of the problem.
No, I see a lot of minor comments about Palestinian actions, and then major focus on Israel. /shrugs
As for the root causes, I agree.I can understand why there was animosity towards Israel from the beginning. They were given a land that did not belong to them or those doing the giving, without any consultation with the native population.
Interesting since I don't see the Nomadic tribes (Bedouin and others) that occupied these lands prior to the creation of either state fighting Israel... Their lands were taken from them, and nothing has happened.
As for there being no consultation, the UN did make proposals to the majority leaders of the Palestinians at the time, and were rejected. They chose war instead of peaceful negotiation, and as a result of it, they lost everything. Occupied by Arabs and Israelis for roughly 20 years afterwards, and still fighting...After the bombing of the King David Hotel by the Israeli terrorists, the British Mandate in Palestine hurriedly made arrangements to get out of the country and made a complete mess of it. They made no provision for the Arab population's wellbeing or rights and understandably these people were annoyed.
Just as they made no wellbeing for the Israeli populations wellbeing. They upped and left as quick as they could.The fact that Israel kept moving the goal posts (and are still doing so) with regard to the original and subsequent agreements means that no one in the ME trusts them to stick to any bargain that's made.The latest fiasco in Gaza is only one of a long line of examples of the complete disregard of Israel for the natives.
I partially agree. The reason I say partially is because you rarely mention the Palestinian failures in all of this. There have been plenty of actions by Palestinians which have been used as justification for Israeli actions. Its not completely one-sided. Both sides have consistently avoided any chances to resolve this peacefully for a significant length of time.I agree with you that co-operation would be good but I can't see it happening. Both sides are too entrenched in their hatred and memories are long.
Personally, I think the Israeli's are more capable of moving on with their lives than the Palestinian Militants. If there was a way to guarantee no attacks across the border (the 1967 border that is), then I believe the Israeli people could maintain a peace. But, I dont believe that Palestinians can with their different militant groups and different objectives/mandates. They're too splintered..Add to that the agenda of Israel to get rid of the Palestinians (yes I do believe that) out of the country and there's no way in hell they are going to concede land or go back to 1967 borders.
Well, I don't agree. The ethnic cleansing isn't likely considering the population of the Palestinian people increasing over the last few decades over what it once was... Also considering how small a space present day palestine is, I believe that Israel could do a lot more killing if they really intended on getting rid of the Palestinians.I really can't see any hope that the situation is going to end in anything other than more bloodshed
I agree, but only as long as there are people choosing sides to support. Back down, and treat them equally. Punish both countries for their actions equally. Don't shine the light on Israeli brutality only to softly condemn Palestinian actions.
There is too much support out there for the fighting to continue. Too many people say Israel is justified in defending itself, and Palestinians are justified because Israel took their lands. Step in and force an equal and balanced peace. That is the only logical answer.0 -
Yes, it did occur. Just, because it was not 100% successful doesn't mean it did not take place. Honestly, to say it didn't occur, becuase they weren't a 100% successful is a poor excuse. All Israel needed was a Jewish majority and that was achieved.
No, I assumed from your post that they needed to be 100% successful to have a Jewish state... The Jewish majority occurred due to the immigration of Jews coming in from other countries. Either coming voluntarily, or being expelled.Why would it be mentioned? Did the Palestinians kick them out? As you said yourself it was other Arab nations. So hardly the fault of the Palestinians now is it?
So, its not relevant simply because the Palestinians didn't do it? Hmm... Thats a very fair stance to take. You complain about Palestinians being expelled from their homes, but it doesn't matter that it was happening to Jews at the same time?
Ahh, thats very... one sided of you...Just to make it clear, I support a rigth to return for Jews to Arab nations they were kicked out of, but this does not excuse what Israel did and nor is it the fault of the Palestinians.
Really? You support such a return? Strange that I've never seen you mention it before.
And I don't believe I've said that it excuses the Israeli actions. In fact, I pointed out that Israeli's killed and expelled Arabs from their lands... but not to the extent to denote ethnic cleansing.Also, Israel didn't bother to kick out the rest of the Palestinians, as they had achieved what they wanted a majority Jewish nation. Still the Palestinians lived under military rule for a couple of decades. There are even Palestinians in Israel who are internally displaced (within Israel) to this day.
You do understand that the UN created two states. A Palestinian state and an Israeli state. Both states were capable of creating any laws or systems they chose to do. The Israeli's would have been perfectly in the right to prevent any majority of Arab population in their borders from achieving any political majority in their country. Had the Palestinian state not gone to war, they themselves would have been able in enact similar laws, and guidelines for their political system.
