Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Options
1…1314161819…126

Comments

  • Options
    #452
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Could it have been that the opposition were using the university for military purposes?
    It could. And at least until very recently, it was. In February 2007 Fatah officials announced they found over 1000 Qassam rockets inside the university as well as grenade launchers and equipment to make rockets. They also announced that they found seven military trainers working inside the university, including a general from the Irianian Revolutionary Guards and said that the place was being used as a Hamas military training ground. Fatah, as you are aware, is the party currently in government in the Palestine state so it didn't come from the Israelis.

    Of course, Ismail Haniyeh is the guy in de facto control of Gaza, Mahmoud Abbas may be the president but when his guys raided the Islamic University they were effectively invading Haniyeh's spot. Haniyeh is the sort-of incumbent Hamas prime minister and rules his own patch. No love lost between either Haniyeh and Abbas or Hamas and Abbas.


  • Options
    #453
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    of course they are targets its war, in war you hate your enemy and will do whatever it takes to win, it dosnt make it right it just makes it war. you are trying to rationalise the irrational that will never work.

    however there is always a reason for war (which can also be irrational like one warlords pure lust for power, this is simply solved unfortunately the reason in this region is not so simple) and its that reason that is important. not the headline grabbing propagandising of one side or the other

    anyway i said im done its been a fun debate ill do my level best not to join in anymore and let the real politics guys fight it out

    Haha... So it's ok to target civilians. Thats grand. Thats your understanding of war, good luck with it.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    A very definitive statement. And you know this with such certainty how, exactly? I'm not making a definitive statement either way, since I'm not privy to the Islamic University's security cameras, and neither am I included in the IAF's targetting process.

    I do note that apparently the Science building was the only one to get hit. If you're going to go making explosives, that would certainly be the one to do it in.

    NTM

    The onus is on them to provide the evidence. You check out the quotes online from different professors about this, they have all categorically denied any wrong doing. No justification.


  • Options
    #454
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Perestroika wrote: »
    Yes they left, but they turned it into a prison, with their small incursions, denial of basic supplies, regular switching off of electricity and water.
    The siege intensified up until the end of the ceasefire. They brought it to an end.

    Exactly!

    Don't get me wrong, there is no excuse for Hamas's attacks on civilians, but as we can see Israel is no more serious about peace then they are. Israel's punishment of the entire Gaza strip, is simply wrong and there is no excuse for it either and the fact so many seem to forget the siege makes no sense imho.

    Both sides need to be treated the same by the International community. If there too one sided for either side, there will never be peace.


  • Options
    #455
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    wes wrote: »
    Exactly!

    Don't get me wrong, there is no excuse for Hamas's attacks on civilians, but as we can see Israel is no more serious about peace then they are. Israel's punishment of the entire Gaza strip, is simply wrong and there is no excuse for it either and the fact so many seem to forget the siege makes no sense imho.

    Both sides need to be treated the same by the International community. If there too one sided for either side, there will never be peace.

    Israel officially came out today and said, "Don't even speak about peace at this moment."


  • Options
    #456
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    sceptre wrote: »
    It could. And at least until very recently, it was. In February 2007 Fatah officials announced they found over 1000 Qassam rockets inside the university as well as grenade launchers and equipment to make rockets. They also announced that they found seven military trainers working inside the university, including a general from the Irianian Revolutionary Guards and said that the place was being used as a Hamas military training ground.

    .

    I know many Universities that research military products for the US & British military. If Hamas find a University that researches for the Israeli military, does that make it a legitimate target?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #457
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Perestroika wrote: »
    Israel officially came out today and said, "Don't even speak about peace at this moment."

    Yeah, I heard that. My point is that they were never interested in peace to begin with.


  • Options
    #458
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    of course they are targets its war, in war you hate your enemy and will do whatever it takes to win, it dosnt make it right it just makes it war. you are trying to rationalise the irrational that will never work.

    Yet you support the irrational. As shown in this thread, there will always be folk who support the slaughter of innocents to further their own aims.


  • Options
    #459
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    This is a fair appraisal of the situation. For anybody who is confused about the situation or thinks they might misunderstand it, read it. It's far removed from the official narrative you'll be given on Sky and BBC.

    http://tinyurl.ie/382

    The most important point is this:

    "Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms."


