1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Rather ignoring the occupation, and the fact that Likud was ahead of Olmerts party in the polls for the Febuary election.

nesf

If people cannot remain civil, this thread will be locked. Bans will follow for any future transgressions of this sort on this thread. You have been warned, etc.

Suff

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm not sure you do, taking your comments in prospective.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was illegitimate in every step it was conducted.
here's a UN document for you own perusal...

donegalfella wrote: »

But the modern state of France was shaped largely by a revolution that involved cutting off people's heads. Does that make France a terrorist organization?

Yet again, ...the French did not occupy/steal/colonise a land and oppressed its rightful people to establish the republic of France!!!...are you getting the point here at all ???

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

nesf

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Name calling, veiled insults aimed at other users and similar.

Akrasia

The Saint wrote: »

Women were granted the right to vote on a universal and equal basis in:

Lebanon in 1952, Syria (to vote) in 1949 (Restrictions or conditions lifted) in 1953, Egypt in 1956, Tunisia in 1959 , Mauritania in 1961, Algeria in 1962, Morocco in 1963, Libya and Sudan in 1964, Yemen (Partly) in 1967 (full right) in 1970, Bahrain in 1973, Jordan in 1974, Iraq (Full right) 1980, Oman (Partly) in 1994 and (Fully granted) 2003 and Kuwait in 2005.

I notice Donegalfella ignored this post, how interesting.

I doubt he will refrain from using the 'Israel is the only democracy in the middle east' propaganda argument in the future. Facts are so inconvenient when they get in the way of a good prejudice

The Saint

Akrasia wrote: »

I notice Donegalfella ignored this post, how interesting.

I doubt he will refrain from using the 'Israel is the only democracy in the middle east' propaganda argument in the future. Facts are so inconvenient when they get in the way of a good prejudice

Well I was just answering a specific point. I would not however call most of these countries democracies but it would seem that women have equal voting rights to men and that was the question asked.

Nodin

The Saint wrote: »

Well I was just answering a specific point. I would not however call most of these countries democracies but it would seem that women have equal voting rights to men and that was the question asked.

Actually even were no state in the middle east to allow women or men without beards the vote, it really has no bearing on how Israel treats its arab citizens, but this is a point that seems to be hard to get across.

Similarily it seems difficult to get anyone to address the root cause of much of this - the occupation.

munchester29

Suff wrote: »

It was illegitimate in every step it was conducted.

Israel was founded according to a UN resolution. Basically all the countries in the Middle East were artificially created by the world powers and the UN, including Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.

Suff wrote: »

Yet again, ...the French did not occupy/steal/colonise a land and oppressed its rightful people to establish the republic of France!!!...are you getting the point here at all ???

The Israelis did nothing of the kind either – they were very happy with what they received in 1948. Unfortunately for everyone in the world, the Arabs were not content with the UN resolution which established the state of Israel, and they attacked the newly formed country. This resulted in refugees and occupied territories.

Besides, the Palestinians can’t be considered the rightful owners of Israel for two main reasons:
1. Of all nations and recognized groups of people still living today, the Jews were in Israel first according to all written accounts.
2. Most of the Palestinians in Israel are immigrant themselves, who came to Israel in their thousands once the Jews started offering work in cultivating and developing the land (1850 onwards).
Before the Jews began to re-cultivate the land in the mid 19th century, Israel was mostly unpopulated (there are enough accounts from travellers such as Mark Twain).

Most Arab countries now realize (if they admit it openly or not) that Israel is there to stay, and act accordingly. That is why Israel hasn’t fought a war with a neighbouring Arab country since 1973 – they were simply never attacked by them.

Israel does fight terrorist groups that attack its citizens, even if they are terrorist groups who control whole populations (Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza).

If Hamas stop their violence, and seriously negotiate peace, Israel will never break that peace as long as the other side upholds it.

