1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Permabear · 30-12-2008 12:44pm

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Nodin · 30-12-2008 12:50pm

I referred to the Bedouin as an aside. I refered in detail to the Arab population, introducing material from 3 organisations - one Israeli, one distincly Arab Israeli, and the other the international HRW group. They refute in clear and blunt detail your statements re the treatment of the Arab Israeli population. Now please address the points raised, and stop raising straw men.

Permabear · 30-12-2008 12:56pm

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Permabear · 30-12-2008 1:00pm

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30-12-2008 1:02pm

The score needs to be updated

Nodin · 30-12-2008 1:03pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Bedouins

It would appear you snipped off the bit at the end and binned the rest....It appears any benefits they've received are merely to qualify them for military service, rather than integrate them into society.

”.
http://www.abc.net.au/abccontentsales/s1315110.htm

You also seem to entirely ignore the question of the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza and Arab East Jerusalem and how it affects the palestinian population.

Permabear · 30-12-2008 1:06pm

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Nodin · 30-12-2008 1:06pm

So rather than address independent information that utterly contradicts your statements, you instead grab the first excuse to come to hand and plough on regardless. Thats being utterly dishonest.

You made a claim, with nothing to back it up. I've countered that with valid and reliable facts, and now the balls in your courtt. You can either address the facts, or withdraw the statement. If you are correct, doing the former should be the easiest option. If you're unwilling to attempt to do so, I think that says quite a lot about your faith in your own case...

marco murphy · 30-12-2008 1:09pm

And that just sums up your lack of understanding.

Suff · 30-12-2008 1:09pm

Honestly, does anyone think it's alright for one side to arm and update themselves with modern warfare systems while the other just watchs!!!

Israel is updating itself and so should Syria...as in regarding your link, check the sources at the bottom of the page...enough said!

Nodin · 30-12-2008 1:13pm

Theres nothing random about it. You made a statement. Me saying "You're wrong" is hardly a convincing argument unless backed up by something other than my say so. You yourself seemed quite content to provide a website in messages 471, 491, 498 & 510.......

Nodin · 30-12-2008 1:14pm

Which rather ignores the colonisation attempt in the occupied territories and the treatment of the population therein.....

Permabear · 30-12-2008 1:15pm

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Suff · 30-12-2008 1:23pm

I really think you should read the history of how Israel came to be before making such statments, Please read the following links, they are published by neutral organisations...so you can get a clear view

Jewish Guerrillas in Mandate for Palestine

Jewish Terrorism under the British Mandate

British Mandate of Palestine

extracts: "Terrorist leaders such as Menachim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir
later became Prime Ministers of Israel – their political heirs now forming part of the political
establishment of Israel."

Nodin · 30-12-2008 1:26pm

I pointed out that your statement on the treatment of Israeli Arabs was entirely incorrect. I backed that up. You failed to address it. When I brought it to your attention again, you focussed on the Bedouin, which I'd only mentioned as an aside, and again, did not address the refutation of your statement.

Now you're using my quotation of sources (of which I copied a short extract which I felt summarised the linked article) as a red herring to avoid again getting back to original issue of the treatment of Arab Israelis despite having used outside sources yourself.

Now, off you pop. Answer or withdraw, tis up to you.

Permabear · 30-12-2008 1:27pm

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30-12-2008 1:32pm

lol

Permabear · 30-12-2008 1:34pm

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Nodin · 30-12-2008 1:39pm

More evasion. Your post on Syria was as follows

I suggest that sauce is applied equally to geese of all genders.

Israeli Arabs are treated as second class citizens. They do not enjoy equal treatment by the Israeli state. You've been provided with information regarding this, why are you not reverting to the issue?

Suff · 30-12-2008 1:43pm

I really think you should know this one,...anyway..for the comparison that you have chosen to debate, the difference between the Irish and the Jews were that; the Irish were the one's being oppressed by the British forces, while the Jews on the other hand are the oppressers to the palestinians (taking the land and so on) but the only element that was in their way were the British forces.

Permabear · 30-12-2008 1:46pm

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Permabear · 30-12-2008 1:51pm

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The Saint · 30-12-2008 2:05pm

That is why there would have to be negotiations as the devil isalways in the detail. The Arab initiative calls on a just solution to the refugee problem most of who were expelled and not allowed to return after the conflict in violation of international law. I'd imagine this will entail compensation but largely no right of return even though the are legally entitled to return under international return.

