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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians
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No, the majority was created via ethnic cleansing. The immigration happened after that.
How would they have managed that? If there was such a majority of Palestinians in the area, how did the Jews of the time perform ethnic cleansing on them? And again I will say, that you have yet to prove how ethnic cleansing occurred...
The immigration was occurring during the talks about the creation of Israel.What does it have to do with the Palestinians exactly? Is it there fault? Did they drives out Jews from there homes? No, they didn't. So I don't see what it has to do with the Palestinians.
I always find it funny that people call me one sided, when the bring up stuff that is not the fault of the Palestinians. Again, the fact that other Arab nations kicked out Jews, has nothing to do with what Zionists did to the Palestinians. The whole guilt by association thing is pretty silly.
So what if I didn't mention in this thread before. I mentioned it just now. I fail to see how me not saying it before, has any bearing on whether I mean it or not. I didn't condemn the atrocities in the Congo in this thread before, does that mean by your logic, I support them, or that by only condemning it now, that I am not being entirely truthful?
I say its one sided because you're focusing purely on the Palestinians... You ignore other factors in the overall picture, which begs the question as to what else you are ignoring simply because the Palestinians weren't directly responsible...
As for not mentioning it before, in a topic where you're quite vocal about your opinions, its strange that no mention of it has come from you before. That's all.Again, what Israel done was ethnic cleansing, they were not a 100% successful, but then the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia wasn't a 100% successful, but people rightly call it that.
I haven't said that ethnic cleansing needs to be 100%...So the UN has the right to give away other people countries without consulting the majority population? Seesm like a recipe for trouble.
Pretty much. Its something they did in Eastern europe also. But in this case the Palestinians were consulted in the creation of the Palestinian state.What you don't understand is that trying to create a "Jewish" state is impossible without a Jewish majority. It would not be a Jewish state, if the majority aren't Jewish. It would be an apartheid state.
What you seem to not understand is that they wouldn't need a majority of Jews in Israel since it was to be created as a Jewish state, not a even mixed state. The UN proposal held that the Palestinians would move intentionally to either Palestine or Jordan rather than live under Jewish rule.
And yes it would pretty much have been an apartheid state....Also, the Israeli's would not be with in there rights to prevent the majority changing the laws. You see when a group does that, we call it apartheid.
Now we call it apartheid. When Israel and Palestine were to be created there wasn't any such major definition, and it would have been ignored just like South Africa was ignored.Well, invading a country in the Middle East tends to lead to that. Just ask the cruasaders.
Fair enough. But your response doesn't change my point that those Palestinians lived under military rule because everyone in Israel was living under military rule.If Palestinains were a majority in Israel they would vote it out of existence. Why wouldn't they? Also, the situation I presented was hypothetical.
Of course it was hypothetical, since it would never have happened.So an apartheid state then, where the majority are not Jewish.
Well, lets be hypothetical here, and suggest that it would have been possible for the Jewish to be in charge, and to give the Arabs in Israel partial/limited representation in the country. In so far as to affecting the changing of laws, but not changing the sovereignty of the country?No, I don't. You simply like to pretend that because Israel was not a 100% successful that it does not amount to ethnic cleansing, which is ridiculous. Do we not call what happened in Rwanda genocide? They weren't a 100% successful either btw. Again, you provide a poor excuse for what Israel did.
I'm not looking to excuse what Israel did. I'm trying to prevent further crap being made up about the subject. There are too much vague and biased opinions floating around on this subject which don't deal heavily on the facts. I'd prefer to see realistic opinions on the subject. If you're going to cast blame on Israel, deal with the facts of the matter rather than opinions....
And yes you do, regarding proving the ethnic cleansing, since its an ill formed opinion, until proven. I could just as easily say that Palestinian militant eat Israeli babies whenever they can... No doubt i would be asked to prove it. Which I'm asking you to do in this case...As, for what the Arab nations did, well last time I checked a bunch of invaders declaring a state against the will of the majority indigenous people, is an act of war.
