1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

turgon

PeakOutput wrote: »

seriously cop on innocent people WILL die. that is why war is evil. at the moment it is HAMAS that is perpetuating this war

Are you justifying the Israelis as well?

It seems posters here change the criteria by which they judge the government of Israel and Hamas respectively whenever it suits them so as to result in the side they like always being right, and the other always wrong. Its quite ridiculous.

Another point for donegalfella, if you take so much pride in the moral authority of nation states, describe your feelings on the irish terrorists fighting the British state in 1921. I would imagine you are supportive of the British judging by your support of Israel, on the condition that it is a state.

Valmont

I don't think anyone can argue against the fact that the Palestinians are treated terribly in Israel. I don't have a link but the Economist did a special feature about it last year, they have an awful time by the looks of it.

A Dub in Glasgo

PeakOutput wrote: »

seriously cop on innocent people WILL die. that is why war is evil. at the moment it is HAMAS that is perpetuating this war

Seriously cop on? WTF?

Ah sure a bit of 'collateral' damage never hurt anyone. Morally correct and righteous and all that apologist stuff!

PeakOutput

turgon wrote: »

Are you justifying the Israelis as well?

It seems posters here change the criteria by which they judge the government of Israel and Hamas respectively whenever it suits them so as to result in the side they like always being right, and the other always wrong. Its quite ridiculous.

the israelis are justified in taking any means necessary to protect their people yes

are they justified in their other actions(someone mentioned killing a child for throwing a stone) of course not

BUT there was a ceasefire and hamas chose not to renew it when it expired and then attacked israel

do you think hamas only killed a couple of people with their rockets by choice? or are you sensible and believe if they had the same equipment as israel they would use it to kill hundreds if not thousands of israelis? so guess what they attacked israel respond with force that there was never any question would come. no matter what else hamas do not get to play the moral highground to the rest of the world which is what they are trying to do and the outspoken against israel are playing right into their hands

next week they will attack again and kill some more israelis, israel will respond hamas will release loads of pictures and again israel will be put under pressure to stop defending itself and hamas can carry on blissfully perpetuating their citizens fear that allowed hamas to rise to power in the first place

Permabear

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PeakOutput

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Seriously cop on? WTF?

there is no need post inflammatory/sensitive/horrible(whatever the right word is pictures everyone knows innocent people are dieing. just because you post such things does not make your point stronger it in fact weakens it

one side simply stopping attacking the other is not going to solve anything. a ceasefire and peace talks would solve alot but hamas rejected another ceasefire and ATTACKED

Nodin

turgon wrote: »

But arent Jews also discriminated against in Arab countries?

Yes they are, as are various other minorities be it religous racial or sexual, depending on the specifics. However I don't believe I've been here defending any Arab states over that issue lately, or anytime, come to that. The claim was made that Arab-Israelis arent treated badly. I'm pointing out thats incorrect.

Boston

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm going to beg to differ on that one. There is not always going to be a moral right in war, but that does not mean that there can never be.

NTM

Can we agree that in this one there isn't

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes. The Allies did terrible things in world war 2. They carpet bombed entire cities and they dropped the bomb. Do you know what happened to the civilian population of Berlin when the Red army invaded? Lets not talk about morality and war.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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All of them?

Tirabaralla

It's a total SHAME.

Don Diego

donegalfella wrote: »

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And Israels first Prime-Minister, David Ben-Gurion said:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

And you think Palestinians dont have a right to defend themselves against that?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Again. The only place wiped off the map is Palestine.

marco murphy

the israelis are justified in taking any means necessary to protect their people yes

The Saint

donegalfella wrote: »

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If you really want to be taken seriously you should really try to look at the facts. Israel has a full peace with Egypt and Jordan. The Arab League has offered Israel full peace and normalisation of realtions in 2002 for abiding by their obligations under international law. This was also endorsed again in 2007. This was unanimously supported by all 22 members states of the Arab League including the Palestinian Authority. Sounds like a pretty good offer to me. Apparently even Hamas supported it.

