1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Manic Moran

But its still a non sequiter to say that stating ones own view is propaganda. A view does not necessarily entail propaganda.

True. The end goal must be taken into account. An intention to mislead is not required, however.

NTM

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7977002.stm

Well....wasting no time, is he? Mind you, Caterpillar are probably optimistic on the future all of a sudden....Every colonisation has a silver lining....

At least Hamas will be happy that Netanyahu and Lieberman are in power anyway.

paulaa

This is a great start for the new Israeli government . Lieberman complety dismisses Annapolis, Hiliary will be disappointed.
Netanyahu is bursting to get a chance to attack Iran.

And the circle is unbroken. Interesting times ahead.

meditraitor

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

At least Hamas will be happy that Netanyahu and Lieberman are in power anyway.

I dont understand what you mean? please explain!

BlaasForRafa

meditraitor wrote: »

I dont understand what you mean? please explain!

During the Gaza incursion back in January, the leader of Hamas in Damascus said that he would prefer that Netanyahu was in power as then it would be easier for Hamas to create negative PR about Israel in western countries.

meditraitor

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

During the Gaza incursion back in January, the leader of Hamas in Damascus said that he would prefer that Netanyahu was in power as then it would be easier for Hamas to create negative PR about Israel in western countries.

Source?

paulaa

Israel doesn't need Hamas or anyone else to create a bad image of them throughout the world. They have been very capable of doing that for themselves. The Biberman dynamic duo will help things along nicely too:)

IRISH RAIL

the only reaason i dont like bibi is because he took the pensions away

maybe its time this thread was renamed the nodin wes and paula bash Israel and ignore everything hamas has done thread because you still have failed to see what terrorism has brought to the middle east and just purley rely on what the anti Israeli/anti Jewish propoganda feeds you you ignore the attempted bombing in Hiafa and the deaths in Israel over the past 3 weeks and keep praising a people who support terrorism in every form.

The Saint

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

the only reaason i dont like bibi is because he took the pensions away

maybe its time this thread was renamed the nodin wes and paula bash Israel and ignore everything hamas has done thread because you still have failed to see what terrorism has brought to the middle east and just purley rely on what the anti Israeli/anti Jewish propoganda feeds you you ignore the attempted bombing in Hiafa and the deaths in Israel over the past 3 weeks and keep praising a people who support terrorism in every form.

Wow, what a rediculous post. Well done.

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

the only(....)terrorism in every form.

Well, lets have a quiz

They're most likely attacking Israel because

(a) they seek Jewish Blood for sacrificial purposes
(b) teh Muzlims are teh 3bbill!!!!
(c) the Israeli state is colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem while maintaining a stranglehold on Gaza...

Answers by Monday 12.00 GMT

dublincelt

paulaa wrote: »

This is a great start for the new Israeli government . Lieberman complety dismisses Annapolis, Hiliary will be disappointed.
Netanyahu is bursting to get a chance to attack Iran.

And the circle is unbroken. Interesting times ahead.

Thankfully Dubya has left the oval office. Could you imagine what it would be like with these cretins in power now in Israel alongside an administration the most pro-Isreal there has ever been? I just hope the Obama admin can find a way to curtail these facist idiot's.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

the only reaason i dont like bibi is because he took the pensions away

maybe its time this thread was renamed the nodin wes and paula bash Israel and ignore everything hamas has done thread because you still have failed to see what terrorism has brought to the middle east and just purley rely on what the anti Israeli/anti Jewish propoganda feeds you you ignore the attempted bombing in Hiafa and the deaths in Israel over the past 3 weeks and keep praising a people who support terrorism in every form.

Now, now, tell us how you really feel .

I fail to see how pointing out facts from different media, be they Western, Israeli or Arab counts as Anti-Israeli/Jewish propoganda exactly. Also, how exactly is criticising Israel, Anti-Jewish? Last time I checked, not all Jews support every single thing Israel does. It would be kinda like saying criticising Bush, is being Anti-American or something.

As for you accusation of not condemning Hamas, well I have actually done so and I will do so again. I condemn all of Hamas's attacks on civlians. Now, I am sure I can expect a similar unequivocating condemnation from yourself for the many murderous outrages by the IDF and the various acts of state terrorism commited by the state of Israel?

Also, to say the entirety of the Palestinian people support terrorism in every form is laughable. I am sure even the Hamas supporters are against Israel state terrorism against the Palestinians. Of course such pointless hyperbole that accuses an entire people of supporting terrorism (in every form no less) is appaling, especially after accusing so many media outlets of basically being racist.