A rather severe response wouldn't you say when they had the chance to settle this through negotiation? The Arabs and the Palestinians pulled out of the talks regarding the creation of Palestine & Israel, and chose to enforce their opinions through warfare. Had they continued through negotiation they probably would have gained a better position for future settlements. The creation of Israel was going to happen. It had the will of the western world & the UN behind that creation, so it was going to happen regardless. But they chose the most short-sighted & unrealistic of options...Honestly, its ridiculous to expect them to give up half there nation to a bunch of Europeans, because other Europeans tried to wipe them out and the 2000 year old land claims is pretty ridiculous as well.
Half their nation? What nation? They didn't have a nation prior to this proposal. There was no Palestinian state in existence for the last 1000 plus years....Using that logic, everyone here can take over Africa, as thats where humanity originates from. The majority population has every right to reject partion, especially when the half there country was going to be given to European immigrants and refugee's. No people would ever agree to that and Zionists demands were simply ridiculous, this is what lead to war Sop
I think you're being silly now. Whats Africa got to do with anything here? I haven't suggested anything to do with origins. You introduced it.
The only reason I believe that Israel has a right to exist is because they are there now. Was it wrong to create them in the M.East? Possibly. I don't really know. I personally view it as irrelevant.I know the UN created Israel, but oddly anything the UN says now is completely disregarded nowadays and the only thing that matters is when the UN agress with Israel. Strange that.
Really? Disregarded by whom? Oh, by everyone, since the UN has been shown to be rather toothless since Iraq...
But directly after WW2, the UN was not toothless, and their directives were definitly worth paying attention to.
I think part of the problem here is that you're applying modern day morals, logics, assumptions etc to something that happened over 50 years ago. The simple fact is that the world was a far different place back then. The last 40 years has created the basis for human rights, proper international law etc. You keep assuming that the standards we value today should have been common knowledge back then.[sarcasm]I know when it comes to this conflict, Israel is never at fault and that its always someone elses fault and that its reasonable to go to someone else country and declare a state. Its not like no other people in the world would have gone to war in such a situation[/sarcasm]
haha... Sarcasm? I've said plenty of times that Israel is at fault in their actions. The manner they pursue the occupation, the settlements, the expulsions of residents, the imprisonment of innocents etc. Israel is not an innocent part by any means...
But, and here is the but... There is too much focus on Israeli responsibility, without a similar criticism of Palestinian responsibility. I could say more, but i'll keep it simple, and easy to understand.
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Deleted User wrote: »How would they have managed that? If there was such a majority of Palestinians in the area, how did the Jews of the time perform ethnic cleansing on them? And again I will say, that you have yet to prove how ethnic cleansing occurred...
Again, you admit expulsions took place. You simply say it is not ethnic cleansing, as they were not a 100% successful. I say it is. Once again this is a poor defence, as we call plenty of other expulsions ethnic cleansing that were not a 100% successful.
Also, having a better military is all they needed.Deleted User wrote: »The immigration was occurring during the talks about the creation of Israel.
It happened way before that.Deleted User wrote: »I say its one sided because you're focusing purely on the Palestinians... You ignore other factors in the overall picture, which begs the question as to what else you are ignoring simply because the Palestinians weren't directly responsible...
I would disagree, its ridiculous to bring up something that has nothing to do with the Palestinians. You brought it up directly in relation to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, which they had nothing to do with.Deleted User wrote: »As for not mentioning it before, in a topic where you're quite vocal about your opinions, its strange that no mention of it has come from you before. That's all.
Well, I haven't brought up the Sabra and Shatila masscre in the thread either. Plenty of other things I haven't brought up. I find it strange that you are ignoring all the other things I haven't brought up.Deleted User wrote: »I haven't said that ethnic cleansing needs to be 100%...
Yeah, you basically said that. You said there were Palestinians still there and therefore it was not ethnic cleansing.Deleted User wrote: »Pretty much. Its something they did in Eastern europe also. But in this case the Palestinians were consulted in the creation of the Palestinian state.
They rejected giving away half there country to foreigners, which they had every right to do.Deleted User wrote: »What you seem to not understand is that they wouldn't need a majority of Jews in Israel since it was to be created as a Jewish state, not a even mixed state. The UN proposal held that the Palestinians would move intentionally to either Palestine or Jordan rather than live under Jewish rule.
Which is ethnic cleansing. Making things so intolerable for people so they will move. Again, you admit for a Jewish state to exist you need to get rid of the Palestinians, but just won't call it what it is.Deleted User wrote: »And yes it would pretty much have been an apartheid state....
