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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians
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"Palestinian sources said that an American citizen, in his thirties, had sustained critical wounds during an anti-separation fence protest in the West Bank on Friday, Army Radio reported.
Peace activists with the International Solidarity Movement said Tristan Anderson, of the Oakland, Calif. area, was struck in the head with a tear gas canister fired by Israeli troops. The military and the Tel Aviv hospital where Anderson was taken had no details on how he was hurt.
Protesters who were at the scene said that Anderson was standing by the side of the road when soldiers fired at him, and not near the hub of the clash. They added that there was no one in his vicinity that could have been perceived as a threat to the soldiers.
"He's in critical condition, anesthetized and on a ventilator and undergoing imaging tests," said Orly Levi, a spokeswoman at the Tel Hashomer hospital. She described Anderson's condition as life-threatening.
The protest took place in the West Bank town of Na'alin, where Palestinians and international backers frequently gather to demonstrate against the barrier. Israel says the barrier is necessary to keep Palestinian attackers from infiltrating into Israel. But Palestinians view it as a thinly veiled land grab because it juts into the West Bank at multiple points. "
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1070940.html
From the International Middle East Media Centre with more information
"Tristan Anderson from California USA, 37 years old, has been taken to Israeli hospital Tel Hashomer, near Tel Aviv. Anderson is unconscious and has been bleeding heavily from the nose and mouth. He sustained a large hole in his forehead where he was struck by the canister. He is currently being operated on.
According to witness Teah Lunqvist from Sweden, a fellow activist in the International Solidarity Movement, “Tristan was shot by the new tear-gas canisters that can be shot up to 500m. I ran over as I saw someone had been shot, while the Israeli forces continued to fire tear-gas at us. When an ambulance came, the Israeli soldiers refused to allow the ambulance through the checkpoint just outside the village. After 5 minutes of arguing with the soldiers, the ambulance passed.”
The International Solidarity Movement reported that the Israeli army began using a high velocity tear gas canister in December 2008. The black canister, labeled in Hebrew as “40mm bullet special/long range,” can shoot over 400 meters. The gas canister does not make a noise when fired or emit a smoke tail. A combination of the canister’s high velocity and silence is extremely dangerous and has caused numerous injuries, including a Palestinian male whose leg was broken in January 2009.
Recently Israeli assaults on non-violent demonstrators in Nil’in have escalated, with four people killed since last year.
Ahmed Mousa (10) was shot in the forehead with live ammunition on 29th July 2008. The following day, Yousef Amira (17) was shot twice with rubber-coated steel bullets, leaving him brain dead. He died a week later on 4 August 2008. Arafat Rateb Khawaje (22), was the third Ni’lin resident to be killed by Israeli forces. He was shot in the back with live ammunition on 28 December 2008. That same day, Mohammed Khawaje (20), was shot in the head with live ammunition, leaving him brain dead. He died three days in a Ramallah hospital.
Residents in the village of Ni’lin hold weekly protests every Friday against the construction of the Apartheid Wall, deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004. Ni’lin will lose approximately 2500 dunums of agricultural land when the construction of the Wall is completed. Ni’lin was 57,000 dunums in 1948, reduced to 33,000 dunums in 1967, currently the town’s land is 10,000 dunums and will be 7,500 dunums after the construction of the Wall."
http://www.imemc.org/article/593320 -
If the idf had WANTED to kill that guy they could have shot him. Obviously they were trying to disperse the crowd and he got unlucky, its a tough break for him.
However one could observe that if he wasn't poking his do-gooder nose into other peoples affairs then he'd still be alive.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Which is an indication of Israeli presence on the Internet and the media, but you'd be blind to not see Palestinian influence all over the place too...
And Iranian....0 -
BlaasForRafa wrote: »
However one could observe that if he wasn't poking his do-gooder nose into other peoples affairs then he'd still be alive.
Yeah, do-gooders and bleeding hearts....0 -
BlaasForRafa wrote: »If the idf had WANTED to kill that guy they could have shot him. Obviously they were trying to disperse the crowd and he got unlucky, its a tough break for him.
However one could observe that if he wasn't poking his do-gooder nose into other peoples affairs then he'd still be alive.
If the IDF weren't like trigger-happy cowboys no one would have been hurt.l Their method of crowd control seem to be shoot indiscriminately at anyone, especially if they're unarmed. They don't dare shoot the rabid settlers in this way, only Palestinians and those who have the guts to support them.
"Most Moral and Best trained army in the world" ? I don't think so.
A lot of people are motivated by empathy with their fellow humans and a sense of justice and what is morally right. Others don't know the meaning of the words.0 -
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BlaasForRafa wrote: »And Iranian....
Ah ,the latest bogeyman that Israel is using to keep the billions in welfare money coming into her coffers. The scare mongering over Iran is ridiculous. This country hasn't preemptively attacked anyone for 300 years and has managed to advance itself despite sanctions (Israeli led) .
Israel should really sort out her own considerable problems at home, move from a theocracy to a true democracy, and stop trying to drag the US and the rest of the world into another pointless war. The Israeli intelligence that says that Iran is a threat is the same intelligence that fed the US and the UK the Great Iraqui Weapons of Mass Destruction Lie. I rest my case.0 -
They don't dare shoot the rabid settlers in this way, only Palestinians and those who have the guts to support them.
Well, this didn't take much Googling.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3549086/Hebron-settlers-evicted-by-Israel-police-with-tear-gas-and-stun-grenades.htmlHebron settlers evicted by Israel police with tear gas and stun grenades Around 20 people were injured when Israeli security forces staged a lightning fast eviction operation on a disputed house occupied by Right-wing Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
NTM0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »Well, this didn't take much Googling.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3549086/Hebron-settlers-evicted-by-Israel-police-with-tear-gas-and-stun-grenades.html
NTM
In all fairness MM How often does this happen? The soldiers and police are usually protecting the settlers when they go on their rampages against the Palestinians. They stand back and allow them to intimidate, beat and kill at will.
I'll bet any money that they also don't shoot them in the face or back with gas cannisters, rubber bullets or live ammo.0 -
So, then is there a concerted campaign from the other Arab states then?
I would say that a number of them do have dedicated desires to put out their own view of how things happened as opposed to what the Israeli's feel. The Arab invasions following the creation of Israel/Palestine by the UN would be a good point of reference. Just as many Israeli sites blur the truth and sometimes outright change history to support their cause so too do many arab sites across the net. Somehow I doubt they're all independent of the Arab governments desires...They actually have people on the ground a lot of the time. They actually go out and investigate things.