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

the only reaason i dont like bibi is because he took the pensions away

maybe its time this thread was renamed the nodin wes and paula bash Israel and ignore everything hamas has done thread because you still have failed to see what terrorism has brought to the middle east and just purley rely on what the anti Israeli/anti Jewish propoganda feeds you you ignore the attempted bombing in Hiafa and the deaths in Israel over the past 3 weeks and keep praising a people who support terrorism in every form.

I would be honoured to have a thread name after me for pointing out what a racist, facist, corrupt and rotten "state" Israel has become.

The Israeli electorate voted in Liberman, knowing that he was being investigated for fraud, money laundering and corruption, that's before we even mention his threatening to blow up the Aswan dam which would kill millions of Egyptians. and all the other ridiculous statements he has made.
This is what you voted in as the new Foreign Minister, a Russian mafia-like thug who has no idea of the meaning of diplomacy.

The good thing about it is he is exposing the dark underbelly of the country which the US, UK will not be able to ignore.

They kept Olmert on as acting PM knowing he was being investigated for corruption.
In any other democracy they would be sacked immediately, in Israel they are lauded as heroes.

It says a lot that your only criticism is about pensions. You stick your head in the sand to the racism , savagery and bigotory that is inherent in a large part of Israeli society. Ben Gurion once said Israel will be judged by how it treats the Arabs, well it's being judged now, get used to it.

You have been on this thread long enough to know that none of us whom you have singled out have praised terrorism, whether it be Hamas or Israeli state terrorism. Can you say the same ?

paulaa

I hope it's ok to drag this thread up again as I didn't want to start a new one.

Despite assurances from Israel that aid is getting through to Gaza, nothing of the sort is happening. Thousands of tonnes are rotting away in Egypt because the Mubarak regime refuse to open the border crossings on the orders of Israel.

"AL-ARISH, Egypt, Apr 15 (IPS) - Hundreds of thousands of tonnes of aid intended for the Gaza Strip is piling up in cities across Egypt's North Sinai region, despite recent calls from the United Nations to ease aid flow restrictions to the embattled territory in the wake of Operation Cast Lead.

Food, medicine, blankets, infant food and other supplies for Gaza's 1.5 million people, coming from governments and non-governmental agencies around the world, are being stored in warehouses, parking lots, stadiums and on airport runways across Egypt's North Sinai governorate.

Egypt shares a 14-kilometre border with Gaza that has been closed more or less permanently since the Islamist movement Hamas took control of the territory in June 2007.

Flour, pasta, sugar, coffee, chocolate, tomato sauce, lentils, date bars, juice, chickpeas, blankets, hospital beds, catheter tubes and other humanitarian- based items are all sitting in at least eight storage points in and around Al- Arish, a city in North Sinai approximately 50 kilometres from Gaza's border.

Three months after the end of the war, much of the aid has either rotted or been irreparably damaged as a result of both rain and sunshine, and Egypt's refusal to open the Rafah crossing.


Food aid and other essential humanitarian supplies for Gaza began pouring into Egypt at the outset of the war, and medical supplies were routed through Rafah - Gaza's only crossing that bypasses Israel - throughout the assault, while food aid was directed through Israel.

All aid meant for Gaza via Egypt must currently pass through either Al-Auja or Kerem Abu Sellem, Egypt's commercial crossings with Israel, and is subject to both Israeli-Egyptian trade specifications and Israeli import law.

Much of what is being stored in North Sinai - including food items like lentils, pasta, chickpeas, and juice - has been deemed by Israel to be "non- essential" to life in the Gaza Strip.

Two thousand "family boxes" - containing essential supplies for Palestinian families and donated by the Italian NGO Music for Peace - were recently rejected at the Al-Auja crossing by Israeli authorities because they each contained a jar of honey, the NGO's President, Stefano Robera, told IPS in Al- Arish. "

Full article here http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=46504

dublincelt

paulaa wrote: »

I hope it's ok to drag this thread up again as I didn't want to start a new one.

Despite assurances from Israel that aid is getting through to Gaza, nothing of the sort is happening. Thousands of tonnes are rotting away in Egypt because the Mubarak regime refuse to open the border crossings on the orders of Israel.

"AL-ARISH, Egypt, Apr 15 (IPS) - Hundreds of thousands of tonnes of aid intended for the Gaza Strip is piling up in cities across Egypt's North Sinai region, despite recent calls from the United Nations to ease aid flow restrictions to the embattled territory in the wake of Operation Cast Lead.

Food, medicine, blankets, infant food and other supplies for Gaza's 1.5 million people, coming from governments and non-governmental agencies around the world, are being stored in warehouses, parking lots, stadiums and on airport runways across Egypt's North Sinai governorate.

