1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

wes

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/The-Mystery-Dead-Of-Gaza-2-20-2009.asp

I generally find the stories on this site to be insightful and accurate.

I would disagree, they seem to be the only people reporting this and most of the article is mostly about Jenin, in fact there is only 1 paragraph on the recent conflict. This makes the whole thing highly suspect, as they seem to present very little on what happened in Gaza recently, probably because they have nothing much in the way or proof of there claims, so are trying to say that because some people lied in the past, they must be doing so now. This accusation could just as easily be leveled against Israel, as they have been caught out lieing several times in the past, as well as the most recent conflict.

They article claims "medical personnel" said there were only 500 dead. They give no names for these spokes people or identify there position or anything like that.

Just today in the Guardian story about Amnesty Internationals investigation into the conflict repeat the figures for Palestinian dead and they go into far more detail about the actual confclit in Gaza as opposed to what happned in Jenin a few years ago.

Anyway here is the relevant bit of article:

From the Guardian.co.uk

For their part, Palestinian militants in Gaza were arming themselves with "unsophisticated weapons" including rockets made in Russia, Iran and China and bought from "clandestine sources", it said. About 1,300 Palestinians were killed and more than 4,000 injured during the three-week conflict. On the Israeli side 13 were killed, including three civilians. Amnesty said Israel's armed forces carried out "direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects in Gaza, and attacks which were disproportionate or indiscriminate".

Also, Israel in both Jenin and Gaza, did not allow in media people. So confusion is bound to reign in such situations and that is at the best of times.

ldl1949

Its sad that all most no real reporting occers, and all you can find today is a one side of the story depnding on the news channel you listen to.


people should be left to decide on thier own.

paulaa

"Reconciliation talks in Cairo lead to an agreement between rival Palestinian factions to establish a unity government by the end of March.

The factions agreed to form several committees that will pave the way for a unity government, an official with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Jamil al-Majdalawi, told AFP on Thursday.

"The committees will end their work and a Palestinian unity government will be formed by the end of March," he said.

The revelation was confirmed by deputy leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Mohammed al-Hindi.

A Palestinian national dialogue opened in Cairo on Thursday under Egyptian auspices with hopes that a dozen Palestinian groups can agree on a new government and reunite the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Fatah and Hamas agreed to pursue confidence-building measures in order to resolve the fate of prisoners captured by both sides and to halt the exchange of accusations between the two.

Fatah and Hamas have long been rivals but their feud boiled over in 2007 when Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip.

Egypt had initially asked for the Palestinian reconciliation dialogue in November. Hamas, however, pulled out of the talks at the fateful moment in protest at Fatah's continued detentions of Hamas members in the West Bank.

The Palestinian unity negotiations were relaunched by Egypt following the recent Israeli onslaught on the impoverished coastal sliver of Gaza.

Over 1,300 Gazans -- mostly women and children -- were killed during the military operations launched on December 27. Buildings along with the infrastructure were also devastated."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/articles/34/Palestinians_to_form_unity_government.html

Nodin

Twould be good if they could get it together.

ldl1949

Over 1,300 Gazans -- mostly women and children

you cant seriously read that and think this wasn't written with the point of making Israel look like they just attack randomly.

Pure propaganda.

also it was proven that mostly men between 18 to 30 died (which is "fighting age"), so spare me the lies.

Also at the moment rockets are STILL being fired at Israel on a daily basis, even thow Israel has its the attack.

truthfully I dont think Israel should have stoped the attack as all that happend is that a lot of people died and nothing was achived... But this is the problem with doing half the work.
so there is more then likly to be a secound wave some time in the coming year which will probably also achive nothing, just like the last 20 years...

wes

ldl1949 wrote: »

you cant seriously read that and think this wasn't written with the point of making Israel look like they just attack randomly.

Pure propaganda.

You keep saying that, but I can't see how all the major western News sources are propoganda.

ldl1949 wrote: »

also it was proven that mostly men between 18 to 30 died (which is "fighting age"), so spare me the lies.

Proven by whom exactly?