I know they do.. but they also deal in the accounts of witnesses. I'm not suggesting they're not reporting accurate information in the abuses made by both Israel and Palestinians. I'm saying that they often have to gain information from other sources than their own people.Reporters can say that there movements have been restricted. They can tell us where there information is coming from. Take the recent conflict, we knew that Israel was not allowing reporters into the strip and they told us.
And yet, there were loads of reports about the Israeli attacks, the manner of the attacks, and the accusations of testing weapons on the Palestinian population, along with video's showing some of the tests. The media got in there and reported what was happening. Maybe not loads of them, but more than a few were able to get in to report.
It would have been in the Palestinians interests to show reporters the damage done by Israel, both in lives and in destruction of the infrastructure. It would also eb in their interests to present the human side of war, and show how war affects individuals and their families. Just as Israel guides reporters to where they can find these stories to support their cause, so too do the Palestinians.An Israeli spokes person is a mouth piece for the government, which is very different to a Palestinian talking about there home being destroyed.
And if the reporter has been brought to that Palestinian by official sources?Now, someone from Sderot, who had there homes wrecked by a rockets, would be equivalent to the Palestinian, in your example.
Yup. Its promoting a message to the world that the repective government wants to tell.
Look. If reporters had free reign to report everything and anything in both countries with the interference of the respective authorities (formal & informal) then I wouldn't consider it propaganda. But this is a warzone and reporters tend to be brought or guided to stories.. Neither Hamas nor the Israeli's want the reporters to be telling stories about their own mistakes/bad decisions.Are you being serious? Compare the GDP between the Palestinians and Israelis and I think you will see a huge different between the 2. Firstly there is a clear difference in the amount of money each has avaliable in general. As for Israel economy, there actually doing quite well:
Israel's economy outperforms
They have plenty of money and billions from the US as well. So your suggestion that there economy is not doing so well is a stretch. Sure, right now there in reccession like everyone else, but before the global crisis, they were doing very well for themselves as you can see from the above link.
And you're totally ignoring the costs involved in running a country, nevermind a military constantly at war.No, simple put, because no one here has actually said that.
So its fair to read between the lines with my posts but not on the ones complaining about Israel...? right.The individual who had there home destroyed is hardly thinking about propoganda, probably pissed of there home has been destroyed. I think people are smart enough to realize, this person is going to be annoyed about this.
Sure. But again Hamas will show the world the image of Palestine it wants to show. It won't encourage reporters to interview reports of corruption, beatings, and internal killings. How open do you see on TV reports of a person who's son has been taken by a paramilitary group to fight? And don't tell me you don't think this happens...There is a world of difference between having an Israeli spokes person in the studio and some poor guy who just lost there home. There is no parity between the 2.
Is there any difference between a spokesperson from Hamas and a spokesperson from the Israeli government?The resources do matter. Being able to send people to send a consistent message accross the several channles is not the same as reporters interviewing Palestinians.
The true problem is not that they don't have the same resources as the Israeli's. The problem is that there is no clear and distinct representation of the Palestinians. Hamas is too... unreliable as leadership. Their actions make them a bad representation of the palestinian people, so they're rarely used as spokespeople. The palestinian government does release statements just as Israel does, but it isn't seen as being solid enough.
The root of the problem is that in Israel there is one entity that releases information in behalf of the Israeli people, and therefore they can promote themselves in a better way.How exactly? When, Channel 4 were reporting on the conflict, they told us they were able to go where they wanted etc. The media is more than capable of telling us, that they had handlers etc.
You don't believe that leading reporters to a particular scene is a form of propaganda? Its no different to Israel restricting reporters to certain areas.. Where they can only report what israel wants them to report.Still, I never said the Palestinians don't do propogands, just that they can't match Israels resources.
Look. Regarding this whole resource thing. From a pure monetary value, i agree that Palestinians cant match them. But they have backing from money other sources. Propaganda is about getting a particular message out there. Palestinians have a massive following of support spread across the world. Thousands of people regularly post to boards and such crying out against the actions of Israel, which in turn promotes palestine in a certain light. Most supporters while acknowledging the actions of Hamas, dismiss them almost immediately.
The fact is the matter that this is about information, and getting people to feel sympathy for a people. Palestinians are far ahead of Israel on this, and thats an indication that their propaganda machine is far more capable than you wish to acknowledge.How many people actually do that? Do you really think the average person is that bothered half the time.
Yes, I do. How many websites are on the internet that are not owned and run by companies? A million? ten million? more? The simple fact is that if people have an interest they will design and maintain a website. Do a search for something silly, and you'll find someone with a website about it.Lots of biased web sites, sure they exist. Do people visit them? Whats there memberships like? What technology do they use?
Memberships? You mean hits & visits, i take it? I don't know. I don't have a site about this subject.Lets take a look at one such Israeli site:
http://giyus.org/
Now as you can see from the site, they have some nice handy software to alert people to any negative articles about Israeli. You see these guys have the resources to make this software, which is really helpful to there cause.
Now lets look at a Palestinian one:
http://electronicintifada.net/
Now its a nice web site, well designed etc, but it doesn't have the handy software that tells you about negative storys about Palestine, right to your desktop. So boths sides are propoganda, but one seems to have more resources and can use this to greater effect to get there message accross.
So what? They both get their own message across... The levelk of technology used on a site doesn't really matter so much. The layout of both website are decent, and get their messages across. If anything the one with less features is better since not everyone is on a decent broadband connection, and the one with less features is accessible to more people.
The only thing that would sway me to think different would be if you managed to get a hand of the traffic statistics. Somehow I expect the Palestinian website receives more traffic.0 -
Ah ,the latest bogeyman that Israel is using to keep the billions in welfare money coming into her coffers. The scare mongering over Iran is ridiculous. This country hasn't preemptively attacked anyone for 300 years and has managed to advance itself despite sanctions (Israeli led) .
Yes, they're using Iran to keep US aid flowing into their country. But, and there is a but. Iran has been playing politics in the region for decades, and has made no attempt to avoid helping the enemies of Israel. Through funding, training, and supply of weapons Iran has helped create and maintain many of the paramilitary organisations that continue to attack Israel, and thus keep the region unstable. Its in Iran's best interests to keep the region unstable, and the attitudes of the region against western nations.Israel should really sort out her own considerable problems at home, move from a theocracy to a true democracy, and stop trying to drag the US and the rest of the world into another pointless war. The Israeli intelligence that says that Iran is a threat is the same intelligence that fed the US and the UK the Great Iraqui Weapons of Mass Destruction Lie. I rest my case.