That will never happen while Hamas has the power, because HAMAS DOESN’T WANT PEACE, and no one can believe anything their official representatives say.
For example, try to remember when was the last time you heard a Palestinian admit any of the following:
Pearls of wisdom from the Hamas charter (with links at the end for the non believers):

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)"

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Links:
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/...s/charter.html

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

Similarily it seems difficult to get anyone to address the root cause of much of this - the occupation.

No, the root of the problem is that the palestinians keep attacking the Israelis.
The reason for these attacks has been the same since 1948 - they don't want a two country solution, and they don't want to co exist peacfully with Israel.
all they want is everything.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Besides, the Palestinians can’t be considered the rightful owners of Israel for two main reasons:
1. Of all nations and recognized groups of people still living today, the Jews were in Israel first according to all written accounts.
2. Most of the Palestinians in Israel are immigrant themselves, who came to Israel in their thousands once the Jews started offering work in cultivating and developing the land (1850 onwards).
Before the Jews began to re-cultivate the land in the mid 19th century, Israel was mostly unpopulated (there are enough accounts from travellers such as Mark Twain).

1 There has never been a homogenous Jewish state. The only account that states there was is the Bible.

2 The idea of "most of the Palestinians" being immgrants comes from various Kahanist Pamphlets and Joan Peters now discredited "From Time Immemorial" written in the early 80's.

3 The Mark Twain quote has been taken entirely out of context. He says much the same about Greece, yet nobody suggests Greece was empty.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel was founded according to a UN resolution. Basically all the countries in the Middle East were artificially created by the world powers and the UN, including Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.




The Israelis did nothing of the kind either – they were very happy with what they received in 1948. Unfortunately for everyone in the world, the Arabs were not content with the UN resolution which established the state of Israel, and they attacked the newly formed country. This resulted in refugees and occupied territories.

Besides, the Palestinians can’t be considered the rightful owners of Israel for two main reasons:
1. Of all nations and recognized groups of people still living today, the Jews were in Israel first according to all written accounts.
2. Most of the Palestinians in Israel are immigrant themselves, who came to Israel in their thousands once the Jews started offering work in cultivating and developing the land (1850 onwards).
Before the Jews began to re-cultivate the land in the mid 19th century, Israel was mostly unpopulated (there are enough accounts from travellers such as Mark Twain).

Most Arab countries now realize (if they admit it openly or not) that Israel is there to stay, and act accordingly. That is why Israel hasn’t fought a war with a neighbouring Arab country since 1973 – they were simply never attacked by them.

Come on. You con't expect to be taken seriously when you come out with complete nonsense like this. As has been said, all of this has long been discredited. It's not hard to find demographics from the region prior to 1948.


Years Jews Christians Muslims Total
1533-1539 5 6 145 157
1690-1691 2 11 219 232
1800 7 22 246 275
1890 43 57 432 532
1914 94 70 525 689
1922 84 71 589 752
1931 175 89 760 1,033
1947 630 143 1,181 1,970

in 1000's


So it would seem that the rate of immigration was more intense on the Jewish side rather than the Arab side which could mostly be explained by natural growth.

According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews.

Maybe do some real research before you post unsubstantiated and long debunked information.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What relevance has that?

quad_red

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants.

Both sides are guilty using the above definition.

wes

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Doesn't change the fact that they are 2nd class citizens. In fact all you have proved is that they want to stay in there homes, which they have lived in for centuries.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

From same article wrote:

The release of the poll coincided with celebrations, accompanied by widespread Israeli Arab boycotts, of the 60th anniversary of the state's declaration of independence.

Israeli Arab MKs cited widespread discrimination as the cause of the boycotts. At the same time, MK Limor Livnat (Likud) proposed that the Knesset remove Arabic from its list of the country's official primary languages.

I'd say it still doesnt prove that theres no discrimination in Israel. As Afro-americans fought for their country when in some parts they'd be lynched for wearing a uniform, treatment is no guide to patriotism. If anything its a comment on the short sightedness of the Israel body politic not to do more to accept these people into their society.