Also, even it it was true, why is it ok to kill young men? If Hamas just killed Israeli males of that age, we would still call it terrorism, regardless of whether those men were of fighting age or not. Of course, you have no real proof these men were involved in any kind of terrorism, but the fact they are of fighting age is enough to excuse there deaths.

ldl1949 wrote: »

Also at the moment rockets are STILL being fired at Israel on a daily basis, even thow Israel has its the attack.

truthfully I dont think Israel should have stoped the attack as all that happend is that a lot of people died and nothing was achived... But this is the problem with doing half the work.
so there is more then likly to be a secound wave some time in the coming year which will probably also achive nothing, just like the last 20 years...

Israels occupation and colonization are still going strong last time I checked as well. Not to mention other violence committed by Israel. Both sides need to stop.

paulaa

Nodin wrote: »

Twould be good if they could get it together.

Yes it would. Then the old stalling tactic of saying "We have no one to negotiate with in Gaza" would be redundant.

paulaa

ldl1949 wrote: »

you cant seriously read that and think this wasn't written with the point of making Israel look like they just attack randomly.

Pure propaganda.

also it was proven that mostly men between 18 to 30 died (which is "fighting age"), so spare me the lies.

Also at the moment rockets are STILL being fired at Israel on a daily basis, even thow Israel has its the attack.

truthfully I dont think Israel should have stoped the attack as all that happend is that a lot of people died and nothing was achived... But this is the problem with doing half the work.
so there is more then likly to be a secound wave some time in the coming year which will probably also achive nothing, just like the last 20 years...

The UN, the Red Cross, Human Rights groups and a multitude of countries don't agree with you that it is "pure propaganda".

It has not " been proven" at all that it was mostly militants who were killed. That is just an excuse that's being used by Israel and her apologists for the slaughter of women and 400 children which should never have happened. How many of those 400 children and babies were carrying guns and firing rockets?

It's disgusting that such a mockery of the dead and maimed is being made to try and make Israel look good and keep those responsible out of the International court in the Hague.

The fact that Israel's only answer to the rockets from Gaza is more slaughter and violence only goes to show that it has failed again and again and has learned nothing. Just like her attempts to starve and destroy the people with the 2 year siege.

What it has achieved is to make the world aware of the plight of the Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank. People are sitting up and taking notice like never before and there is a growing movement worldwide to make Israel answerable for her Human Rights abuses, racist and apartheid practices and everyday violence against the Palestinian people.

When you say they shouldn't have stopped in Gaza, do you think that they should have kept going until they had wiped out everyone living there?

sceptre

ldl1949 wrote: »

also it was proven that mostly men between 18 to 30 died (which is "fighting age"), so spare me the lies.

Kindly look up the reference to lying in the forum charter and keep it in mind when posting. It's there for a reason. Discussion/argument with me about its significance can be had by sending me a PM, not on-thread. Thank you.

ldl1949

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7855070.stm

how does a third consist "mostly women and children" and you should understand a little about who you are dealing with to know why this result looks like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gw_TIi4-60

Lemming

ldl1949 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7855070.stm

And your opinion on, and/or reasons for, posting this article are?

wes

ldl1949 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7855070.stm

how does a third consist "mostly women and children" and you should understand a little about who you are dealing with to know why this result looks like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gw_TIi4-60

From your own article:

Dr Younis said 85% of those killed were not combatants, whom he defined as those taking up arms against Israeli troops.
"When a policeman is bombed on his morning march, he is not a combatant," he said.

So 85% were civilians who were killed, which is nothing short of appaling.

Also, the reason for so many civilian dead, is that Israel does not consider a policeman (or any male of "fighting age" apparently) etc a civilian.

Now if an Israeli policeman was killed it would be called terrorism and ridiculous excuses would be called exactly what they are.