The Iraqi WMD lie came from as much US "intelligence" as anywhere else. The US wanted a war, and they looked for any reason to create one. And when they didn't find them, they created reasons. Bush was going to go in Iraq regardless of what anyone said, and he did.
Iran is a threat to Israel, simply because they chose to be. I don't believe that iran is a threat to the rest of the world.... yet. But they might have been pushed that way if another Bush minded person got into power. I'm hoping Obama can bring some stability to that.
As for Democracy in Israel... I doubt it'll happen.0 -
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Manic Moran wrote: »Well, this didn't take much Googling.
NTM
When it becomes the rule, rather than the exception, I'll be impressed.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I would say that a number of them do have dedicated desires to put out their own view of how things happened as opposed to what the Israeli's feel. The Arab invasions following the creation of Israel/Palestine by the UN would be a good point of reference. Just as many Israeli sites blur the truth and sometimes outright change history to support their cause so too do many arab sites across the net. Somehow I doubt they're all independent of the Arab governments desires...
I am sure if Arab governments run the site directly, then they will put out there version of events. Of course how many are actually run by them is another matter.Deleted User wrote: »I know they do.. but they also deal in the accounts of witnesses. I'm not suggesting they're not reporting accurate information in the abuses made by both Israel and Palestinians. I'm saying that they often have to gain information from other sources than their own people.
Sure, there will be errors by these organizations, but there not propaganda and Human Rights groups and the media, tend to correct things, when mistakes are made.Deleted User wrote: »And yet, there were loads of reports about the Israeli attacks, the manner of the attacks, and the accusations of testing weapons on the Palestinian population, along with video's showing some of the tests. The media got in there and reported what was happening. Maybe not loads of them, but more than a few were able to get in to report.
Isn't it the job of the media to report what they find? The Israel/Palestine conflict is big flash point and there was plenty of coverage of Sderot as well in the media at the same time. The level of coverage was not much different to the Russia/Geogia conflict.Deleted User wrote: »It would have been in the Palestinians interests to show reporters the damage done by Israel, both in lives and in destruction of the infrastructure. It would also eb in their interests to present the human side of war, and show how war affects individuals and their families. Just as Israel guides reporters to where they can find these stories to support their cause, so too do the Palestinians.
Again, all this stuff reported by the media is sorta what there suppose to do. Should they ignore all the damage and dead on both sides? The media are just doing there job, plenty of coverage of Sderot on Sky for instance and plenty on Gaza as well.Deleted User wrote: »And if the reporter has been brought to that Palestinian by official sources?
Sure then you could make that accusation.Deleted User wrote: »Yup. Its promoting a message to the world that the repective government wants to tell.
No actually they wouldn't unless the government involved, actually told them what to say.Deleted User wrote: »Look. If reporters had free reign to report everything and anything in both countries with the interference of the respective authorities (formal & informal) then I wouldn't consider it propaganda. But this is a warzone and reporters tend to be brought or guided to stories.. Neither Hamas nor the Israeli's want the reporters to be telling stories about their own mistakes/bad decisions.
Again, when I was watching Channel 4, they made it very clear they were able to go around Gaza freely without Hamas interference. I see no reason why I should not trust them.Deleted User wrote: »And you're totally ignoring the costs involved in running a country, nevermind a military constantly at war.
It shows there in far far better shape than the Palestinians. The state of the Palestinians is something you ignore. They are in no shape to match Israel. Also, propaganda would factor into war costs.Deleted User wrote: »So its fair to read between the lines with my posts but not on the ones complaining about Israel...? right.
Reading between the lines doesn't mean much either way imho.Deleted User wrote: »Sure. But again Hamas will show the world the image of Palestine it wants to show. It won't encourage reporters to interview reports of corruption, beatings, and internal killings. How open do you see on TV reports of a person who's son has been taken by a paramilitary group to fight? And don't tell me you don't think this happens...
I hear plenty of reports about the stuff Hamas does, in the media.
Also, of course Hamas have there own propaganda. They just don't have the same resources to get there message out there, as the Israeli's. You know what with there movement being limited and what not.Deleted User wrote: »Is there any difference between a spokesperson from Hamas and a spokesperson from the Israeli government?
The only difference is that I see way more Israeli spokes people on my TV.Deleted User wrote: »The true problem is not that they don't have the same resources as the Israeli's. The problem is that there is no clear and distinct representation of the Palestinians. Hamas is too... unreliable as leadership. Their actions make them a bad representation of the palestinian people, so they're rarely used as spokespeople. The palestinian government does release statements just as Israel does, but it isn't seen as being solid enough.
There are 2 governments for the Palestinians right now. Neither manages to get spokes people on TV like Israel, as neither has the capability to do so.Deleted User wrote: »The root of the problem is that in Israel there is one entity that releases information in behalf of the Israeli people, and therefore they can promote themselves in a better way.
It costs money to send people to media outlets the world over. If the PLO could manage that, they sure as hell would do so, but they have never managed to do it, even when they were the sole representative.Deleted User wrote: »You don't believe that leading reporters to a particular scene is a form of propaganda? Its no different to Israel restricting reporters to certain areas.. Where they can only report what israel wants them to report.
Again, in my Channel 4 example, they were not being lead around by Hamas, in fact they said no Hamas people were in the vicinity and they could wander around as they pleased.
Also, if the media is being lead around, that is a different case.Deleted User wrote: »Look. Regarding this whole resource thing. From a pure monetary value, i agree that Palestinians cant match them. But they have backing from money other sources. Propaganda is about getting a particular message out there. Palestinians have a massive following of support spread across the world. Thousands of people regularly post to boards and such crying out against the actions of Israel, which in turn promotes palestine in a certain light. Most supporters while acknowledging the actions of Hamas, dismiss them almost immediately.
Again, people posting there own opinions are not necessarily propaganda. Also, Israel has plenty of supporters too, who pretty much dismiss what Israel does with minimum acknowledgment and in some cases try to justify them. They have everything the Palestinians have and the Israel government has a lot of money to get there message across to the media and world governments, which gives them superior ability to put out propaganda. There is no way you can dismiss one sides superior resources, we are not talking about 2 sides, that have any sort of parity between them, one is clearly weaker.Deleted User wrote: »The fact is the matter that this is about information, and getting people to feel sympathy for a people. Palestinians are far ahead of Israel on this, and thats an indication that their propaganda machine is far more capable than you wish to acknowledge.