Which, isn't a situation that would last forever.Deleted User wrote: »Now we call it apartheid. When Israel and Palestine were to be created there wasn't any such major definition, and it would have been ignored just like South Africa was ignored.
It would have only been ignored for so long just like South Africa, the Zionists knew that the siutation would be unsustainable.Deleted User wrote: »Fair enough. But your response doesn't change my point that those Palestinians lived under military rule because everyone in Israel was living under military rule.
If I remember correctly they were under direct military rule for a lot longer.Deleted User wrote: »Of course it was hypothetical, since it would never have happened.
Fair enough.Deleted User wrote: »Well, lets be hypothetical here, and suggest that it would have been possible for the Jewish to be in charge, and to give the Arabs in Israel partial/limited representation in the country. In so far as to affecting the changing of laws, but not changing the sovereignty of the country?
The country would still not have a Jewish majaority. This is what the Zionists wanted and what they called a Jewish state, hence all the expulsions.Deleted User wrote: »I'm not looking to excuse what Israel did. I'm trying to prevent further crap being made up about the subject. There are too much vague and biased opinions floating around on this subject which don't deal heavily on the facts. I'd prefer to see realistic opinions on the subject. If you're going to cast blame on Israel, deal with the facts of the matter rather than opinions....
Plenty of opinion coming from yourself as well, so perhaps you should practice what you preach first.Deleted User wrote: »And yes you do, regarding proving the ethnic cleansing, since its an ill formed opinion, until proven. I could just as easily say that Palestinian militant eat Israeli babies whenever they can... No doubt i would be asked to prove it. Which I'm asking you to do in this case...
You already admitted to explusions taking place. Now you are asking me to prove them? I see no reason to do so. The difference is that you consider the expulsions to not be ethnic cleansing, as they didn't kick out all the Palestinians.Deleted User wrote: »A rather severe response wouldn't you say when they had the chance to settle this through negotiation? The Arabs and the Palestinians pulled out of the talks regarding the creation of Palestine & Israel, and chose to enforce their opinions through warfare. Had they continued through negotiation they probably would have gained a better position for future settlements. The creation of Israel was going to happen. It had the will of the western world & the UN behind that creation, so it was going to happen regardless. But they chose the most short-sighted & unrealistic of options...
Most people deal with invasion as an act of war. Most people don't just lie down and die. I would say the Western world had no business giving away other peoples countries and quite frankly the Western world were being unreasonable as were the Zionists. War was inevitable, as no people on this planet would put up with this.
You see the Zionists and there supporters were short sighted if they taught the situation would not lead to conflict.Deleted User wrote: »Half their nation? What nation? They didn't have a nation prior to this proposal. There was no Palestinian state in existence for the last 1000 plus years....
So? They lived there and were being asked to give half of it away.Deleted User wrote: »I think you're being silly now. Whats Africa got to do with anything here? I haven't suggested anything to do with origins. You introduced it.
Exactly, I am using the African example to show how silly Zionism is.Deleted User wrote: »The only reason I believe that Israel has a right to exist is because they are there now. Was it wrong to create them in the M.East? Possibly. I don't really know. I personally view it as irrelevant.
I have no issue with Israel being there now, and I think it is relevant as the state was created by kicking the Palestinians, who are still effected by this to this day. If what happened then had no effect on now, then I would agree with you.Deleted User wrote: »Really? Disregarded by whom? Oh, by everyone, since the UN has been shown to be rather toothless since Iraq...
By Israel and her supproters.Deleted User wrote: »But directly after WW2, the UN was not toothless, and their directives were definitly worth paying attention to.
I would disagree, the UN was just the same back then. Russia and the US would veto anything they didn't like back then as well.Deleted User wrote: »I think part of the problem here is that you're applying modern day morals, logics, assumptions etc to something that happened over 50 years ago. The simple fact is that the world was a far different place back then. The last 40 years has created the basis for human rights, proper international law etc. You keep assuming that the standards we value today should have been common knowledge back then.
I am applying common sense. You go to someone else country with the express intention to take it over, you should not be surprised, when the other guys will keep on fighting and fighting.