The spokesman, Ismail Abu Shanab, said that if Israel agrees to the Saudi plan, which calls for the Jewish state to return to its pre-1967 borders in return for "normal relations" with Arab nations, Hamas will "cease all military activities."

"That would be satisfactory for all Palestinian military groups to stop and build our state, to be busy in our own affairs, and have good neighborhood with Israelis," he said.

marco murphy

The Saint wrote: »

If you really want to be taken seriously you should really try to look at the facts. Israel has a full peace with Egypt and Jordan. The Arab League has offered Israel full peace and normalisation of realtions in 2002 for abiding by their obligations under international law. This was also endorsed again in 2007. This was unanimously supported by all 22 members states of the Arab League including the Palestinian Authority. Sounds like a pretty good offer to me. Apparently even Hamas supported it.

Not only that, anyone I have heard stating they want Israel wiped off the map is in reference to the political establishment of Israel. That is a state based on the oppression and imprisonment of others.

sceptre

Don Diego wrote: »

And Israels first Prime-Minister, David Ben-Gurion said:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

No he didn't. That's a made-up quote. Oddly enough a made-up quote that was first attributed to Yisrael Koenig in the Koenig memorandum, written in 1976. Not to Ben-Gurion.

Of course, not only was it not said by Ben-Gurion, it also wasn't said by Koenig. It's a bit disappointing that some academic papers have credited it to Koenig over the years but that's as a result of lots of academics being lazy and just citing earlier mistakes. Always worth checking primary sources. The crediting of the thing to Ben-Gurion can be blamed on the Internet and people being too lazy to check anything. Works like those silly chain letters that float around. I'm assuming you've been had, better that than you just making it up (and why bother when countless idiots on the Internet have made it up before you).

PeakOutput

what exactly are you trying to illustrate with your pictures? that bad things happen or that israel is clearly trying to target hamas personall?? only one or two of your pictures show no military personell in them

other than that its just propoganda those photos dont show one side is any more right or wrong then the other they only show war is evil

edit my spelling is getting worse and worse

marco murphy

PeakOutput wrote: »

what exactly are you trying to illustrate with your pictures? that bad things happen or that israel is clearly trying to target hamas personall?? only one or two of your pictures show no military personell in them

other than that its just propoganda those photos dont show one side is any more right or wrong then the other they only show war is evil

If I post a photo of a pile of dead school girls will your reply be the same?

Never mind war being evil, you're trying to justify it. You're trying to justify Israels attempt to drive the people out of Palestine so they can expand their ''homeland''. They are scum, and you can't defend these actions.

Manic Moran

But is this justification in your opinion not negated by the fact that the Israeli attacks are in general more devastating by factors quite great (155 it seems in this case)??

Shouldn't be. The ratios have nothing to do with intent. It just happens that the Israelis are far better equipped and capable of reaching their intent than the Palestinians are.

Cool. A photo of an F-16 over Israel. I can find much better photos than that.

NTM

A Dub in Glasgo

PeakOutput wrote: »

there is no need post inflammatory/sensitive/horrible(whatever the right word is pictures everyone knows innocent people are dieing.

You are so supportive of it, you must be comfortable looking at it. It ain't Gears of War on the 360 you know

marco murphy

Shouldn't be. The ratios have nothing to do with intent. It just happens that the Israelis are far better equipped and capable of reaching their intent than the Palestinians are.

They're intent being to inflict ultimate punishment on the people of Gaza for their democratic election of Hamas, and to further terrorise the lives of Palestinians.

there is no need post inflammatory/sensitive/horrible(whatever the right word is pictures everyone knows innocent people are dieing.

Why not. You're so vocal in support of it, you obviously don't mind seeing the results of it.
Have you lived through a war? Experienced it? Want to go to Gaza and voice your support?

PeakOutput

Perestroika wrote: »

If I post a photo of a pile of dead school girls will your reply be the same?