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

1 There has never been a homogenous Jewish state. The only account that states there was is the Bible.

Sorry, but you are totally wrong there.
There is a staggering amount of archaeological evidence, including documents dating to Roman times (how about that famous victory arc in Rome that depicts the victory over the Jews?)

Nodin wrote: »

2 The idea of "most of the Palestinians" being immgrants comes from various Kahanist Pamphlets and Joan Peters now discredited "From Time Immemorial" written in the early 80's.

Haven’t read that one – I’ll take your word for it.
It still doesn’t negate the point that Jews were there first in any case.

Nodin wrote: »

3 The Mark Twain quote has been taken entirely out of context. He says much the same about Greece, yet nobody suggests Greece was empty.

I wasn’t suggesting the country was empty. None of the Middle Eastern countries were empty – there were simply no countries to speak of.
Most of the Arabs in the Israel area were nomadic tribes who moved from place to place, and since there were no borders they would be in Israel on one month and on the next they could be in Syria.
So, you might as well call the Palestinians Syrians or Jordanians or whatever you want – it’s meaningless since none of these countries existed at the time – they were all artificially created by the world powers & the UN, same way as Israel was.

Frankie Lee

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

From the greater middle east, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Algeria, Tunisia, and also elections take place in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

munchester29

The Saint wrote: »

Come on. You con't expect to be taken seriously when you come out with complete nonsense like this. As has been said, all of this has long been discredited. It's not hard to find demographics from the region prior to 1948.


Years Jews Christians Muslims Total
1533-1539 5 6 145 157
1690-1691 2 11 219 232
1800 7 22 246 275
1890 43 57 432 532
1914 94 70 525 689
1922 84 71 589 752
1931 175 89 760 1,033
1947 630 143 1,181 1,970

in 1000's


So it would seem that the rate of immigration was more intense on the Jewish side rather than the Arab side which could mostly be explained by natural growth.



Maybe do some real research before you post unsubstantiated and long debunked information.

I haven't seen these figures, so assuming these come from a valid source I'll agree with you that there were Arabs in Israel prior to the 19th century. Good thing these figures also show that there were Jews in Israel also...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ejmaztec

Referring to Israel as a democracy is laughable. They evicted the opposition voters en masse and, as I understand it, they refuse to allow the evicted or their descendants back in, as the "new" arrivals would become the majority.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Sorry, but you are totally wrong there.
There is a staggering amount of archaeological evidence, including documents dating to Roman times (how about that famous victory arc in Rome that depicts the victory over the Jews?).

That shows a Jewish only state? Nope.

munchester29 wrote: »

Haven’t read that one – I’ll take your word for it.
It still doesn’t negate the point that Jews were there first in any case. ?).

A number of groups evolved there simultaneously.

munchester29 wrote: »

I wasn’t suggesting the country was empty. None of the Middle Eastern countries were empty – there were simply no countries to speak of.
.

There were countries there, others were provinces of the Ottoman Empire. That doesn't change the fact that there have been non-Jews living there for as long as Jews.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

I wasn’t suggesting the country was empty. None of the Middle Eastern countries were empty – there were simply no countries to speak of.
Most of the Arabs in the Israel area were nomadic tribes who moved from place to place, and since there were no borders they would be in Israel on one month and on the next they could be in Syria.
So, you might as well call the Palestinians Syrians or Jordanians or whatever you want – it’s meaningless since none of these countries existed at the time – they were all artificially created by the world powers & the UN, same way as Israel was.

There was a Palestinians state that existed under the Ottomans. There were also other states that existed under the Ottomans. Simply put the old Zionist lie that there no Palestinians state has long been debunked.