Nodin

The international criminal court is considering whether the Palestinian Authority is "enough like a state" for it to bring a case alleging that Israeli troops committed war crimes in the recent assault on Gaza.
The deliberations would potentially open the way to putting Israeli military commanders in the dock at The Hague over the campaign, which claimed more than 1,300 lives, and set an important precedent for the court over what cases it can hear.
As part of the process the court's head of jurisdictions, part of the office of the prosecutor, is examining every international agreement signed by the PA to decide whether it behaves - and is regarded by others - as operating like a state.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/02/israel-war-crimes-gaza

Shame they haven't been reefed before now. However the US will doubtless shield them, as ever.

paulaa

For those who say that Israelis want peace, read this article and then read the responses at the bottom.This talk of "peace" is nothing more than a stalling tactic that Israel has used for years to keep her donors sending billions of $ every year so that Olmert & co can fill their pockets and boost their already bulging foreign bank accounts and to continue building illegal settlements on stolen Palestinian land.

Israel planning 73,300 new homes in West Bank

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1068033.html

Meanwhile Gazan families are living in appalling conditions like this after heavy rains in the last few days.



http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/pictures/index.htm?region=ME

paulaa

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/02/israel-war-crimes-gaza

Shame they haven't been reefed before now. However the US will doubtless shield them, as ever.

Thanks for the link Nodin. I think it's becoming nigh impossible for the US and others to keep making excuses for Israel's blatent disregard for Internation law and immoral actions.

Israel must be running scared because a couple of weeks ago they were obliterating the records of soldiers and commanders involved in Cast lead and promising them that they would be safe from prosecution. Why do that if they are so convinced they acted correctly ?

ldl1949

Some insite to the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_CjAZuqIAk&feature=PlayList&p=F1CE4CB7A99401AD&playnext=1&index=4

listen and learn

Nodin

ldl1949 wrote: »

Some insite to the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_CjAZuqIAk&feature=PlayList&p=F1CE4CB7A99401AD&playnext=1&index=4

listen and learn

Explain to me precisely what bearing on reality that speech has, when it doesn't address whats going on in this post here.....http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59244593&postcount=3585

paulaa

ldl1949 wrote: »

Some insite to the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_CjAZuqIAk&feature=PlayList&p=F1CE4CB7A99401AD&playnext=1&index=4

listen and learn

Yes. And......?

wes

ldl1949 wrote: »

Some insite to the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_CjAZuqIAk&feature=PlayList&p=F1CE4CB7A99401AD&playnext=1&index=4

listen and learn

Nothing to learn here, but the same old tired excuses offered by the Israeli government. Honestly, does he actually think people are going to believe that Israel wants peace, when they are actively colonizing Palestinian land, as can be clearly seen from the link posted earlier? It laughable for Perez to think people will actually buy there excuses.

**EDIT**
Also the following story from the Independent:
The pasta, paper and hearing aids that could threaten Israeli security

Pasta and paper being bloody banned is appalling, but Mr. Perez would like to pretend that this act of collective punishment is some how ok. Of course it is clearly an act of state terrorism, against every single Palestinian Man, Woman and Child who are being punished.

Of course the following statement by a Israeli government advisor shows Israel true intent:

From the Nation.com:
The Strangulation of Gaza

**SNIP**
When Israel limited commercial shipments of food--but not humanitarian relief--into Gaza in 2006, a senior government adviser, Dov Weisglass, explained that "the idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet but not to make them die of hunger."
**SNIP**

The above is a truly appalling statement and shows Israel real intent and no amount of excuses from Mr Perez will work.

paulaa

wes wrote: »

Nothing to learn here, but the same old tired excuses offered by the Israeli government. Honestly, does he actually think people are going to believe that Israel wants peace, when they are actively colonizing Palestinian land, as can be clearly seen from the link posted earlier? It laughable for Perez to think people will actually buy there excuses.

**EDIT**
Also the following story from the Independent:
The pasta, paper and hearing aids that could threaten Israeli security

Pasta and paper being bloody banned is appalling, but Mr. Perez would like to pretend that this act of collective punishment is some how ok. Of course it is clearly an act of state terrorism, against every single Palestinian Man, Woman and Child who are being punished.