  • Options
    #460
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Yet you support the irrational. As shown in this thread, there will always be folk who support the slaughter of innocents to further their own aims.

    as hard as i find it to say things you are clearly completely unable to read

    this thread should be merged with the after hours thread tbh im sure im just as guilty but besides a few well thought out intelligent comments its all just deliberate misquoting and circular arguments going nowhere. what a waste of my evening :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #461
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    I know many Universities that research military products for the US & British military. If Hamas find a University that researches for the Israeli military, does that make it a legitimate target?
    You're deliberately glossing over the thing about the elected Palestinian government finding 1000 unauthorised-by-them rockets that they didn't know about in a university in their country, right? In case it wasn't deliberate, this wasn't "research", even for their government, this was building secret rockets (as well as the grenade launchers) in the building for someone that wasn't the government - theirs or a foreign one.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #462
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    as hard as i find it to say things you are clearly completely unable to read

    this thread should be merged with the after hours thread tbh im sure im just as guilty but besides a few well thought out intelligent comments its all just deliberate misquoting and circular arguments going nowhere. what a waste of my evening :rolleyes:

    I suggest you remain in after hours then, would facilitate your empty arguments.
    sceptre wrote: »
    You're deliberately glossing over the thing about the elected Palestinian government finding 1000 unauthorised-by-them rockets that they didn't know about in a university in their country, right? In case it wasn't deliberate, this wasn't "research", even for their government, this was building secret rockets (as well as the grenade launchers) in the building for someone that wasn't the government - theirs or a foreign one.

    So that makes it a legitimate target? (For something that happened before?)
    Do you have a source?
    And the fact that this is from Fatah doesn't make it any more credible than it would be from the Israelis. Israeli puppets is all they are.


  • Options
    #463
    IRISH RAIL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭IRISH RAIL


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Yet you support the irrational. As shown in this thread, there will always be folk who support the slaughter of innocents to further their own aims.

    Just like the hamas terrorist supporters on this page who refuse to acknowledge (1) they are terrorists (2) they have done wrong but can only answer with "whataboutery" (3) only hamas have been targeted.

    they are quick to try and point out the university full of professors and innocent students. well its not full of anyone at one in the morning except hamas operatives.
    but Im sure you will label that as propoganda from the zionists and all palestinians are targeted and if I say fact at the end of my post it makes it true, and all my figures and quotes from palestinian media are right and yours from Israeli media are lies,and they cut off the fuel but dont mention it was because Hamas attacked the depot where they store and load the fuel into trucks killing two people
    but hey that was Israels fault right :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #464
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    they are quick to try and point out the university full of professors and innocent students. well its not full of anyone at one in the morning except hamas operatives

    Aye you just take Israels word for that, instead of politically neutral professors that have been quoted.


  • Options
    #465
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    Jesus1222 wrote: »
    This is a fair appraisal of the situation. For anybody who is confused about the situation or thinks they might misunderstand it, read it. It's far removed from the official narrative you'll be given on Sky and BBC.

    http://tinyurl.ie/382

    The most important point is this:

    "Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms."

    You're wasting your time, these people will conveniently ignore facts that go against their argument.


  • Options
    #466
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    I tried to get something useful out of this thread, and tried to start some objective rational discussion, but thats got thrown back in my face with all this bickering.

    This discussion is like a symbol of the whole Palestine conflict. So long as ye people refuse to back down from your positions and admit some facts (shock horror: both sides could be wrong!) ye will never get anywhere. Ye will just keep bickering and fighting about who did this and who did that.

    Because while ye are arguing nothing is going to change, and more people will keep on getting mowed down there. And maybe in 10, 20 or god forbid 50 years some kind of permanent peace will be brokered and the penny will finally drop: this could have been done the whole time we had our heads up our own arses. And all we will have to show for it is thicker bloodstained history books and long white lines marking the burial spots of the thousands of people who died - for simply being born on the wrong side of some fictitious line in Palestine.


  • Options
    #467
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Jesus Christ... can the Israel apologists just admit it's a tad disproportionate to kill over three hundred civilians, and more to follow? Seriously? Despite the ins and outs of it, that IS too extreme a measure, isn't it? Can you give up on your Eoghan Harris-esque being-all-hardline-to-sock-it-to-the-hippies stance for even two minutes?

    And again, how would you feel if you were Palestinians? Would you actually be ok with things?

    Please answer my questions instead of ignoring them, as you have done thus far...


  • Options
    #468
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Dudess wrote: »
    just admit it's a tad disproportionate to kill over three hundred civilians, and more to follow? Seriously? Despite the ins and outs of it, that IS too extreme a measure, isn't it?

    Nobody said it wasn't disproportionate. No one said it wasn't extreme.