Egypt shares a 14-kilometre border with Gaza that has been closed more or less permanently since the Islamist movement Hamas took control of the territory in June 2007.

Flour, pasta, sugar, coffee, chocolate, tomato sauce, lentils, date bars, juice, chickpeas, blankets, hospital beds, catheter tubes and other humanitarian- based items are all sitting in at least eight storage points in and around Al- Arish, a city in North Sinai approximately 50 kilometres from Gaza's border.

Three months after the end of the war, much of the aid has either rotted or been irreparably damaged as a result of both rain and sunshine, and Egypt's refusal to open the Rafah crossing.


Food aid and other essential humanitarian supplies for Gaza began pouring into Egypt at the outset of the war, and medical supplies were routed through Rafah - Gaza's only crossing that bypasses Israel - throughout the assault, while food aid was directed through Israel.

All aid meant for Gaza via Egypt must currently pass through either Al-Auja or Kerem Abu Sellem, Egypt's commercial crossings with Israel, and is subject to both Israeli-Egyptian trade specifications and Israeli import law.

Much of what is being stored in North Sinai - including food items like lentils, pasta, chickpeas, and juice - has been deemed by Israel to be "non- essential" to life in the Gaza Strip.

Two thousand "family boxes" - containing essential supplies for Palestinian families and donated by the Italian NGO Music for Peace - were recently rejected at the Al-Auja crossing by Israeli authorities because they each contained a jar of honey, the NGO's President, Stefano Robera, told IPS in Al- Arish. "

Full article here http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=46504

Why should Israel let these food items through? The people of Gaza voted in a terrorist regime and must be punished accordingly. Well at least that’s what the apologists on here believe. Israel is the real pariah state in the middle east. Shame on them, I loathe them more and more each day.


Hell, any country that has Ian Paisley as one of its biggest supporter's, well that tells you all you need to know about the sectarian state that is Israel

Nodin

A World Bank report blames Palestinian mismanagement and Israeli restrictions for severe water shortages in Palestinian areas. Palestinians get only a quarter of the water Israelis have access to.
The existing problems effect not just daily supply but the development of water resources, water uses and wastewater management.
"Water related humanitarian crisis are in fact chronic in Gaza and parts of the West Bank," says the report.

For their water Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are completely depended on scarce resources controlled by Israel.
This has led to "systematic and severe constraints on Palestinian development of water resources", says the report.

Link

Just to catalogue the ongoing problems faced day by day....

paulaa

Nodin wrote: »

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/800780
1.stm"]Link[/URL]

A World Bank report blames Palestinian mismanagement and Israeli restrictions for severe water shortages in Palestinian areas. Palestinians get only a quarter of the water Israelis have access to.
The existing problems effect not just daily supply but the development of water resources, water uses and wastewater management.
"Water related humanitarian crisis are in fact chronic in Gaza and parts of the West Bank," says the report.

For their water Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are completely depended on scarce resources controlled by Israel.
This has led to "systematic and severe constraints on Palestinian development of water resources", says the report.

Just to catalogue the ongoing problems faced day by day....

So it's "Bad Management" that Israel bombed the water treatment plants in the Gaza Strip and won't allow anything in to allow repairs to be carried.

It's the Palestinians fault too, I suppose, that they are only allowed 17% of the total water supply in the West Bank while the rest goes to Israelis and settlers for, not only their basic needs, but to fill their swimming pools and water their flowers.
How selfish of the Palestinians !!!

meditraitor

The amnesty report on the Gaza

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0702/gaza.pdf

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0702/gaza.html

1400 murdered, 300 of those children

Amnesty International has accused Israeli forces of war crimes in Gaza, saying they used children as human shields and conducted wanton attacks on civilians.

The report has been rejected as 'unbalanced' by Israel.

The human rights group also accused Hamas of war crimes, but said it found no evidence to support Israeli claims that Gaza's Islamist rulers used civilians as human shields during Israel's massive 22-day offensive.

It reiterated its call for international arms embargoes against Israel and Hamas, and called for 'criminal investigations in national courts' under universal jurisdiction wherever there is sufficient evidence of war crimes.

'Much of the destruction was wanton and resulted from direct attacks on civilian objects,' Amnesty said in a report on the December-January war in Gaza.

AdvertisementIn numerous cases, Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, 'effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk,' the group said.

'Intentionally using civilians to shield a military objective, often referred to as using human shields is a war crime,' Amnesty said.


One Palestinian quoted in the report said Israeli troops forced him on three occasions to go into a house to check whether gunmen holed up inside were still alive.