Also, the rules for international law were set up back then. The UN was involved in this as you know. So you can't pretend these morals, were not in existence. Even back then, giving away something that doesn't belong to you, was wrong.Deleted User wrote: »haha... Sarcasm? I've said plenty of times that Israel is at fault in their actions. The manner they pursue the occupation, the settlements, the expulsions of residents, the imprisonment of innocents etc. Israel is not an innocent part by any means...
But, and here is the but... There is too much focus on Israeli responsibility, without a similar criticism of Palestinian responsibility. I could say more, but i'll keep it simple, and easy to understand.
Well, its very simple, Israel are the occupier and the Palestinians the occupied, hence the difference.
**EDIT**Deleted User wrote: »Ahh, but there is no completely Jewish state. Ethnic cleansing didn't occur because many non-jews remained within the borders of the new jewish state, and were not either expelled or left of their own accord.
The simple fact of history is that Israel did expell & kill Arabs during the War. It also allowed many to remain in their borders, who continue to live to this day. By your own reasoning, the Arab nations at the same time, performed ethnic cleansing by forcing Jews to leave their countries to join with Israel, and yet I rarely see it mentioned.
As can be clearly seen from your own post. You say expulsions happened, but it was not ethnic cleansing. You say it was not ethnic cleansing. because not all the Palestinians were kicked out. I disagree, as we have seen from the conflict in the Balkans, the term ethnic cleansings is used there and the Serbians were not a 100% successful in ethnic cleansing either. Once again, you admit expulsions took place, and say these expulsiosn were not ethnic cleansing. I see no reason to prove that these expulsions took place, but you insist that it is not ethnic cleansing, as the Zionists were not a 100% successful, which I disagree with.
From Encyclopedia Britanica defintion of "Ethnic cleansing":the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.
So we have expulsions by Zionists to create a Jewish state. The desire of the Zionists to create a Jewish state is a fact and the expulsions are a fact. Seems pretty clear cut to me what took place. Of course, every excuse possible is often made to try and pretend what Zionists did was not ethnic cleansing.0 -
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As theres no mobile coverage in the afterlife at the moment, I'd have to say that any such excercise would be mired in futility from the outset.
you never know with todays technology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAgyv2MKyI&eurl=http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=59094251
you cant be serious right!
you cant really watch this and tell me this is a report and not propaganda. it is completely one sided... you see nothing hear nothing and they tell you nothing.
they show Israel building on ""Palestine Land"" yet they don't show blinding in the other direction... they show the soldiers that are in the house which never stay more then a day by the way, (did I mention Israel is at war? because the other side wont accept peace?) and they usually do that when there is shoots and attacks coming from a building near by. and no the soldiers try to stay out of the way as much as possible unless they are ass holes (did I mention Israel is at war? because the other side wont accept peace?).
so please don't tell me that is real report, it is completely one sided and reports nothing. I can do the same for the other side as well, show you pictures of the poor people living near the border which have rockets land beside there houses and children panicking and on an on but that would again be the poor victim propaganda, and I'm not going in to that again because both sides are victims.I'm interested in what you mean when you say you can't stand Israelis. What kind of Israelis do you mean ?
most of them as some of them are really aggressively mannered because they situation they live in.You say you have been in the army, if that's true then you will have seen first hand the daily harassments and and unfair treatment that the Palestinians have to endure and yet you say they have equal rights ???
yes there is daily harassments and and unfair treatment, but that is what they choose not Israel. Israel is simply forced in to it.
believe me soldiers (I know I use to do it) hate it like hell, you think its fun to tell people they cant pass because today they have the wrong papers.0 -
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My god you write a lot and fast :eek:
I cant do that, it takes me an hour to respond.Do you think it's acceptable for any army to go into a private home and hold a family hostage like that anytime it suits them ? Would your family put up with that here ? I don't think so !!! NO ONE should have to live in fear or have their lives disrupted like that. They do this on a regular basis, as you know, and not only when there is shooting. There were no attacks at the time that was being filmed. There is no excuse in the world for behaviour like that from a supposidly well trained and well disciplined army and if they do it when there are attacks then they are using those families as human shields, just like Hamas are accused of doing. No better than terrorists then
Yes I agree its really bad (lack of better word at the moment) and I don't agree it is necessary. BUT! when fighting an army hidden inside a population this is what happens. and the ""Funny"" thing is that this is exactly what hamas want, as they get ***""people like you"" to look at the Israelis and go "oh no those mean bad horrible people are going in to peoples homes for their war... but that sadly is the only way to fight a terrorist army (my definition of terrorist army is and army with no permanent location which it can be found at).
so again yes it is the Hamas (which the Palestinians elected) will.