The settlers are there ILLEGALLY under the fourth Geneva Convention and the International Court of Justice in 2004 deemed the settlements to be a violation of international law. People were settled there to create facts on the ground by de facto expanding the borders of Israel. Allowing them to stay legitimizes this illegal action and sets a very bad precident. However I'd imagine what will happen is what was proposed in the Geneva Accords and Israel would be allowed to keep large population centres along the green line, which constitute most of the settler population, in return for an equal amount of land beside the Gaza strip. Jerusalem would be divided.

What, state buys weapons. Never heard of that happening before. So let me see, Syria has no right to defend itself even when Isreali planes have buzzed the presidential palace in Damascus? Let me once again say that Syria has not directly attacked Israel in nearly 36 years. An agreement has already nearly been made. For some reason based on precident and logic I can't see Syria launching an attack on a far more powerful and nuclear armed Israel. Could have provided more credible source.

Nodin · 30-12-2008 2:06pm

That your statements

and others of that ilk are not in accordance with reality on the ground within Israel.

Suff · 30-12-2008 2:13pm

Is this even an answer?, I thought you might put a little more effort into it!
I seriously doubt that you have even bothred to read the links I have posted...do read and research on the topic of the ways and methods used to etablish the jewish state and the events that took place, then you can make your own mind.

Suff · 30-12-2008 2:23pm

Complete extract with sources:

What was the British Mandate in Palestine?

Inaugurated in 1920 and ending in 1947, the British Mandate for Palestine was the product of 1) British political ambitions to replace the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East, 2) Britain’s promises of colonial control to the French in the region, and 3) conflicting British promises of self-determination to the Arabs and Jewish statehood for Zionists. The British ruled Palestine under the League of Nations Mandate which followed Britain’s Balfour Declaration of 1917, whose unilateral principle was “the establishment
of a national home for the Jewish people,” in Biblical Palestine.1

What was the intent of Jewish violence under the British Mandate?

In the 11 years leading up to the creation of the state of Israel in Palestine in 1948, Zionist extremists who lived in the territory of Palestine under the British Mandate used terrorism as a military strategy to accelerate the establishment of an independent Jewish state. Their violence was directed against the British authorities who governed Palestine and against the Palestinian indigenous population throughout Palestine. Over 57 violent attacks were carried out by Zionist terrorist groups (e.g. Haganah, Lehi, Irgun
– ultra-nationalist groups from the far right wing of the Revisionist Zionist movement) killing over 5,000 Palestinians and dozens of British.2 While Zionist terrorist groups assassinated UN personnel, murdered British officers and attacked British military headquarters to overthrow the Mandate, they terrorized Palestinian inhabitants in order to provoke mass flight, displacement and migration.3

Who were these Zionist terrorist groups? Who did they target?

Prominent Zionist Terrorist Groups during the Mandate period included:

The Irgun (Etzel): Known as the National Military Organization and the Military sector of the Revisionist movement, the Irgun stated that “political violence and terrorism” were “legitimate tools in the Jewish national struggle for the Land of Israel.” Their attacks included:

• Al-Quds massacre, December 1937: Member of the Irgun hurled a hand grenade at themarketplace near al-Quds mosque, killing and injuring dozens.
• Haifa massacre, March 1938: Members of the Irgun and Lehi gang throw grenades at Haifa market, killing 18, and injuring 38.
• Haifa massacre, July 1938: The Irgun explodes booby trapped vehicles in Haifa market, killing 21 and injuring 52.
• Balad El-Sheik Village Attack, June 1939: This Palestinian village was attacked by members of the Haganah, the Main Jewish Defense. Five villagers were kidnapped and murdered.
• King David Hotel Bombing, July 1946: Led by Menachem Begin, the Irgun planned and carried out the bombing of the King David Hotel, the British military headquarters in Jerusalem in July 1946 in order to destroy documents proving the terrorist campaigns of Zionist groups.
The attack killed 28 Britons, 17 Jews, 41 Palestinians and 5 others for a total of 91 victims.
• Attack on the British Officers’ Club at Goldschmidt House, March 1947: This Jerusalem attack killed 17 British military and intelligence officers.
• Kidnapping and murder of British Soldiers, July 1947: This attack which led to the murder of two British sergeants in Netanya was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Very soon afterward, the British abandoned the British Mandate, turning Palestine over to the UN.
• Bombing of the Jerusalem Railway Station, October 1947: The Irgun bombed the Jerusalem Railway Station in addition to mining roads and attacking army vehicles.