The report said it found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings.

But it said Palestinian armed groups fired hundreds of rockets into southern Israel.

'Such unlawful attacks constitute war crimes and are unacceptable,' said Donatella Rovera, who led an Amnesty mission to Gaza and southern Israel.

Amnesty also accused Hamas of endangering Palestinian civilians by firing rockets from residential areas and storing weapons and ammunition there.

More than 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis died during the offensive Israel launched in response to rocket fire by militants in the impoverished and overcrowded territory.

Amnesty said 300 children were among those killed.

It said hundreds of civilians were killed in attacks carried out using high-precision weapons. 'Others, including women and children, were shot at short range when posing no threat to the lives of the Israeli soldiers,' it said.

'Wilful killings of unarmed civilians are war crimes,' Amnesty said.

It said Israel's use of white phosphorus shells was also a clear breach of international law.

White phosphorus is not illegal if used as a smokescreen in open areas 'but it should not be used in a densely populated area as it was used here,' Ms Rovera said, adding that her team saw Palestinians with 'hideous burns' from white phosphorus shells.

The Israeli military called the report 'unbalanced' and 'distorted.'

'The slant of their report indicates that the organisation succumbed to the manipulations of the Hamas terror organisation,' it said in a statement.

The military insisted its forces used 'fighting methods and advanced technology to minimise harm to the civilian population while engaging terrorists who were operating from densely populated areas.

It also accused Amnesty of ignoring 'the blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas.'

13 pages of the 117-page study are devoted to the conduct of Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups.

In the report, Amnesty calls on Hamas to 'publicly renounce its policy of unlawful rocket attacks against civilian population centres in Israel.

Manic Moran

After going through the report on an initial basis, at least the unfounded idealism works both ways. For example, the report claims that the Palestinian Qassam rockets, being unguided and thus indiscriminate, are unlawful under international law. Really? I note the report does not mention which law such a rocket is unlawful under. Probably because they can't find a law to support the claim. Actually, I've noted very little supporting documentation in the report for most of the claims, but I'll go over it with a bit of a more fine comb later. They also suffer from logic flaw. They are careful to note that hitting innocents is inevitable even with the best of intentions, and happily conceed that many incidents were exactly that. But their evidence that attacks were carried out in other circumstances was that "However, the killings of many of the hundreds of Palestinian civilians not involved in the conflict, including some 300 children, cannot simply be dismissed as “collateral damage” –incidental to otherwise lawful attacks – or as mistakes." There is a logic flow problem here. Amnesty have been at the forefront of saying how many thousands of pounds of explosives were dropped. You drop enough explosives, and even if 100% of the incidents were unintentional, you're going to hit 300 children.

Now, that's not to say that there's no substance behind some of Amnesty's claims. But they're diluting their own authenticity by their own fallacies.

NTM

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

After going through the report on an initial basis, at least the unfounded idealism works both ways. For example, the report claims that the Palestinian Qassam rockets, being unguided and thus indiscriminate, are unlawful under international law. Really? I note the report does not mention which law such a rocket is unlawful under. Probably because they can't find a law to support the claim. Actually, I've noted very little supporting documentation in the report for most of the claims, but I'll go over it with a bit of a more fine comb later. They also suffer from logic flaw. They are careful to note that hitting innocents is inevitable even with the best of intentions, and happily conceed that many incidents were exactly that. But their evidence that attacks were carried out in other circumstances was that "However, the killings of many of the hundreds of Palestinian civilians not involved in the conflict, including some 300 children, cannot simply be dismissed as “collateral damage” –incidental to otherwise lawful attacks – or as mistakes." There is a logic flow problem here. Amnesty have been at the forefront of saying how many thousands of pounds of explosives were dropped. You drop enough explosives, and even if 100% of the incidents were unintentional, you're going to hit 300 children.

Now, that's not to say that there's no substance behind some of Amnesty's claims. But they're diluting their own authenticity by their own fallacies.

NTM

Well, I certainly find Amnesty's claims to perfectly legitimate, especially in light of comments made by Israeli leaders during the conflict:

From Al Jazeera English:
Who will save Israel from itself?

--SNIP--
War crimes admission

Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.

Indeed, in reviewing statements by Israeli military planners leading up to the invasion, it is clear that there was a well thought out decision to go after Gaza's civilian infrastructure - and with it, civilians.

The following quote from an interview with Major-General Gadi Eisenkot that appeared in the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth in October, is telling:

"We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective these [the villages] are military bases," he said.

"This isn't a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorised."