Israel sadly is dumb (or smart, depends how you look at it) enough to play in to their hands.Get real !!! Who would choose to be treated like dogs ? Those people in the West Bank are not the ones firing the rockets.
True but they are ""OK"" with it to the point where they will not do anything about it.
let me tell you if there was a government in Israel causing damage and risk to my family with no reason ("which the citizen believe they have" "to take back Israel in the Palestinians case"). I would fight it in any way necessary! especially being a Jewish you learn from history you cant let any government turn against your own good.
lets Play a Game, we will call it Palestine does Israel reacts with a mistake forced upon it. Ready here we go:
round 1
Palestine: Riots or\and Itifada (a so called holly war) Israel: Has to close the border with Gaza, all Israelis are to afraid to go visit any more business in Palestine just about dies out.
round 2
Palestine: suicide bombers go in to Israel and blow up buses... Israel: Check points are made to screen people and all Palestine's need an approval before entering Israel for any reason which creates a horrible situation for Palestine's!
Round 3
Palestine: suicide bombing increase in number where to the point where Israelis are asking for all out war with Palestine which does not even have an army. Israel: as the governments all fall after 1 or 2 year period as no one would dare attack Palestine (as for humanity reasons) there is a decision made to build a wall that will simply separate the two ""country's"". (the wall is never finished because of international pressure and just makes life hell for people living near it and completely miss its prepuce as some bombing still arise.
Round 4 (and I'm going to skip the part where Israel withdraws completely from the Gaza strip so there is a chance for a Palestinian State)
Palestine(Hamas): starts to fire rockets in to Israel at an Increasing rate daily, as there is no Israeli army any where near Gaza in order to stop it.
Israel: wait a really really long time as half the country (the south which is being bombed) is raising absolute hell to make the government react(seeing as they are being bombed and all). eventually Israel reacts with strong force as they know if they attack a country with no army they will be stopped by International pressure eventually, so the Hamas must be ""stopped"" in the time frame given. and hundred of Palestinians die (BTW:which was sad for Israelis as well!!).
Future: (by me) or shell I call it round 5...
Palestine: keeps the rockets flying in to Israel now that there is a (one sided as usual) cease-fire, while keep talking about what Israel needs to do for peace.
Israel: try's to make peace (sort of, as they do it half hatred for obvious reason stated above) while now that there is no chance of calm in the area allow some of the settlements to return to Gaza as it would consist a good defense line (setters are crazy people which Israel is more then happy to use as a human shield!). and on and on and on....
and keeps being the some old boring thing....
** just a funny (sad) personal story. I left Israel for 5 years and had a Israeli newspaper in my bag. and then when I went to visit not long a go I go a new Israeli newspaper (they give you for free on the plan so you can feel like ****) and I looked at them both and Nothing has changed! still the same all most peace... OOPS war all most peace... OOPS war....
that's it really 0 -
My god you write a lot and fast :eek:
I cant do that, it takes me an hour to respond.
Yes I agree its really bad (lack of better word at the moment) and I don't agree it is necessary. BUT! when fighting an army hidden inside a population this is what happens. and the ""Funny"" thing is that this is exactly what hamas want, as they get ***""people like you"" to look at the Israelis and go "oh no those mean bad horrible people are going in to peoples homes for their war... but that sadly is the only way to fight a terrorist army (my definition of terrorist army is and army with no permanent location which it can be found at).
so again yes it is the Hamas (which the Palestinians elected) will.
Israel sadly is dumb (or smart, depends how you look at it) enough to play in to their hands.