The Stern Gang: Founded by Avraham Stern in 1939, the Stern Gang was an eccentric group which even sought contact with the Nazis in order to subvert British control in the Middle East. Under Stern, the group conducted robberies and attempted assassinations against the British. Stern is also noted for his “Eighteen Principles of National Renewal,” which articulated an expansionist mandate of Zionism, claiming a Jewish state from the Nile in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq. 4

The Lehi: After the British assassinated Stern in 1942, his followers regrouped as an underground movement called the Lehi, acronym for Fighters for the Freedom of Israel:

• Assassination of Lord Moyne, November 1944: Assassinated in Cairo, Egypt, Lord Moyne was the highest ranking British government representative in the Middle East at the time. The Lehi targeted him because of his support for a Middle Eastern Arab Federation.
• Cairo-Haifa Train Bombings, Early 1948: A few months before the 1948 Israeli-Arab war, the Cairo-Haifa train was bombed several times, attacks claimed by or attributed to the Lehi. An attack in February killed 28 British soldiers, and wounded 35 more. An attack in March killed 40 civilians, and wounded 60 more.
• Deir Yassin Massacre, April 1948: Commandos of Lehi and Irgun headed by Menachim Begin attacked Deir Yassin, a village of 700 Palestinians, ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers.5 The Master Mind behind the Deir Yassin massacre, Begin justified the attack in his book The Revolt, Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.6

• Assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, September, 1948: Count Bernadotte, a UN Peace mediator who had come to the Middle East 1948 to modify the Palestine partition plan in an effort to resolve Arab-Jewish disputes, was also assassinated by the group.
• A Legacy of Assassinations: More than any other Jewish terrorist group, Lehi was known for using assassinations as a terror mechanism, even using them against Jews they accused of being traitors. Lehi carried out 42 assassinations, more than twice as many as the Irgun and the Haganah combined. Of its politically-motivated assassinations, over half of them were carried out against other Jews. 7

What happened to these terror groups following the establishment of
Israel?

A building block of Israel’s political perspective and statehood program, most Zionist terrorist groups transitioned from underground terrorist groups to political mainstreams parties rapidly with the founding of Israel in May, 1948. (Note, however, that some groups continued to operate even after May, 1948, e.g. assassination of Count Bernadotte in September, 1948 as mentioned above.) Menachim Begin transformed the Irgun into a political party called Herut. The Lehi became the Moledet party which today continues to openly advocate the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza,
territories now occupied by Israel. Paradoxically, terrorist leaders Menachim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir later became Prime Ministers of Israel – their political heirs now forming part of the political establishment of Israel.

Sources:
1 Cohen, Michael J. The origins and Evolution of the Arab-Zionist Conflict, University of California Press, 1987.; Also see
http://www.palestinecenter.org/palestine/britishmandate.html
2 http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Chapter04_1of2.htm, accessed March, 2007
3 Chomsky, Noam, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens.
4 Amichal Yevin, Ada, In purple: the life of Yair-Abraham Stern, 1986, Tel Aviv: Hadar Publishing House, p. 316 (Hebrew) See
also http://www.saveisrael.com/stern/saveisraelstern.htm
5 See http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=341600202419569830
6 Begin, Menachim, The Revolt.
7 Ben-Yehuda, N., Political Assassinations by Jews (State University of New York, 1993), p. 397

Permabear · 30-12-2008 2:33pm

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Permabear · 30-12-2008 2:42pm

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The Saint · 30-12-2008 2:47pm

Women were granted the right to vote on a universal and equal basis in:

Lebanon in 1952, Syria (to vote) in 1949 (Restrictions or conditions lifted) in 1953, Egypt in 1956, Tunisia in 1959 , Mauritania in 1961, Algeria in 1962, Morocco in 1963, Libya and Sudan in 1964, Yemen (Partly) in 1967 (full right) in 1970, Bahrain in 1973, Jordan in 1974, Iraq (Full right) 1980, Oman (Partly) in 1994 and (Fully granted) 2003 and Kuwait in 2005.

Nodin · 30-12-2008 2:47pm

I was unaware we were on some derivative of "where in the world".

As any reply is anecdotal, why ask the question? Do I now get to ask have you ever been in Syria? Is that "different"?

Why do so many organisations both within and outside Israel dispute that?
Why is it they can present so many cases where there is clearly discrimination in terms of allocation of resources, equality before the law etc? Are they lying?

Even the US state department states that theres discrimination.....
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm
What evidence do you have that there is no widespread institutional discrimination against them?

And I might add that the activity of Arab states has no bearing whatsoever on the veracity or otherwise of your position in this instance.

1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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