Its an indication of the Palestinians being an occupied people and not a superior propaganda machine.Deleted User wrote: »Yes, I do. How many websites are on the internet that are not owned and run by companies? A million? ten million? more? The simple fact is that if people have an interest they will design and maintain a website. Do a search for something silly, and you'll find someone with a website about it.
Memberships? You mean hits & visits, i take it? I don't know. I don't have a site about this subject.
Then we don't know how effective they are then.Deleted User wrote: »So what? They both get their own message across... The levelk of technology used on a site doesn't really matter so much. The layout of both website are decent, and get their messages across. If anything the one with less features is better since not everyone is on a decent broadband connection, and the one with less features is accessible to more people.
The only thing that would sway me to think different would be if you managed to get a hand of the traffic statistics. Somehow I expect the Palestinian website receives more traffic.
I can't really get my hands on there traffic, but I will disagree with you on the technology. Having superior technology is a huge advantage in getting your message out there.0 -
BlaasForRafa wrote: »If the idf had WANTED to kill that guy they could have shot him. Obviously they were trying to disperse the crowd and he got unlucky, its a tough break for him.
However one could observe that if he wasn't poking his do-gooder nose into other peoples affairs then he'd still be alive.
Perhaps Israel should stop colonizing Palestinian land. They are the aggressors here, who are firing on peaceful protesters.0 -
I am sure if Arab governments run the site directly, then they will put out there version of events. Of course how many are actually run by them is another matter.
If you do a search for Palestine on google, how many of the websites which come up are made by Palestinians...? You don't know. Neither do I. But the content of the websites show the attitude of the developers...Sure, there will be errors by these organizations, but there not propaganda and Human Rights groups and the media, tend to correct things, when mistakes are made.
But they have to sift through the propaganda they receive from both Israeli and Palestinian sources... and mistakes happen. Assumptions are made.Again, all this stuff reported by the media is sorta what there suppose to do. Should they ignore all the damage and dead on both sides? The media are just doing there job, plenty of coverage of Sderot on Sky for instance and plenty on Gaza as well.
Exactly. So the Palestinians are receiving a lot of media coverage? The original point I responded to suggested that they weren't...Sure then you could make that accusation.
Accusation? I asked a question.No actually they wouldn't unless the government involved, actually told them what to say.
And if Hamas told them what to say? or another paramilitary group?Again, when I was watching Channel 4, they made it very clear they were able to go around Gaza freely without Hamas interference. I see no reason why I should not trust them.
Fair enough... would you feel that happens all the time?It shows there in far far better shape than the Palestinians. The state of the Palestinians is something you ignore. They are in no shape to match Israel. Also, propaganda would factor into war costs.
I can't see where I ignored the state of Palestinians... You're the one that suggests that they haven't received the same level of attention from the media as the Israeli's, and because of their resources they can't compete with Israel on a propaganda level.
Whereas I'm saying that the very condition of Palestine ensures that they receive more attention, and can promote their message. They don't have to throw out their message to the media in different countries, because all the media comes to them for news.The only difference is that I see way more Israeli spokes people on my TV.
Do you believe that hamas members always declare themselves as members of the organisation before they make a report to the media?There are 2 governments for the Palestinians right now. Neither manages to get spokes people on TV like Israel, as neither has the capability to do so.
Why? And don't tell me about resources... I'd like some actual details.It costs money to send people to media outlets the world over. If the PLO could manage that, they sure as hell would do so, but they have never managed to do it, even when they were the sole representative.
Hamas & the PLO have members & supporters in every country in the world. Do you disagree?Again, people posting there own opinions are not necessarily propaganda.
no? even when they're promoting the party line?Also, Israel has plenty of supporters too, who pretty much dismiss what Israel does with minimum acknowledgment and in some cases try to justify them. They have everything the Palestinians have and the Israel government has a lot of money to get there message across to the media and world governments, which gives them superior ability to put out propaganda. There is no way you can dismiss one sides superior resources, we are not talking about 2 sides, that have any sort of parity between them, one is clearly weaker.
Do you agree that Palestine has world sympathy? That there are many people across the world that publicly demonstrate against the actions of Israel, and boycott Israeli goods?
Now how many marches or demonstrations have there been decrying against the actions of Hamas or other paramilitary groups in the last 5 years?
Do you agree that these marches, protests, and public demonstrations against Israel garner media attention?
Also do you believe that the people who attend these marches restrict themselves to just marches, and don't participate in other forms of protestations like blogs, or websites?
How many peace demonstrators got to Palestine to block Palestinian attacks on Israel?
Now, consider your answers above, and tell me that they aren't resources that Palestine can't avail itself of, and in many cases is worth more than any monetary value...Its an indication of the Palestinians being an occupied people and not a superior propaganda machine.
There are plenty of occupied countries in the world. Why do Palestinians receive more attention than them?I can't really get my hands on there traffic, but I will disagree with you on the technology. Having superior technology is a huge advantage in getting your message out there.
Thirty years ago, before the introduction of the Internet, and mass communication I'd agree with you. Now? Not a chance. You don't need money that much anymore. You need people willing to put in the work, and the Palestinian support movement has plenty of those.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »If you do a search for Palestine on google, how many of the websites which come up are made by Palestinians...? You don't know. Neither do I. But the content of the websites show the attitude of the developers...
Sure it does, but it doesn't make them propaganda. There has to be an intent to mislead people for that to be the case.Deleted User wrote: »But they have to sift through the propaganda they receive from both Israeli and Palestinian sources... and mistakes happen. Assumptions are made.
Yes, mistake are made, but they tend to be found very quickly.Deleted User wrote: »Exactly. So the Palestinians are receiving a lot of media coverage? The original point I responded to suggested that they weren't...
The conflict receives plenty of media coverage, but we do not see the same amount of Palestinian spokes people on the news.Deleted User wrote: »Accusation? I asked a question.
Fair enough.Deleted User wrote: »And if Hamas told them what to say? or another paramilitary group?
I some how doubt any media organization would do so. They would show a Hamas statement (as they would an Israeli one), but they would not report it as there own.Deleted User wrote: »Fair enough... would you feel that happens all the time?
I wouldn't know to be honest either way. I trust the media has some professionalism to state if they are being lead around by handlers or are embedded. Still, you would need to prove that the media is engaged in propaganda, which you can't.Deleted User wrote: »I can't see where I ignored the state of Palestinians... You're the one that suggests that they haven't received the same level of attention from the media as the Israeli's, and because of their resources they can't compete with Israel on a propaganda level.