For a good source on this, the following book is good:
Palestine: A personal history, by Karl Sabbagh

dlofnep

munchester29 wrote: »

I wasn’t suggesting the country was empty. None of the Middle Eastern countries were empty – there were simply no countries to speak of.
Most of the Arabs in the Israel area were nomadic tribes who moved from place to place, and since there were no borders they would be in Israel on one month and on the next they could be in Syria.
So, you might as well call the Palestinians Syrians or Jordanians or whatever you want – it’s meaningless since none of these countries existed at the time – they were all artificially created by the world powers & the UN, same way as Israel was.

How revisionist of you. Many Palestinian's were farmers, and their land was conviscated - displacing them. The notion that they were all nomadic is laughable, and furthermore - false.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

Sorry, but you are totally wrong there.
There is a staggering amount of archaeological evidence, including documents dating to Roman times (how about that famous victory arc in Rome that depicts the victory over the Jews?)

Haven’t read that one – I’ll take your word for it.
It still doesn’t negate the point that Jews were there first in any case.

Um there's been people there from 18,000 years ago so to say the Jews were there first long before Judaism ever existed is just false. There have been many other different population living in the region before the Jews

munchester29 wrote: »

I wasn’t suggesting the country was empty. None of the Middle Eastern countries were empty – there were simply no countries to speak of.
Most of the Arabs in the Israel area were nomadic tribes who moved from place to place, and since there were no borders they would be in Israel on one month and on the next they could be in Syria.
So, you might as well call the Palestinians Syrians or Jordanians or whatever you want – it’s meaningless since none of these countries existed at the time – they were all artificially created by the world powers & the UN, same way as Israel was.

Well according to this many lived in towns and most were involved in agrculture therefore needing to be settled:

In the middle of the first century of the Ottoman rule, i.e. 1550 CE, Bernard Lewis in a study of Ottoman registers of the early Ottoman Rule of Palestine reports:[162]

From the mass of detail in the registers, it is possible to extract something like a general picture of the economic life of the country in that period. Out of a total population of about 300,000 souls, between a fifth and a quarter lived in the six towns of Jerusalem, Gaza, Safed, Nablus, Ramle, and Hebron. The remainder consisted mainly of peasants, living in villages of varying size, and engaged in agriculture. Their main food-crops were wheat and barley in that order, supplemented by leguminous pulses, olives, fruit, and vegetables. In and around most of the towns there was a considerable number of vineyards, orchards, and vegetable gardens.

munchester29 wrote: »

I haven't seen these figures, so assuming these come from a valid source I'll agree with you that there were Arabs in Israel prior to the 19th century. Good thing these figures also show that there were Jews in Israel also...

No one is stating that there were no Jews in Palestine. They were an indigenous minority.

donegalfella wrote: »

You really have got to be kidding if you think all of the above are "democracies."

Agreed. Most of these states cannot be deemed as democracies even if they hold parliamentary elections due to them essentially being dictatorships where the head of state (executive) is not democratically elected.

turgon

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In the same way the US was supportive of China against the dissenters in Tibet? Or if I remember correct it didnt really go that way..

And if the US's position is indeed founded upon rational and objective thought process, why is there extremely pro-Israel position not echoed in the EU or the UN?

Suff

munchester29 wrote: »

I haven't seen these figures, so assuming these come from a valid source I'll agree with you that there were Arabs in Israel prior to the 19th century. Good thing these figures also show that there were Jews in Israel also...

This points out the problem, most Israel supporters claim that the land was empty and the Jews came to build the land in 1800's.

The people now called Palestinians (Muslims, Christians and Jews) were the descendants of the people who lived there since the land got inhabitants, building small communities, villages and cities. The langauge developed like every langauge does with time, it changed from Aramaic (still spoken in some parts in Syria today) into Neo-Aramaic to Nabataean Aramaic into Proto-Arabic until the people spoke the Arabic langauge we hear today. These people are now called Arabs, regadless of their religion.

Zionism claim being of the jewish faith is being of a race on its own.

There are no attemptts to delete the Jewish existence from old Palestine, but there are attemptts to delete the Arab existence.