1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Permabear

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sceptre

donegalfella wrote: »

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That tends to be typical of a US handover. Election practices are election practices but after the election and before the inauguration, the new guy rarely criticises the old guy and vice-versa.

Permabear

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Begob

wes wrote: »

You can't be a state for one ethnic/religious group and be a democracy, this goes for Israel and a lot of its neighbors.

You can't be king of England either without being a protestant.Is England a democracy?
There are anomolies everywhere but essentially where people vote for their governments ,it's a democracy.

This was so predictable-Israel are doing this now before the new broom comes to the whitehouse.
They know damn well that Obama,powerless at the moment will be in there like flynn with some new peace initiative headed by Hilary and with the mind of Bill Clinton,the minute he's inaugerated.
So they are doing their damnest now so as to have as much of a Hamass wipe out as possible before then.

They and the electorate of Israel in my opinion are looking out for themselves by these reprehensible actions.
You'd have to get into their mindset to know why.
It's an eye for an eye except their maths as the thread title suggests is skewed.
It's never worked before and it wont work now but it might be 8 years before the Americans will allow them to do it again.

Manic Moran

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not really. There's electioneering where everyone can say anything without any huge weight, but once the decision has been made that one specific person and his policies will be in force after the changeover, that gives the weight to undermine whatever policy is currently in force. Again, this should be fairly standard, and the same courtesy will be expected when Obama's turn comes to hand over power.

NTM

wes

donegalfella wrote: »

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Of course it does. Other states being Islamic, is no excuse for Israel.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I already stated that above. The state calls itself Jewish and democratic, so its a democracy for one group of 1 people as per there own law.

donegalfella wrote: »

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That was a British declaration and not a Israeli one and I am well aware of the British giving away something that didn't belong to them. Perhaps, you should look it up, as you confusing a British declaration with Israel law, which is odd.

donegalfella wrote: »

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As I stated anyone who wanted Israel to be a state of all its citizen can't.

So if a Palestinian politician violates that law they can't.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I understand it very well. You choose to make every excuse possible for it. The law is clear, Israel is a Jewish state and democracy, and if anyone challenges the Jewish state bit then they can't be elected. Strange you choose to ignore this.

wes

Begob wrote: »

You can't be king of England either without being a protestant.Is England a democracy?
There are anomolies everywhere but essentially where people vote for their governments ,it's a democracy.

The monarchy in the UK has no power and is it not democratically elected. Yes, it is an anomaly, but in the UK a Muslim/Jew/Hindu could be Prime Minister, as long as they get the votes and it they dared say that they should repeal the Law that allows only a Protestant to be King/Queen, they could still stand for election. If a Palestinian tried to make Israel a nation of all its citizens, he can't stand for election. There is a huge difference between the 2.

How you can compare a elected official to a King/Queen born in to the role is beyond me btw. There 2 different things altogether.

sceptre

donegalfella wrote: »

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They can.

(let's all nip that one in the bud before anyone with big opinions completely demonstrates their lack of knowledge on the matter and drags it off topic even more pointlessly)

There are currently 12 Israeli Arabs in the Knesset, including Taleb el-Sana, who's been in the Knesset since 1992. When he was first elected, for the United Arab Party, that might have been a giveaway clue. Majalli Wahabi (current Deputy Speaker) was acting head of state for a while in 2007 and Raleb Majadele is currently Minster for sport, culture & science. I quite enjoy Majadele's answers to parliamentary questions, he doesn't mince words at all (worth looking up if you've never heard of the chap). I don't see the point in my listing the other nine, rest assured they all exist. I take an interest in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, as I've said before, they remind me so much of the children with guns up North on this island.

Permabear

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turgon

I find it extraordinary the way some of the posters have aligned themselves here even though there not from the region. Rational logic would have us conclude that both the Israeli government and Hamas are wrong, and yet some people seem to be oblivious of this fact.

Its also disconcerting to see some posters base their arguments on some population map made in 1947. Come on like, 60 years ago. How far back is it acceptable to go in this respect. Shall we go back 1900 years and just hand the whole lot over to the Catholic Pope himself?