Of course the following statement by a Israeli government advisor shows Israel true intent:


The above is a truly appalling statement and shows Israel real intent and no amount of excuses from Mr Perez will work.

One of the most sickening things about the blockade of aid going into Gaza is that, in the link you posted, "the crossing at Kerem Shalom where goods are subject to a $1,000 (£700) per truck "handling fee" "
Never one to miss out on making a quick buck is Israel :rolleyes:

marcsignal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzqw7oBZT8k

ldl1949

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzqw7oBZT8k&eurl=http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=59287783

O he is so cute, he doesn't even have explosives on him and he doesn't even carrying a kalashnikov... really poor little guy all he did was select an extremist group that wants to destroy the much stronger nation beside him.

he really doesn't deserve all this...

wes

ldl1949 wrote: »

O he is so cute, he doesn't even have explosives on him and he doesn't even carrying a kalashnikov... really poor little guy all he did was select an extremist group that wants to destroy the much stronger nation beside him.

So all the children in Gaza, who can't vote deserve to be bombed as well?

Also, didn't Israels electorate elect Ariel Sharon? A man who even Israels own investigation into the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, said he has a personal responsibility for it?

Also, apparently his party is the centerist one. Of course, when Israel elects nutters who engage in continually colonization of what left of Palestine (and various other acts of state terrorism) it is ignored.

ldl1949 wrote: »

he really doesn't deserve all this...

Well, no he doesn't. No one deserves terrorism, be they Palestinian or Israeli. At the end of the day, what Israel is doing is state terrorism.

**EDIT**
There is a story about the cartoon Marc Signal posted in the Guardian today:

Animator of award-winning Israeli movie tackles Gaza

One of the people behind "Waltz with Bashir" (excellent film btw), was involved in making this. More in the link above.

paulaa

Pots of urine, feces in the refrigerator - how IDF troops vandalized Gaza homes

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1068989.html

ldl1949

Yes the Israeli army has as#$les in it, and some people from poor broken homes... but I guess it is to be expected when you declare war on a country.

wes

ldl1949 wrote: »

Yes the Israeli army has as#$les in it, and some people from poor broken homes... but I guess it is to be expected when you declare war on a country.

Well, the Israeli government and the IDF do themselves no favours, when they claim to be the "most moral army in the world".

So, when members of the IDF engage in appaling behaviour like this, such as de facto using people as human shields and imprisonment, they will be judged harshly.

the_syco

paulaa wrote: »

Why do that if they are so convinced they acted correctly ?

Because they know there'll be a witch hunt for them, and they also know that if their soldiers get imprisoned, Isreal is f**ked next time the terrorists who reside in Gaza, along with some of the locals, decide to bomb and attack Israel.

paulaa

the_syco wrote: »

Because they know there'll be a witch hunt for them, and they also know that if their soldiers get imprisoned, Isreal is f**ked next time the terrorists who reside in Gaza, along with some of the locals, decide to bomb and attack Israel.

Sounds more like covering their backsides because they know they have acted like savages. Anyway there's no fear of them running low on "heroes" to fight for them. All they have to do , as usual, is spread a little fear and propaganda and the gullible, naive and bloodthirsty will sign up in a flash

paulaa

ldl1949 wrote: »

Yes the Israeli army has as#$les in it, and some people from poor broken homes... but I guess it is to be expected when you declare war on a country.

I know people from broken homes and they do not act like Neanderthals. It is not expected from a civilised country, but then Israel is beginning to look more and more like a despotic 3rd world country than a "shining light of democracy"

http://www.jfjfp.org/background3_gaza-crisis_2008-09/kamlish_fidh.htm

IRISH RAIL

paulaa wrote: »

but then Israel is beginning to look more and more like a despotic 3rd world country than a "shining light of democracy"

they say while convenintly ignoring the terrorist attack in Jerusalem on thursda and the CONTINUING rockets and mortars from Gaza do people here think they stopped? do they think hamas are capable of stopping rocket fire ?
the answer is no they are not capable of stopping rocket fire because they want Israels destruction not just there own state or just the borders open.