Causing "immense damage and destruction" and considering entire villages "military bases" is absolutely prohibited under international law.

Eisenkot's description of this planning in light of what is now unfolding in Gaza is a clear admission of conspiracy and intent to commit war crimes, and when taken with the comments above, and numerous others, renders any argument by Israel that it has tried to protect civilians and is not engaging in disproportionate force unbelievable.
--SNIP--

Click here for full article

In light of the above comments, it seems very clear to me that the state of Israel intended to engage in war crimes and I feel that the Amnesty investigation confirms that they did indeed do so.

Sand

Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.

I was going to give you some grief for editing Livni's comment, but actually it was your source who did so.

Id very much like to see the actual comment made as opposed to what could be a very heavily edited one.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

I was going to give you some grief for editing Livni's comment, but actually it was your source who did so.

Id very much like to see the actual comment made as opposed to what could be a very heavily edited one.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said during the meeting, "On my way here I heard that Hamas declared the man killed by a rocket in Ashkelon 'one of the Zionists' despite being an Israeli Arab. They don't make a distinction, and neither should we."

http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000742.htm

Indeed it was....

Sand

Thanks - I suspected as much given that it was edited so strangely but I wasnt going to spend time digging it out. Cheers anyhow.

Manic Moran

wes wrote: »

In light of the above comments, it seems very clear to me that the state of Israel intended to engage in war crimes and I feel that the Amnesty investigation confirms that they did indeed do so.

They can say whatever they want for whatever political or psychological reasons they wish. Nothing unlawful about that. The actions are what need to be analysed. And there's nothing wrong with causing lots of destruction as long as it's targetted correctly, it tends to come with dropping lots of bombs.

NTM

Sand

TBH, the comments Wes was referring to dont really support his case:

Livni was commentating on the differentiation between Jewish Israelis and Israeli Arabs - she made the point that the Hamas described the murder of an Israeli Arab in an attack as an attack on a Zionist. Hence she made the point that Hamas does not differentiate between Israelis on the basis of creed or race and that Israelis should not do so either.

I dont think Wes would strongly disagree with that.

Also, the article Nodin linked noted that Major-General Gadi Eisenkot has no authority to make policy for Israel and was not in command of Israels operations in Gaza - he was deployed in the north guarding against Hezbollah in Lebanon and made his comments in that context. He wasnt even talking about Gaza.

No doubt, there are ruthless people within the Israeli leadership and the IDF who will carry out and reconcile atrocities with their own morality. But theres a hell of a lot of propaganda too.

KINGVictor

Ares Vast Hog wrote: »

Has anyone called for a boycott of Israeli imports yet?.

And that would make them impotent or powerless...??? you must be a joker or you do not understand the intricases of world politics.Little Isreal is far more powerful than the EU as a group....or How would explain the fact that they indirectly control US and UK politics.

I dont need to explain their influence on US politics...in the UK
The speaker,Justice minister,Lord mandelson -Business secretary ( and also the de-facto acting prime minister) are all Jewish.

Boycott their products at your own peril.

Sand

I dont need to explain their influence on US politics...in the UK
The speaker,Justice minister,Lord mandelson -Business secretary ( and also the de-facto acting prime minister) are all Jewish.

Sekrit international Jewish conspiracy idd

:rolleyes:

KINGVictor

Sand wrote: »

Sekrit international Jewish conspiracy idd

:rolleyes:

Sorry I dont get your post...but it is apparent that Israel through their own ingenuity have placed themselves in a very pivotal position.On boards we can argue about whether their actions in Palestine is justified or not....very irrelevant to the post I replied to ....the poster asked for a ban on all Israeli imports and I felt that would be a mistake.

Coming to the AI report....a lot of folks have consistently queried on this thread what Ireland would do if we were in Israels shoes...I have not heard a satisfactory responce.It is very difficult to judge a man if you have not been in his shoes..

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Sekrit international Jewish conspiracy idd

:rolleyes:

Mein Gott!!!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

KINGVictor wrote: »

And that would make them impotent or powerless...??? you must be a joker or you do not understand the intricases of world politics.Little Isreal is far more powerful than the EU as a group....or How would explain the fact that they indirectly control US and UK politics.

I dont need to explain their influence on US politics...in the UK
The speaker,Justice minister,Lord mandelson -Business secretary ( and also the de-facto acting prime minister) are all Jewish.

Boycott their products at your own peril.

LOL, you don't know me or my posts/view's on Israel very well do you?.

And btw, don't be hating on all Jew's just because you disapprove of Israeli defensive actions against Palestinians terrorists or US/UK foreign policy.

.