For this problem to be worked out, both sides will have to relinquish ground, both in the literal and literary sense of that phrase. This will have to involve admission of their own failings and wrongs. Fair enough I realize that killing 155 (I think?) Palestinians is extremely wrong, but that doesnt make killing 1 Israeli in any way acceptable.

The Saint

turgon wrote: »

Its also disconcerting to see some posters base their arguments on some population map made in 1947. Come on like, 60 years ago. How far back is it acceptable to go in this respect. Shall we go back 1900 years and just hand the whole lot over to the Catholic Pope himself?

I presume this was addressed at me. With the maps I was addressing a specific post from another poster. I agree it is fairly pointless in the arguement but useful in understanding where we are now. However demographics are extremely relevant when Israel is continually altering the demographic realities on the ground in contravention of international law especially in regard to cutting Jerusalem off from the West Bank. We have to go back to some point otherwise Israel will continue to settle people on Palestinian land if people deem it to be a legitimate way to expand its borders. I think we should go back to the June 1967 borders as is the internationally recognised legal border. This is also the international consensus.

Permabear

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A Dub in Glasgo

You think Israel is morally right to slaughter civilians? You think that anyone who is a 'legitimate' state is morally right to slaughter civilians?

Boston

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You think Israel is morally right to slaughter civilians? You think that anyone who is a 'legitimate' state is morally right to slaughter civilians?

There is no moral right in war. Those who pretend there is have never seen it.

turgon

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You think Israel is morally right to slaughter civilians?

No. Do you think Hamas is?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Are you disagreeing with my statement? Please enlighten me how either side cannot be termed "wrong".

A Dub in Glasgo

turgon wrote: »

No. Do you think Hamas is?

No, do you? DF seems to be saying that it is morally right for Israel to carry out this slaughter

Permabear

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Manic Moran

Sorry, but this is not my idea of "rational logic." The Israeli government is the democratically elected parliament of a legitimate nation state. Hamas is a paramilitary terrorist organization—according to the European Union, the United States, and many other countries—whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

It may be a terrorist organization, but it is terrorist organization which has been elected to be the government of the PNA. What they choose to do with the rights and responsibilities of the office is their problem but that doesn't negate the fact that in that capacity they and the Israeli government should be held to the same standards.

Boston wrote: »

There is no moral right in war. Those who pretend there is have never seen it.

I'm going to beg to differ on that one. There is not always going to be a moral right in war, but that does not mean that there can never be.

NTM

Permabear

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Permabear

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turgon

donegalfella wrote: »

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But is this justification in your opinion not negated by the fact that the Israeli attacks are in general more devastating by factors quite great (155 it seems in this case)?? Or would you by willing to admit that you see Israels action as wholly and totally acceptable?

sceptre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You think Israel is morally right to slaughter civilians? You think that anyone who is a 'legitimate' state is morally right to slaughter civilians?

Neither side is acting all that morally right now.

Let's see where we are. Hamas has been firing rockets at Ashkelon and Ashdod. Ignoring that firing rockets runs a risk of killing civilians, we know their aim isn't that good. They're stretching for Tel Aviv and will definitely reach that within a year or two, especially as long as they go for range, not accuracy. With a good tail wind and a bit of luck at their end, there's a possibility that we're talking days, not years. By this morning, the Israelis had killed 315 on the other side, including, according to the UN, 51 civilians. Hamas have announced that they're going to resume suicide bombings and the Israelis don't have a problem killing four year olds, regarding it as an unfortunate consequence. People are hiding under their mattresses in Gaza, as if that gives them any protection and when the suicide bombings resume, Israelis will be too afraid to go for a cup of coffee. Israel has called up 6,000 reserve troops, keep that in mind when you hear the analysis in a few days that they need about 10,000 for a full scale invasion of the strip. Every bullet fired at Gaza increases support for Hamas, every rocket fired out increases Israeli resolve. Hamas want to drive the Israelis into the sea and the Israeli government appears happy enough to let the Palestinians starve to death. Mahmoud Abbas got the security compound next to his house flattened and the last rocket landed only 20 miles from Tel Aviv.

You honestly think anyone can play the moral card right now? Because I'm quite curious as to how.