No, I never said they don't receive media attention, just that they can't compete with Israels propaganda. You have ignored the simple fact that the Palestinians are in no position to engage in propaganda to the same level as Israel. The people of Gaza, would be more worried about where there next meal is coming from.Deleted User wrote: »Whereas I'm saying that the very condition of Palestine ensures that they receive more attention, and can promote their message. They don't have to throw out their message to the media in different countries, because all the media comes to them for news.
The media goes there to report on the situation, just like any other conflict. The media reports are not propaganda, just because they interview Palestinians and report whats going on. For it to be propaganda, there needs to be an intention to mislead, which you have yet to prove.Deleted User wrote: »Do you believe that hamas members always declare themselves as members of the organisation before they make a report to the media?
Yeah, actually I say they would often do so. Terrorist organizations love media attention and tend not to be too shy about talking up there cause.
Of course, can you prove that this happens a lot? If it does, does the media outlet not then pull the misleading information?Deleted User wrote: »Why? And don't tell me about resources... I'd like some actual details.
Record donor pledges to Palestinians raise questions
Firstly the Palestinians are hugely dependent on outside help with strings attached and thats if the money promised is ever actually given, and if it is given, it often is stolen by corrupt officials, and that if Israel allows the aid to reach them at all.
Its pretty much well known, that the Palestinians have no where near the resources Israel have for pretty much everything. Just look at Gaza for instance.
As for why they can't get people on TV, its sort of hard, when you can't leave. Its pretty well known Palestinians movements are hugely limited.Deleted User wrote: »Hamas & the PLO have members & supporters in every country in the world. Do you disagree?
I don't know the details about there membership. Do you have such details?
Also, I am sure there are supporters for Palestine the world over. Of course, I am sure you can prove that they are engaged in propaganda?Deleted User wrote: »no? even when they're promoting the party line?
If they intend to mislead, they would be engaging in propaganda. However, you can't prove all these people are doing so, just that they are posting about it.Deleted User wrote: »Do you agree that Palestine has world sympathy? That there are many people across the world that publicly demonstrate against the actions of Israel, and boycott Israeli goods?
Which means nothing, unless you can link this as a direct result of propaganda. Could just as easily be people having sympathy for an occupied people.Deleted User wrote: »Now how many marches or demonstrations have there been decrying against the actions of Hamas or other paramilitary groups in the last 5 years?
Not a clue, but there pro-Israel demonstrations as well and I am sure they condemn them.Deleted User wrote: »Do you agree that these marches, protests, and public demonstrations against Israel garner media attention?
So? Doesn't make them propaganda.Deleted User wrote: »Also do you believe that the people who attend these marches restrict themselves to just marches, and don't participate in other forms of protestations like blogs, or websites?
So? Again, doesn't make them propaganda.Deleted User wrote: »How many peace demonstrators got to Palestine to block Palestinian attacks on Israel?
That ridiculous. How can they possibly stop terrorists attacks. They can hardly predict them.
Now Israeli house demolitions tend to be known about in advance, so its far easier to block those, or you know the building of a wall.Deleted User wrote: »Now, consider your answers above, and tell me that they aren't resources that Palestine can't avail itself of, and in many cases is worth more than any monetary value...
Again, you seem to think Israel has 0 support, but they have plenty. Just look at this board for instance, or you know a group like AIPAC.
When, the Palestinians receive billions in purely military aid from the US government and are protected in the UN by them, then I will believe they have a superior propaganda machine.Deleted User wrote: »There are plenty of occupied countries in the world. Why do Palestinians receive more attention than them?
The conflict is located in an important region and it also involved the US, which guarantees media attention and it also has Jerusalem involved as well. A city important to 2 major religions, Christianity with something like 2 billion adherents and Islam with something like 1.5 billion adherents, which together equals at least half the worlds population.Deleted User wrote: »Thirty years ago, before the introduction of the Internet, and mass communication I'd agree with you. Now? Not a chance. You don't need money that much anymore. You need people willing to put in the work, and the Palestinian support movement has plenty of those.
So? Again, this doesn't equal propaganda. Can you prove links between these people and the PLO and Hamas? Can you prove they set out to mislead people?0 -
Sure it does, but it doesn't make them propaganda. There has to be an intent to mislead people for that to be the case.
And the absence of real information is another form of propaganda. When they only show one aspect of information, which promotes a certain viewpoint shared by a organisation or nation.Yes, mistake are made, but they tend to be found very quickly.
But they happen, and much of those mistakes come from the sources of information used.The conflict receives plenty of media coverage, but we do not see the same amount of Palestinian spokes people on the news.
Fine, but the media shows the Palestinian situation adequately?I some how doubt any media organization would do so. They would show a Hamas statement (as they would an Israeli one), but they would not report it as there own.
Thats not answering what I asked.I wouldn't know to be honest either way. I trust the media has some professionalism to state if they are being lead around by handlers or are embedded. Still, you would need to prove that the media is engaged in propaganda, which you can't.
And you can't prove that they haven't been affected by propaganda... Seems we're deadlocked there.No, I never said they don't receive media attention, just that they can't compete with Israels propaganda. You have ignored the simple fact that the Palestinians are in no position to engage in propaganda to the same level as Israel. The people of Gaza, would be more worried about where there next meal is coming from.
But you consider any form of resource not including financial as being irrelevent? the simple fact is that Palestine receives so much more positive attention from the media and world attention, than Israel, and that is an incredibly important resource. Far outweighing the funding that Israel can put into having spokespersons on foreign news channels.The media goes there to report on the situation, just like any other conflict. The media reports are not propaganda, just because they interview Palestinians and report whats going on. For it to be propaganda, there needs to be an intention to mislead, which you have yet to prove.
No. Propaganda is the deliberate intention to get a certain message across. Its not about lying to people. There is a tendency to mislead people, and to avoid showing other truths.Yeah, actually I say they would often do so. Terrorist organizations love media attention and tend not to be too shy about talking up there cause.
Of course, can you prove that this happens a lot? If it does, does the media outlet not then pull the misleading information?
Actually I was asking your opinion rather than stating that this was common. Personally, I think it does happen when Hamas or another group which to lead the Media towards certain conclusions or reports. Do I have evidence of this? Nope, but i figure its a fairly obvious ploy to use.As for why they can't get people on TV, its sort of hard, when you can't leave. Its pretty well known Palestinians movements are hugely limited.
But there are plenty of Palestinians living outside of Palestine, and also the media for the most part comes to Palestine itself removing the need for them to go outside. I can't see why you believe that Israel having the ability to send spokespersons outside the country is so important.I don't know the details about there membership. Do you have such details?