Never mind war being evil, you're trying to justify it. You're trying to justify Israels attempt to drive the people out of Palestine so they can expand their ''homeland''. They are scum, and you can't defend these actions.

palestine is doing the same thing in case you didnt notice

if you cannot seperate your head form your heart then you are doomed never to see things objectively

these are tradgedies, these tradgedies are caused by BOTH sides. these tradgedies are symptoms not causes of the problem between israel and palestine

when the causes are removed the symptoms are going to go away so talking about 100 dead people or 200 dead people, men women children, really does not matter accept that its wasting time that could be spent talking about how to stop the next 200 dead people.

i cant believe so many people see palestine threw such rose tinted goggles, just because they are less efficient does not make them less dispicable.

PeakOutput

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are so supportive of it, you must be comfortable looking at it. It ain't Gears of War on the 360 you know

the fact that i dont break down in tears when i see imagery of human suffering merely allows me to look at situations like this objectively. me being desensitised is an unfortunate result of having an interest in situations like this

if i could do something that would save the lives of anyone in those pictures and in pictures of israeli dead i would. i just so happen to believe that the way to do that is to stop the violence on both sides and that people who have no interest in a ceasefire are people who do not deserve the time of day

marco murphy

PeakOutput wrote: »

palestine is doing the same thing in case you didnt notice

if you cannot seperate your head form your heart then you are doomed never to see things objectively

these are tradgedies, these tradgedies are caused by BOTH sides. these tradgedies are symptoms not causes of the problem between israel and palestine

when the causes are removed the symptoms are going to go away so talking about 100 dead people or 200 dead people, men women children, really does not matter accept that its wasting time that could be spent talking about how to stop the next 200 dead people.

i cant believe so many people see palestine threw such rose tinted goggles, just because they are less efficient does not make them less dispicable.

Palestine is doing what? Palestinians, in general, what are they doing, apart from living a life of fear?
What you are doing is blaming the actions of the oppressor on the oppressed. You're following the political message of the likes of Sky News when they report it as ''Retaliation against Hamas'' which is absolutely bollocks to be honest. This is part of the bigger picture, that is terrorise the living hell out of Palestinians. It is the largest open air prison in the world and this has to stop. The apologists on this forum are just unreal. Again, go over to Gaza and live what you preach. These attacks are totally unjustifyable. Stop living in dreamland.

Manic Moran

They're intent being to inflict ultimate punishment on the people of Gaza for their democratic election of Hamas, and to further terrorise the lives of Palestinians.

This happened after (a) Hamas was elected, or (b) Hamas declared the ceasefire over and started lobbing rockets.

Cause and effect.

NTM

marco murphy

Manic Moran wrote: »

This happened after (a) Hamas was elected, or (b) Hamas declared the ceasefire over and started lobbing rockets.

Cause and effect.

NTM

This has happened since as far back as I can remember, just that it has been upped to a much more intensive assault.
From cutting off of power to the whole population of Gaza (for punishment), from blockading of essential supplies like medicine (and calling it contraband) to the constant harrasment of Palestinian citizens.

I understand you are intellegent, so you're either towing the line of a Zionist, or you actually fail to realise that when the mainstream media report ''retaliation against Hamas'' that that is merely an excuse. Just like 2006 Lebanon was. ''Kidnapped Soldiers Response''. Absolute excuse.
And no matter what the excuse, you can justify it, so stop trying.

turgon

I am glad to have gotten some sensible replys.

Now that we have, in fairness, determined that yes Israel does have some rights to attack with a view to defending its people, at least until a permanent peace settlement is made, the ferocity of the attacks must be called into question. Does Israel need to kill 300 people, or could it have kept it a bit smaller? I personally disagree with the scale of the attacks. Although the attempt was made to be a deterrent, at a certain stage attacks become so huge they only agitate the local populace.

A little analogy, perhaps. If there was some political group I only half heartily agreed with ideologically running around Cork City throwing bombs into say Waterford city, I would not agree with the method. However if their killing of a few of the Waterford populace was matched by a big bombing campaign on Cork City involving the deaths of 300 people I would be pretty peeved and more likely to join the group. If on the other hand the revenge attack had been of the same small scale I would be more inclined to dismiss it. Would ye agree?