True but they are ""OK"" with it to the point where they will not do anything about it.
let me tell you if there was a government in Israel causing damage and risk to my family with no reason ("which the citizen believe they have" "to take back Israel in the Palestinians case"). I would fight it in any way necessary! especially being a Jewish you learn from history you cant let any government turn against your own good.
lets Play a Game, we will call it Palestine does Israel reacts with a mistake forced upon it. Ready here we go:
round 1
Palestine: Riots or\and Itifada (a so called holly war) Israel: Has to close the border with Gaza, all Israelis are to afraid to go visit any more business in Palestine just about dies out.
round 2
Palestine: suicide bombers go in to Israel and blow up buses... Israel: Check points are made to screen people and all Palestine's need an approval before entering Israel for any reason which creates a horrible situation for Palestine's!
Round 3
Palestine: suicide bombing increase in number where to the point where Israelis are asking for all out war with Palestine which does not even have an army. Israel: as the governments all fall after 1 or 2 year period as no one would dare attack Palestine (as for humanity reasons) there is a decision made to build a wall that will simply separate the two ""country's"". (the wall is never finished because of international pressure and just makes life hell for people living near it and completely miss its prepuce as some bombing still arise.
Round 4 (and I'm going to skip the part where Israel withdraws completely from the Gaza strip so there is a chance for a Palestinian State)
Palestine(Hamas): starts to fire rockets in to Israel at an Increasing rate daily, as there is no Israeli army any where near Gaza in order to stop it.
Israel: wait a really really long time as half the country (the south which is being bombed) is raising absolute hell to make the government react(seeing as they are being bombed and all). eventually Israel reacts with strong force as they know if they attack a country with no army they will be stopped by International pressure eventually, so the Hamas must be ""stopped"" in the time frame given. and hundred of Palestinians die (BTW:which was sad for Israelis as well!!).
Future: (by me) or shell I call it round 5...
Palestine: keeps the rockets flying in to Israel now that there is a (one sided as usual) cease-fire, while keep talking about what Israel needs to do for peace.
Israel: try's to make peace (sort of, as they do it half hatred for obvious reason stated above) while now that there is no chance of calm in the area allow some of the settlements to return to Gaza as it would consist a good defense line (setters are crazy people which Israel is more then happy to use as a human shield!). and on and on and on....
and keeps being the some old boring thing....
** just a funny (sad) personal story. I left Israel for 5 years and had a Israeli newspaper in my bag. and then when I went to visit not long a go I go a new Israeli newspaper (they give you for free on the plan so you can feel like ****) and I looked at them both and Nothing has changed! still the same all most peace... OOPS war all most peace... OOPS war....
that's it really
.
Hi, Sorry I'm just getting back to you now, I was away.
I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you don't try to paint a pretty picture of everything that's happening in Israel.but I can't accept that Israel wants peace.
They have done everything to stall peace over the years by continuing to build settlements in direct defiance of International requests.They continue to treat the Palestinians with contempt with forced evictions and demolition of their homes.Tonight on TV they are going to evict nearly 1,500 and demolish 80 houses saying they are illegal. One man had the deeds of his house which showed his family had lived there since 1920 !!!
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/02/2009222211021436690.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/02/2009216134248562227.html
They continue with the sadistic siege in Gaza, where they have 1.5 million people locked in a prison without enough food, water, electricity, medicines or any of the normal things we take for granted. The kids can't even get paper for school as it's not allowed in. Lentils and pasta are prohibited too !!
2 US Congressmen visiting Gaza said
"When have lentil bombs been going off lately? Is someone going to kill you with a piece of macaroni?" asked Rep. Brian Baird (D-Washington).
The ban on lentils and pasta was symbolic of a policy that was "idiosyncratic and arbitrary. You look stupid and petty and over-controlling when do you this," Baird said."
Of their visit to the West Bank they said
"Baird and Ellison said they heard from doctors, medical technicians and patients about how difficult it was to move around.
"When you are making a child undergoing chemotherapy and his mother and father stand in line for hours to try to get to a hospital, you are not creating friends, you are not improving security, you are creating rage," Baird said.
As a father, he could only imagine how he would feel in that situation, he said. "
http://wwwjpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1233304841488&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
All this hasn't just happened in the last year or 2. I've been following it for 30 years as I've said before and as you say nothing changes, except that the number of people who are disabled and injured because of Israel's violence, and who are refugees and homeless, keep growing year by year.
If the tables were turned and it was the Israelis who were being treated like this I would feel exactly the same. No human being should have to live like that.0 -
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