Do i really need to find details of memberships? Can't you agree that they would have supporters outside the country?Also, I am sure there are supporters for Palestine the world over. Of course, I am sure you can prove that they are engaged in propaganda?
What do you believe propaganda is?If they intend to mislead, they would be engaging in propaganda. However, you can't prove all these people are doing so, just that they are posting about it.
They are promoting a particular message to the world. i.e. that Palestinians are completely victims, and are totally innocent.. They don't seek to show Palestinian wrongs in the same manner as that of the Israeli.. That in itself if propaganda.Which means nothing, unless you can link this as a direct result of propaganda. Could just as easily be people having sympathy for an occupied people.
Not a clue, but there pro-Israel demonstrations as well and I am sure they condemn them.
So? Doesn't make them propaganda.
So? Again, doesn't make them propaganda.
You're missing the point. You brought up the lack of resources, and the 'public sympathy & support that Palestinian's receive is a resource in itself. One that you seem to want to dismiss. I don't know why you do though.That ridiculous. How can they possibly stop terrorists attacks. They can hardly predict them.
I'm not asking for them to stop the paramilitary attacks. I'm pointing out the lack of demonstrations and peace protests about the attacks on Israel. It shows much of the support that palestinians receive.Again, you seem to think Israel has 0 support, but they have plenty. Just look at this board for instance, or you know a group like AIPAC.
Why do you suggest that I think Israel has 0 support? I don't believe that, nor do i think I've suggested it. I have said that Palestine receives more support in the form of demonstrations and protests. And I'm not criticizing that. It quite reasonable given Israeli actions throughout this conflict.
But again, I'm pointing out that the Palestinian movement has a resource through these people to get their message out there.When, the Palestinians receive billions in purely military aid from the US government and are protected in the UN by them, then I will believe they have a superior propaganda machine.
Why? I look at the results, and the level of sympathy worldwide. I look at the lack of true protest against Palestinian actions/inaction, and would judge that the Palestinian propaganda machine has done quite well.So? Again, this doesn't equal propaganda. Can you prove links between these people and the PLO and Hamas? Can you prove they set out to mislead people?
Why do I have to? the point is that the message is being put out there, and other people are supporting it. It doesn't matter if they are associated with Hamas/PLO or not. They're promoting the same message.
Lets get back to the original response. You claimed that Palestine hadn't the resources that Israel had to run a propaganda machine. I disagreed because I believe that Palestinians can draw upon the support of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide who are willing to pass on their message. Palestine does lack the monetary resources of Israel, but they make up for it because the Media comes to them directly for information. Overall, I see it balancing out.
Israel loses out because they have no real justification for the methods they use to defend themselves, nor can they justify their ousting of Palestinians from their lands. The Israeli message doesn't hold up to close inspection, whereas the Palestinian message does because for the most part they keep closer to the truth. The few infractions that Hamas does, doesn't sway the whole message from its course.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »And the absence of real information is another form of propaganda. When they only show one aspect of information, which promotes a certain viewpoint shared by a organisation or nation.
Stating your own view is not propoganda, once again you have to intend to mislead them in some way.Deleted User wrote: »But they happen, and much of those mistakes come from the sources of information used.
True enough, but mistakes are not the same as propoganda.Deleted User wrote: »Fine, but the media shows the Palestinian situation adequately?
Well, they certainly try to, but there tend to be a lot of obstacles in there way. I am sure the media would bring on a Palestinian spoke person if they were one avaliable.Deleted User wrote: »Thats not answering what I asked.
I taught my answer was valid.Deleted User wrote: »And you can't prove that they haven't been affected by propaganda... Seems we're deadlocked there.
Well, no you are saying they are affected by propoganda and the media would deny this. Its up to you to prove that they have been and not me to prove otherwise.Deleted User wrote: »But you consider any form of resource not including financial as being irrelevent? the simple fact is that Palestine receives so much more positive attention from the media and world attention, than Israel, and that is an incredibly important resource. Far outweighing the funding that Israel can put into having spokespersons on foreign news channels.
There are plenty of pro-Israeli articles out there. Plenty of positive coverage for them as well. You are of the opinion that the Palestinians recieve a overwhelming positive media attention, I would disagree, as they recieve quite a lot of bad press as well and Israel does not universally recieve bad press either.Deleted User wrote: »No. Propaganda is the deliberate intention to get a certain message across. Its not about lying to people. There is a tendency to mislead people, and to avoid showing other truths.
Great, and yet you can't prove this and the media would deny being used a propoganda tool. You have yet to provide any evidence that the majority of media coverage is propoganda. By your standards, pretty much everything would be propoganda from what I can see.Deleted User wrote: »Actually I was asking your opinion rather than stating that this was common. Personally, I think it does happen when Hamas or another group which to lead the Media towards certain conclusions or reports. Do I have evidence of this? Nope, but i figure its a fairly obvious ploy to use.
I would doubt it happens, and if it does, the media would state that they were brought there by a official or who ever else.Deleted User wrote: »But there are plenty of Palestinians living outside of Palestine, and also the media for the most part comes to Palestine itself removing the need for them to go outside. I can't see why you believe that Israel having the ability to send spokespersons outside the country is so important.
It create a consistent message accross several media outlets. I think this is very important, as they can have some one on hand to counter any criticism in a consistent manner.Deleted User wrote: »Do i really need to find details of memberships? Can't you agree that they would have supporters outside the country?
I know they have supporters outside the country, but I have no clue if they are in every country, or what there number are.Deleted User wrote: »What do you believe propaganda is?From http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Propoganda
propaganda
Systematic spreading (propagation) of information or disinformation (misleading information), usually to promote a religious or political doctrine with the intention of instilling particular attitudes or responses. As a system of spreading information it was considered a legitimate instrument of government, but became notorious through the deliberate distortion of facts or the publication of falsehoods by totalitarian regimes, notably Nazi Germany.
The above would sum up my opinion. So firstly the media would not be considered propogandists, unless you can prove they are promoting the Palestinians or Israeli views. I see plenty of coverage on any attack on Israel by a Palestinian terrorists and plenty of coverage of Gaza when it is possible.
Now for marches etc, they could be propoganda as per the above defintion.Deleted User wrote: »They are promoting a particular message to the world. i.e. that Palestinians are completely victims, and are totally innocent.. They don't seek to show Palestinian wrongs in the same manner as that of the Israeli.. That in itself if propaganda.
All of them do?Deleted User wrote: »You're missing the point. You brought up the lack of resources, and the 'public sympathy & support that Palestinian's receive is a resource in itself. One that you seem to want to dismiss. I don't know why you do though.