The Palestinians lived under military rule for decades inside Israels borders, because everyone within the borders lived under military rule. They are a nation that has known very little peace.You do understand that a Palestinian majority would have voted it out of existence first chance they go and unified the 2 states.
Unify the two states? Huh? How was that likely since a Palestinian state and an Israeli state were created for the very purpose of keeping them separate. No Jew would have accepted such a thing, nor would any Arab. It is fact that the Arab nations went to war to prevent even the existence of the Palestinian & Israeli states.. otherwise why would Palestine have been occupied by other Arab nations for so many years?What the UN said would harldy matter, as democracy would ensure the Jewish state would cease to exist at the first election with a Palestinian majority.
Democracy? Rubbish. Again... It would have been a Jewish run nation, with Jewish laws, and the capacity to prevent anything like that occurring.The Zionists knew this and took steps to make sure it did not happen. A Jewish state with a Palestinian majority was never feasible, without ethnic cleansing and that is exactly what happened.
I totally agree. It wouldn't have been possible unless the Jews had been killed off, which oddly enough is what the Arab nations including Palestine tried to do by declaring war with the goal of Israel's destruction in mind.
As for ethnic cleansing, you have still to prove how this occurred.0 -
Paddy Samurai wrote: »But theres only one way to find out for sure, is'nt there?.
As theres no mobile coverage in the afterlife at the moment, I'd have to say that any such excercise would be mired in futility from the outset.Klaz wrote:Personally, I think the Israeli's are more capable of moving on with their lives than the Palestinian Militants.
...because they live within a recognised and secure state.0 -
I'm thought I would enter a normal debate (which sadly I sort of did), all you are doing are doing the propaganda wars... they are really easy you find a reporter that is pro Palestine's or pro Israel and you post his articles..!
which is just stupid really, for lack of a better word.
I can post so many pro-Israel links here that you will have enough to read until next year and by the end of it you will think Israel is a saint and all Arabs are ruthless killers. But I'm don't play that game I prefer to talk about facts.
So main stream Western News papers are propoganda now?I lived there I was in the army I was in contact with them all day belive me I know better then some reporter trying to make his (opinionated) point.
So, reporters who have been to Gaza and have had contact with them know less than you? Laughable.but since you want to play the propoganda war here you go (going down to the mass level):
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/gaza2008primer.html
Look those poor people boo hoo we should feel bad for them bad arabs... (rubish news)
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/breaking_point.asp
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Coming_Soon_Hamas_Media_Massacre.asp
OMG look at that they lied they must all be villeins
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1231470487
I use this site becouase it tracks propganda for me
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Did_Israel_Shell_a_UN_School_The_Truth_Exposed.asp
So you don't like propoganda, but decide to use it when it suits you.
Honestly to compare honest reporting a web site, which exist to be soley pro-Israeli to Western news papers is pretty damn funny. One has a clear bias and the other exist to report the news. Now News papers make mistakes, no doubt about that, but to compare them to a web site, who's sole purpose is to be pro-Israel is a bit ridiculous.So now that we have conflicting report that's amazing, but some one wrote it down under a news papers name it MUST be true.
Well, you made a number of claims, like Palestinians taking Israeli land and have yet to back it up. Still waiting on that btw.believe me I think Israelis (which I cant really stand by the way) have a ****y way of dealing with problems and they use way to much force half the time need to change there hole army structure because they have 20 year old commanders that I would put in charge of a puppy, never the less a company of children with guns and wayy to much power in there hands!
BUT
it doesn't change the fact that Israel is willing for peace and Palestine isn't. and it doesn't matter why Palestine wont accept peace! as long as they don't accept it I have no pitty on them and they deserve what they get as they prefer it over peace.
Again, you ignore the land theft, as it inconvenient to your argument. If Israel wanted peace it would not take land. It is a land conflict, taking more land will make things worse. Insisting Israel want peace, when they are taking land makes no sense. You simply don't want to address this at all, and will instead make bizare claims about Palestinains taking land from Israel, which even if they were, would still not change the fact that Israel is taking land, which shows they don't want peace.and I have no pitty on Israelis ether because they cant control there army!
so let the war continue as every one seems to like it except for those that are killed and there relatives . I defiantly wont take part of it.
No one likes war, with the exception of a few crazed nutters.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »No, I assumed from your post that they needed to be 100% successful to have a Jewish state... The Jewish majority occurred due to the immigration of Jews coming in from other countries. Either coming voluntarily, or being expelled.
No, the majority was created via ethnic cleansing. The immigration happened after that.Deleted User wrote: »So, its not relevant simply because the Palestinians didn't do it? Hmm... Thats a very fair stance to take. You complain about Palestinians being expelled from their homes, but it doesn't matter that it was happening to Jews at the same time?