  • Options
    #469
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #470
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Boston wrote: »
    Nobody said it wasn't disproportionate. No one said it wasn't extreme.
    But that's all a lot of people posting to this thread are saying... yet they get accused of ignoring what has been done on the part of the Palestinians, of supporting terrorists even, or they get the spiel about how Israel has to right to defend itself. All irrelevant - yes, Hamas are also villains but the issue here is: the Israelis have gone too far - miles too far. End of.


  • Options
    #471
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #472
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Yeah, fair enough. It IS only 80...
    Too extreme for a terrorist group that is actively lobbing rockets at civilian targets?
    YES!! Because eh... were 80 Israelis killed?
    If I were among the Palestinians who elected as my government an organization that wants to obliterate the state of Israel by violent force, I would assume that we had it coming.
    No, hang on now. Don't think of yourself as a Palestinian with donegalfella's point of view... actually put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian.


  • Options
    #473
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #474
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    are you for real?

    yes these non peace lovers are the minority however a vocal minority can do everything from affect local politics to genocide if they know what they are doing, which hamas clearly do

    I presume you haven't read my earlier posts:
    The spokesman, Ismail Abu Shanab, said that if Israel agrees to the Saudi plan, which calls for the Jewish state to return to its pre-1967 borders in return for "normal relations" with Arab nations, Hamas will "cease all military activities."

    "That would be satisfactory for all Palestinian military groups to stop and build our state, to be busy in our own affairs, and have good neighborhood with Israelis," he said.
    And from ther hardline end:
    On 25 January 2006, after winning the Palestinian elections, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar gave an interview to Al-Manar TV denouncing foreign demands that Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist.[49] After the establishment of Hamas government, Dr Al-Zahar stated his "dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it...I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land". He also "didn't rule out the possibility of having Jews, Muslims and Christians living under the sovereignty of an Islamic state, adding that the Palestinians never hated the Jews and that only the Israeli occupation was their enemy".[
    Pretty ****ty but nothing about genocide.


  • Options
    #475
    IRISH RAIL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭IRISH RAIL


    Dudess wrote: »
    Yeah, fair enough. It IS only 80...

    YES!! Because eh... were 80 Israelis killed?

    No, hang on now. Don't think of yourself as a Palestinian with donegalfella's point of view... actually put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian.

    heres what paleinians think

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3646924,00.html


  • Options
    #476
    IRISH RAIL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭IRISH RAIL


    The Saint wrote: »
    I presume you haven't read my earlier posts:

    And from ther hardline end:

    Pretty ****ty but nothing about genocide.


    mmm what about this then

    "There is no other solution for the Palestinian problem other than jihad. All the initiatives and international conferences are a waste of time and a futile game." According to the Charter, those against whom jihad is to be directed are the Jews. "The Nazism of the Jews," it says, "does not skip women and children, it scares everyone. They make war against people's livelihood, plunder their moneys and threaten their honor." Hamas seeks to fulfill the Qur'anic scripture which reads: "The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" To view additional quotes from the Hamas Charter, click here.


    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6204


  • Options
    #477
    Keith186
    Registered Users Posts: 3,206 ✭✭✭Keith186


    Unfotunately this is sort of a catch 22 situation.

    Israeli ****ers take their land and oppress them, some people take it into their own hands because they think it's the only way it will work is by violence and the way things are there they have little options. Jews have plenty of money in the American economy and the US feel obliged to support them, if Palestinians where of a Christian faith the Israeli's wouldn't get away with this.

    So the Palestinians are ****ed unless HAMAS stop firing rockets & if you were one of them why would you bother?


  • Options
    #478
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Are you suggesting the killing of 80 civilians is ok?
    Sorry, but don't Palestinians have a choice here? Isn't it they who keep committing terrorist atrocities against Israel?
    "They"? As in, innocent civilians such as small children? Innocent civilians who get treated like dogs day in day out...?


  • Options
    #479
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Options
    #480
    IRISH RAIL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭IRISH RAIL


    and to those who seem to have some delusions its all 1000lb bombs and carpet bombing I suggest you educate yourselves by watching a short video

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051006.html

    didnt see any playgrounds there
    but of course palestinians dont see it like that there quite happy if not proud to fire at schools
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3646829,00.html


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #481
    IRISH RAIL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭IRISH RAIL


    Dudess wrote: »
    But nobody is treating Israelis like second-class citizens. Ordinary Israelis don't have to suffer the indignity of asking some 19-year-old thug soldier for permission to go to a particular place. Government-backed militia aren't bulldozing the homes of ordinary Israelis. And the Israeli retaliations are completely disproportionate, there's no two ways about it.

    you have obiously never been to Israel
    yes they do get stopped by soilders and questioned where they are going they do get searched but the difference is we accept it because we understand why it is done.


Advertisement