I simply don't see that resources, as being all the great as it has not resulted in any change for the Palestinians. Ask yourself one simple question, have they been successful in changing anything? So they are hardly worth much.Deleted User wrote: »I'm not asking for them to stop the paramilitary attacks. I'm pointing out the lack of demonstrations and peace protests about the attacks on Israel. It shows much of the support that palestinians receive.
The protests are all well and good, but does it actually achieve anything?Deleted User wrote: »Why do you suggest that I think Israel has 0 support? I don't believe that, nor do i think I've suggested it. I have said that Palestine receives more support in the form of demonstrations and protests. And I'm not criticizing that. It quite reasonable given Israeli actions throughout this conflict.
My point is simple, Israel has plenty of support as well. There support actually achieves something, in that they are still able to do as they pleace to the Palestinians.Deleted User wrote: »But again, I'm pointing out that the Palestinian movement has a resource through these people to get their message out there.
They are resource, but not great ones, as they don't actually effect any postive change towards the Palestinians.Deleted User wrote: »Why? I look at the results, and the level of sympathy worldwide. I look at the lack of true protest against Palestinian actions/inaction, and would judge that the Palestinian propaganda machine has done quite well.
Or perhaps people look at the numbers killed by the occupying power and see the occupation as they cause of the violence?
Again, the support you see doesn't translate into anything tangible. The Palestinians are still occupied and Israel can still do as it pleases. Seems to me the protesters etc aren't very successful in effecting any change.Deleted User wrote: »Why do I have to? the point is that the message is being put out there, and other people are supporting it. It doesn't matter if they are associated with Hamas/PLO or not. They're promoting the same message.
Are they? The PLO and Hamas, both have different messages on there own.Deleted User wrote: »Lets get back to the original response. You claimed that Palestine hadn't the resources that Israel had to run a propaganda machine. I disagreed because I believe that Palestinians can draw upon the support of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide who are willing to pass on their message. Palestine does lack the monetary resources of Israel, but they make up for it because the Media comes to them directly for information. Overall, I see it balancing out.
I would disagree, having access to all the resources the Palestinians have and not to mention more money, it seems clear to me Israel have more resources.Deleted User wrote: »Israel loses out because they have no real justification for the methods they use to defend themselves, nor can they justify their ousting of Palestinians from their lands. The Israeli message doesn't hold up to close inspection, whereas the Palestinian message does because for the most part they keep closer to the truth. The few infractions that Hamas does, doesn't sway the whole message from its course.
Yeah, that would be about right.0 -
Statement from the family of Rachel Corrie
March 16, 2009
We thank all who continue to remember Rachel and those who, on this sixth anniversary of her stand in Gaza, renew their own commitments to human rights, justice and peace in the Middle East. The tributes and actions in her memory are a source of inspiration to us and to others.
Friday, March 13th, we learned of the tragic injury to American activist Tristan Anderson. Tristan was shot in the head with a tear-gas canister in Ni’lin Village in the West Bank when Israeli forces attacked a demonstration opposing the construction of the annexation wall through the village’s land. On the same day, a Ni’lin resident was, also, shot in the leg with live ammunition.
Four residents of Ni’lin have been killed in the past eight months as villagers and their supporters have courageously demonstrated against the Apartheid Wall deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice—a wall that will ultimately absorb one-quarter of the village’s remaining land. Those who have died are a ten-year-old child Ahmed Mousa, shot in the forehead with live ammunition on July 29, 2008; Yousef Amira (17) shot with rubber-coated steel bullets on July 30, 2008; Arafat Rateb Khawaje (22) and Mohammed Khawaje (20), both shot and killed with live ammunition on December 28, 2008. On this anniversary, Rachel would want us all to hold Tristan Anderson and his family and these Palestinians and their families in our thoughts and prayers, and we ask everyone to do so.
We are writing this message from Cairo where we returned after a visit to Gaza with the Code Pink Delegation from the United States. Fifty-eight women and men successfully passed through Rafah Crossing on Saturday, March 7th to challenge the border closures and siege and to celebrate International Women’s Day with the strong and courageous women of Gaza. Rachel would be very happy that our spirited delegation made this journey.
North to south throughout the Strip, we witnessed the sweeping destruction of neighbourhoods, municipal buildings, police stations, mosques, and schools –casualties of the Israeli military assaults in December and January. When we asked about the personal impact of the attacks on those we met, we heard repeatedly of the loss of mothers, fathers, children, cousins, and friends. The Palestinian Center for Human Rights reports 1434 Palestinian dead and over 5000 injured, among them 288 children and 121 women.
We walked through the farming village of Khoza in the South where fifty homes were destroyed during the land invasion. A young boy scrambled through a hole in the rubble to show us the basement he and his family crouched in as a bulldozer crushed their house upon them. We heard of Rafiya who lead the frightened women and children of this neighbourhood away from threatening Israeli military bulldozers, only to be struck down and killed by an Israeli soldier’s sniper fire as she walked in the street carrying her white flag.
Repeatedly, we were told by Palestinians, and by the internationals on the ground supporting them, that there is no ceasefire. Indeed, bomb blasts from the border area punctuated our conversations as we arrived and departed Gaza. On our last night, we sat by a fire in the moonlight in the remains of a friend’s farmyard and listened to him tell of how the Israeli military destroyed his home in 2004, and of how this second home was shattered on February 6th. This time, it was Israeli rockets from Apache helicopters that struck the house, A stand of wheat remained and rustled soothingly in the breeze as we talked, but our attention shifted quickly when F-16s streaked high across the night sky. and our friend explained that if the planes tipped to the side, they would strike.
Everywhere, the psychological costs of the recent and ongoing attacks for all Gazans, but especially for the children, were sadly apparent. It is not only those who suffer the greatest losses that carry the scars of all that has happened. It is those, too, who witnessed from their school bodies flying in the air when police cadets were bombed across the street and those who felt and heard the terrifying blasts of missiles falling near their own homes. It is the children who each day must walk past the unexplainable and inhumane destruction that has occurred.
In Rachel’s case, though a thorough, credible and transparent investigation was promised by the Israeli Government, after six years, the position of the U.S. Government remains that such an investigation has not taken place. In March 2008, Michele Bernier-Toff, Managing Director of the Office of Overseas Citizen Services at the Department of State wrote, “We have consistently requested that the Government of Israel conduct a full and transparent investigation into Rachel’s death. Our requests have gone unanswered or ignored.”