Ahh, thats very... one sided of you...
What does it have to do with the Palestinians exactly? Is it there fault? Did they drives out Jews from there homes? No, they didn't. So I don't see what it has to do with the Palestinians.
I always find it funny that people call me one sided, when the bring up stuff that is not the fault of the Palestinians. Again, the fact that other Arab nations kicked out Jews, has nothing to do with what Zionists did to the Palestinians. The whole guilt by association thing is pretty silly.Deleted User wrote: »Really? You support such a return? Strange that I've never seen you mention it before.
So what if I didn't mention in this thread before. I mentioned it just now. I fail to see how me not saying it before, has any bearing on whether I mean it or not. I didn't condemn the atrocities in the Congo in this thread before, does that mean by your logic, I support them, or that by only condemning it now, that I am not being entirely truthful?
Also, I have said it before in other threads. Whether you read that or not, is simply not my problem.Deleted User wrote: »And I don't believe I've said that it excuses the Israeli actions. In fact, I pointed out that Israeli's killed and expelled Arabs from their lands... but not to the extent to denote ethnic cleansing.
I simply don't understand what ethnic cleansing carried out by other nations, has to do with what Israel did, or what it had to do with with the Palestinians. Seems like 2 different issues to me.
Again, what Israel done was ethnic cleansing, they were not a 100% successful, but then the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia wasn't a 100% successful, but people rightly call it that.Deleted User wrote: »You do understand that the UN created two states. A Palestinian state and an Israeli state. Both states were capable of creating any laws or systems they chose to do. The Israeli's would have been perfectly in the right to prevent any majority of Arab population in their borders from achieving any political majority in their country. Had the Palestinian state not gone to war, they themselves would have been able in enact similar laws, and guidelines for their political system.
So the UN has the right to give away other people countries without consulting the majority population? Seesm like a recipe for trouble.
What you don't understand is that trying to create a "Jewish" state is impossible without a Jewish majority. It would not be a Jewish state, if the majority aren't Jewish. It would be an apartheid state.
Also, the Israeli's would not be with in there rights to prevent the majority changing the laws. You see when a group does that, we call it apartheid.Deleted User wrote: »The Palestinians lived under military rule for decades inside Israels borders, because everyone within the borders lived under military rule. They are a nation that has known very little peace.
Well, invading a country in the Middle East tends to lead to that. Just ask the cruasaders.Deleted User wrote: »Unify the two states? Huh? How was that likely since a Palestinian state and an Israeli state were created for the very purpose of keeping them separate. No Jew would have accepted such a thing, nor would any Arab. It is fact that the Arab nations went to war to prevent even the existence of the Palestinian & Israeli states.. otherwise why would Palestine have been occupied by other Arab nations for so many years?
If Palestinains were a majority in Israel they would vote it out of existence. Why wouldn't they? Also, the situation I presented was hypothetical.Deleted User wrote: »Democracy? Rubbish. Again... It would have been a Jewish run nation, with Jewish laws, and the capacity to prevent anything like that occurring.
So an apartheid state then, where the majority are not Jewish.Deleted User wrote: »I totally agree. It wouldn't have been possible unless the Jews had been killed off, which oddly enough is what the Arab nations including Palestine tried to do by declaring war with the goal of Israel's destruction in mind.
As for ethnic cleansing, you have still to prove how this occurred.
No, I don't. You simply like to pretend that because Israel was not a 100% successful that it does not amount to ethnic cleansing, which is ridiculous. Do we not call what happened in Rwanda genocide? They weren't a 100% successful either btw. Again, you provide a poor excuse for what Israel did.
As, for what the Arab nations did, well last time I checked a bunch of invaders declaring a state against the will of the majority indigenous people, is an act of war. Honestly, its ridiculous to expect them to give up half there nation to a bunch of Europeans, because other Europeans tried to wipe them out and the 2000 year old land claims is pretty ridiculous as well. Using that logic, everyone here can take over Africa, as thats where humanity originates from. The majority population has every right to reject partion, especially when the half there country was going to be given to European immigrants and refugee's. No people would ever agree to that and Zionists demands were simply ridiculous, this is what lead to war Sop
I know the UN created Israel, but oddly anything the UN says now is completely disregarded nowadays and the only thing that matters is when the UN agress with Israel. Strange that.
[sarcasm]I know when it comes to this conflict, Israel is never at fault and that its always someone elses fault and that its reasonable to go to someone else country and declare a state. Its not like no other people in the world would have gone to war in such a situation[/sarcasm]0
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