Finally, can supporters of Hamas agree that ultimately the conflict can only be ended if Hamas recognize Israel, as have other Arab states as The Saint pointed out. Im not saying they would agree with the current boundaries, just the principle of a jewish state.

mick.fr

I see a lot of strange comments here.

Those who are posting stuffs and critisizing Israel, have you ever dealt with muslims?

I am not talking about your Pakistany colleague at work who shaves everyday, I am talking about the real Muslim, the one that think that you cannot wipe your ass with your right hand when you go to the bath room, the one that think that Israel is using dark magic to control the world's economy, the one that think all america, europe, israel should be wiped out, the one that think that the whole world countries should be islamic republics, the one that think he can tell a woman how to wear, to do, to learn, to eat, and have several wifes legally maried, ...

We are talking about war against people who want to alienate the whole world here. We are talking about extermination actions here.

What many of you do not even realise, is that it will never end, until one party or another will be wiped out.
Do you really believe the muslims will sign a treaty? This will never happend.

Muslims do crazy things way behond your wildest imagination, do not believe all the crap on TV, which certainly does not show reality of things.

PeakOutput

Perestroika wrote: »

They're intent being to inflict ultimate punishment on the people of Gaza for their democratic election of Hamas, and to further terrorise the lives of Palestinians.

emm wrong and wrong, their intent being to inflict ultimate punishment and maximimum hardship on people who attack them.

the people of gaza electing a terrorist organisation is merely an interesting side story but one easily explained by their lack of choice in the matter. they are afraid rightly so hamas are the strongest faction and therefore they win the election on the grounds they are best equipped to protect them which they are. they are also determined to do everything in their power to hurt israel

Why not. You're so vocal in support of it, you obviously don't mind seeing the results of it.

images dont affect me in that i dont allow them to blur my view of the facts. if you think that makes me somehow a bad person then so be it. if you want some really hard hitting images go here http://www.tomstoddart.com/iwitness.html

Have you lived through a war? Experienced it? Want to go to Gaza and voice your support?

my support for peace? sure if i thought it would make a difference. if i thought that i wouldnt be automatically labelled as a jew lover and possibly seriously hurt. id also go to israel if i thought i wouldnt be labeled simply as a muslim apologist.

people dont seem to be getting this in general neither side is worse or better than the other. however if i had to choose israel or hamas to win outright id choose israel. if the choice was palestine gets what it wants israel gets what it wants and hamas dissapears id choose that one

The Saint

mick.fr wrote: »

I see a lot of strange comments here.

Those who are posting stuffs and critisizing Israel, have you ever dealt with muslims?

I am not talking about your Pakistany colleague at work who shaves everyday, I am talking about the real Muslim, the one that think that you cannot wipe your ass with your right hand when you go to the bath room, the one that think that Israel is using dark magic to control the world's economy, the one that think all america, europe, israel should be wiped out, the one that think that the whole world countries should be islamic republics, the one that think he can tell a woman how to wear, to do, to learn, to eat, and have several wifes legally maried, ...

We are talking about war against people who want to alienate the whole world here. We are talking about extermination actions here.

What many of you do not even realise, is that it will never end, until one party or another will be wiped out.
Do you really believe the muslims will sign a treaty? This will never happend.

Muslims do crazy things way behond your wildest imagination, do not believe all the crap on TV, which certainly does not show reality of things.

Nice buddy. Not even going to bother with this as pretty much all points are beyond idiotic. I suggest you read some of th previous pages with facts before coming out with completely non-sensical posts.

turgon

mick.fr wrote: »

I see a lot of strange comments here.

Hardly any as strange as yours, in what was my opinion blatent stereotypical remarks of the Muslim people and by extension racism. How can you have an objective view of anything when you judge group of people like that?

BTW Im sure the people you describe are a) in a small majority or b) grossly unable to affect their desires