A Dub in Glasgo

donegalfella wrote: »

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So, in your eyes, this is morally acceptable and right. Those damned terrorists were manning the rockets

turgon

And, to compliment Manic Morans point, seeming as you take great heart in the fact that Israels government is democratically elected dont you conceed that Hamas is the will of the majority in Gaza, and thus carrying out its duty to its people in the same vein as Israel?

A Dub in Glasgo

sceptre wrote: »

Neither side is acting all that morally right now.


You honestly think anyone can play the moral card right now?

No, I am not claiming any side is morally right and justifying the actions

PeakOutput

turgon wrote: »

But is this justification in your opinion not negated by the fact that the Israeli attacks are in general more devastating by factors quite great (155 it seems in this case)?? Or would you by willing to admit that you see Israels action as wholly and totally acceptable?

they are not all civilian casualties as has been mentioned by myself and others in the ah thread hamas place their 'government buildings' beside hospitals schools whatever so that when they are attacked they can play on the inevitable civilian casualties

the latest attack according to the un via rte kill 350ish people only 57 (so far to be fair) have been deemed civilians. so the vast majority were in one respect or another deemed combatants or representatives of combatants by the un.

its the exact opposite when you look at the casualties of the hamas attacks the fact they have killed less people is irrelavant. this is not as simple as school yard tit for tat

Valmont

None of this would be happening if Israel just gave them their own little state! Why don't they? I'd imagine if a Palestinian flew a paper aeroplane into Israel, they'd shoot him and his family in retaliation and then blame him. Hamas have to take some responsibility for firing rockets into Israel but I think Israels disproportionate and indiscriminate response is morally reprehensible.

Nodin

Boston wrote: »

Limiting ourselves to current events, I do believe Hamas where firing rockets into israel prior to the bombing of police stations.

While Israel is building colonies

Boston wrote: »

Also I don't accept what you say about apartheid. If the Arabs in gaze where israeli citizens you'd have a point. As it is you don't. Separate nation.

There are Israeli citizens in the West Bank as Colonists. The de-factor power there is the Israeli state. The Arabs are under martial law, the Israeli settlers under full Israeli civil law. Semi-apartheid statelet.

Serenity Now wrote:

what happened that gave Israel the chance to expand into Syrian and Jordanian occupied Palestine? .

A war. However as the aqquistion of territory by war is completely outlawed since WWII its really neither here nor there.

Donegalfella wrote:

So Arabs are treated as "second-class citizens" in Israel—despite the fact that they may vote, work, own property, live where they choose, and attend Israeli schools? .

The Arabs are treated like second class citizens. The Bedouin are often reduced to living in caves.

ACRI wrote:

According to the annual report of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), published on 8 December 2007, racism against Palestinian citizens of Israel has dramatically increased in the past year, including a 26 percent rise in anti-Arab incidents.

Link

Submission to the UN wrote:

Adalah - The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel - emphasized numerous discriminatory laws and state practices faced by Arab citizens, which violate Israel’s obligations under the ICERD: institutionalised discrimination in land and housing policies, discrimination resulting from the granting of military service benefits, a harsh new criminal procedure law for detainees suspected of security offences, impunity in cases of excessive use of force by the police against Arab citizens, including the October 2000 killings; a law banning family unification with Palestinians from the Occupied Territories based solely on national origin, unequal state funding of Arab towns and villages and the lack of participation of Arab citizens in the planning process, displacement and dispossession of Arab Bedouin citizens from the unrecognised villages in the Naqab, discriminatory resources allocated to and limitations on access to education for Arab students, discrimination in state support for Arab cultural institutions, and the lack of recognition for Muslim holy sites in Israel, among others

http://www.fidh.org/spip.php?article4069

HRW wrote:

The Israeli government operates two separate school systems, one for Jewish children and one for Palestinian Arab children. Discrimination against Palestinian Arab children colors every aspect of the two systems.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-01.htm

..and theres far far far more.

PeakOutput

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

So, in your eyes, this is morally acceptable and right. Those damned terrorists were manning the rockets

seriously cop on innocent people WILL die. that is why war is evil. at the moment it is HAMAS that is perpetuating this war

turgon

Nodin wrote: »

Link

But arent Jews also discriminated against in Arab countries? Are you trying to justify one side and accepting the actions of the other? Because they seem both very comparable in respect of what is right and wrong.