Now, the attacks on all the people of Gaza and the recent one on Tristan Anderson in Ni’lin cry out for investigation and accountability. We call on President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton, and members of Congress to act with fortitude and courage to ensure that the atrocities that have occurred are addressed by the Israeli Government and through relevant international and U.S. law. We ask them to act immediately and persistently to stop the impunity enjoyed by the Israeli military, not to encourage it.
Despite the pain, we have once again felt privileged to enter briefly into the lives of Rachel’s Palestinian friends in Gaza. We are moved by their resilience and heartened by their song, dance, and laughter amidst the tears. Rachel wrote in 2003, “I am nevertheless amazed at their strength in being able to defend such a large degree of their humanity–laughter, generosity, family time—against the incredible horror occurring in their lives…..I am also discovering a degree of strength and of the basic ability for humans to remain human in the direst of circumstances…I think the word is dignity.”
On this sixth anniversary of Rachel’s killing, we echo her sentiments.
Sincerely,
Cindy and Craig Corrie
On behalf of our family
March 16, 20090 -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/19/israeli-troops-gaza-shootings-civiliansA second squad leader, from the same brigade, described how a company commander ordered troops to shoot an elderly Palestinian woman who was walking on a road about 100 metres from a house the soldiers had taken over. He said he argued with his commander about the rules of engagement, particularly the way they shot without warning to clear houses.
Ha'aretz reported: "After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that 'We should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist.'"
The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: to understand how much the IDF [Israel Defence Forces] has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."
As ever, the truth will out, though slowly.....0 -
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Whats that to do with anything in the last two posts?0 -
Whats that to do with anything in the last two posts?
The usual deflection technique I think :rolleyes:
I've just been reading the article you posted Nodin. At least some seem to have a conscience. The IDF are investigating !!! How many months after the Human Rights groups and observers first brought up the fact that war crimes were being committed in Gaza ?? Nothing will happen and the "investigation" will be a whitewash as usual.
The stupidity and aggravation goes on. As one of the reader's posted "the German police stood and watched in November 1938 as well (night of 9th./10th. to be precise)" Kristallnacht.
Police allows far-rightists to march in Israeli Arab town on Tuesday
Israel Police on Thursday notified far-rightists Baruch Marzel and Itamar Ben-Gvir that they will be permitted to march through Israeli Arab town of Umm al-Fahm next Tuesday, with thousands of police officers securing the march.
The High Court of Justice ruled two months ago that the march could go ahead within a month and a half of Israel's parliamentary elections, which took place on February 10.
The ruling came after extremists Marzel and Ben-Gvir petitioned the court last December when police decided to delay the demonstration until further notice.
The State Prosecutor's Office argued that the march needed to be deferred until after the election because of the hostilities in Gaza and the deteriorating security situation in Israel.
At the hearing last year, Justice Edmond Levy called the march "inconsequential," and said that Israel, with its army and police, would be capable of securing it.
In December, the mayor of Umm al-Fahm said residents would turn out in force to prevent the march, whenever it might take place."0 -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/19/israeli-troops-gaza-shootings-civilians
As ever, the truth will out, though slowly.....
Whats worse is that this isn't the first time Israel has done stuff like this and when it happens again, we will see the same denials from Israel and her apologists.0 -
An example of what these people have to put up with on a daily basis. Would this happen in any other "democracy" in the world ?
"Weekly Report: On Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. 12- 18 March 2009"
* Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) Continue Systematic Attacks against Palestinian Civilians and Property in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) and Continue to Impose a Total Siege on the Gaza Strip
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19 Palestinian civilians, including nine children, and an American human rights defender were injured by IOF gunfire in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
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IOF warplanes bombarded targets in the Gaza Strip.
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Intensive air strikes on the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, forced civilians to evacuate their homes in the area.
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IOF conducted 39 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
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IOF arrested 36 Palestinian civilians, including six children.
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IOF have continued to impose a total siege on the OPT and have isolated the Gaza Strip from the outside world.
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IOF troops positioned at military checkpoints in the West Bank arrested three Palestinian civilians, including two children.
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IOF have continued measures aimed at creating a demographic Jewish majority in east Jerusalem.
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IOF demolished five houses rendering 49 Palestinian civilians homeless.
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IOF ordered three families in the old city of Jerusalem to evacuate their houses so they can be demolished.
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IOF have continued settlement activities in the West Bank and Israeli settlers have continued to attack Palestinian civilians and property.
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Israeli settlers added six mobile homes to two settlement outposts in Hebron.
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IOF have continued to establish a new road for settlers in the southern West Bank.
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Israeli settlers held a human rights defender and a journalist in Hebron. "
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/W_report/English/2008/19-03-2009.htm0 -
Deleted User wrote: »There are plenty of occupied countries in the world. Why do Palestinians receive more attention than them?
Are there plenty? I'll try and list them:
Western Sahara, Tibet, North Cyprus, Somalia (part of occupied by Ethiopia).
Any more?0 -
A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »In your mind, this boils down to numbers a la they [someone] blew themselves up in a crowded bar therefore we will fire a load of rockets in their city thus killing hundreds more?
Yep, war isn't very polite, is it?0 -
Stating your own view is not propoganda, once again you have to intend to mislead them in some way.
I disagree with that. I've seen plenty of propoganda which does not even require an adversary to be such. (Just tune into AFKN and see what I mean, it's depressing)
Even the dictionary definition does not require mis-truths.ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause ; also : a public action having such an effect
NTM0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »I disagree with that. I've seen plenty of propoganda which does not even require an adversary to be such.
But its still a non sequiter to say that stating ones own view is propaganda. A view does not necessarily entail propaganda.0 -
There's a debate on DCUFM with two Palestinian academics and a member of the Ireland-Israel friendship league about the Arab-Israeli conflict and the proposed academic boycott of Israel. Labour's Joe Costello also features.
The debate is about 20 minutes of our show, it starts at 3 o clock.
Listen LIVE online here0 -
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Israel's new ultra-nationalist foreign minister has said it is not bound by a US-sponsored 2007 agreement to reach a peace deal with the Palestinians.[ "The Annapolis conference, it has no validity," Avigdor Lieberman said in his first speech since taking office.
He was speaking at a handover ceremony at the foreign ministry, prompting his predecessor Tzipi Livni to interrupt and diplomats to shift uncomfortably.
The Annapolis process was meant to lead to the creation of a Palestinian state.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7977002.stm"There is one document that obligates us - and that's not the Annapolis conference, it has no validity," Mr Lieberman said.
Well....wasting no time, is he? Mind you, Caterpillar are probably optimistic on the future all of a sudden....Every colonisation has a silver lining....0
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