1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Permabear

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turgon

donegalfella wrote: »

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Maybe the Europeans have learned from their mistakes in the past.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1230/breaking47.htm

turgon

By the way, I dont doubt the necessity of force against Hamas, and I would not in any way lament their complete destruction. Its just the scale and the fallout of the attacks that I disagree with.

munchester29

Suff wrote: »

There are no attemptts to delete the Jewish existence from old Palestine, but there are attemptts to delete the Arab existence.

Funny, I seem to rememebr the following:
The 1948 war (favorite slogan: "Let's through all the Jews to the sea"), Suicide bombers, exploding buses, exploding malls, shootings, stabbings, and to top it all off, the Hamas charter clearly states that their goal is to free Palestine of all Jews, kill all the Jews, etc.
Hamas is the elected Palestinian ruling body, right?

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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..often over the exact same issues again and again, because they keep getting vetoed. And no matter what way any resolution is worded, or what Israel does, the US vetoes it. Its the same as China or Russia shielding its allies and lackies and letting them carry on regardless. They did it for South Africa and Rhodesia when it suited them, and now they do it for Israel.

turgon

Nodin wrote: »

Its the same as China or Russia shielding its allies and lackies and letting them carry on regardless.

Thats why I went on the schoolboy analogy. They are blatently sheilded by the US.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

the Hamas charter clearly states that their goal is to free Palestine of all Jews, kill all the Jews, etc.
Hamas is the elected Palestinian ruling body, right?

Again you show you're lack or research skills. The Charter does not call on Jews to be killed or to be expelled. In the charter they state that they want to create an Islamic state based in historic Palestine. Not nice but not what you stated. Again you come out with incorrect information.

From the Hamas Charter

Article Thirty-One:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

Permabear

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Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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To be honest, if they were to all turn secular tommorrow, I don't see how they could launch a campaign to reclaim the OT without ending up killing Jews. Theres quite a few of them in the IDF, apparently.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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And Israel's charter? Beat up Palestinians. Bomb their children. Conviscate their farms. Create Jewish Settlements to disturb Palestinians, who then conviscate Palestinian households, and when Palestinians try to reclaim them - they are attacked by Israeli soldiers.

The Saint

donegalfella wrote: »

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Jihad means struggle, not necessarly violence. Also even if it was violent struggle it doesn't mean that Jews would be expelled or killed once they achieve their objective of an Islamic state. I was addressing an(other) inaccurate statement from munchester29.

Whether Hamas would abide by their charter or not in such a situation I don't know but such a position will never come about anyway.

Permabear

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Manic Moran

turgon wrote: »

By the way, I dont doubt the necessity of force against Hamas, and I would not in any way lament their complete destruction. Its just the scale and the fallout of the attacks that I disagree with.

How is the one going to be done without the other? The Israelis have certainly tried firing single missiles from helicopters or using targetted bombs etc in the past, with little apparent effect.

This situation is going to get much worse. Radio tells me this morning that Israel is putting out feelers for some form of truce, but that Hamas is ill-inclined to acceed. Either because they're pissed off, or because they're waiting for the Israeli ground assault, where they can have a reasonable chance of shooting back.

If a ground assault does happen, and if Hamas does resist, I strongly doubt the Israeli army is going to take the same 'softly' approach as they did in Lebanon two years ago that led to more trouble than they expected. (You may scoff, but that's exactly what they did. I think people may have forgotten just how violent an army unleashed can actually be and still stay within 'the rules'). It's going to be vicious, it's going to set relations back thirty years, it's going to look bad on TV, and it's going to make the current death toll look like an Egyptian car ferry accident (which is over 1,000).

NTM

munchester29

The Saint wrote: »

Again you show you're lack or research skills. The Charter does not call on Jews to be killed or to be expelled. In the charter they state that they want to create an Islamic state based in historic Palestine. Not nice but not what you stated. Again you come out with incorrect information.

From the Hamas Charter

I think you are the one who needs to sharpen his research skills...
Seems that when you were reading the charter you missed this:
From Article 7:
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

Jesus1222

Manic Moran wrote: »

This situation is going to get much worse. Radio tells me this morning that Israel is putting out feelers for some form of truce, but that Hamas is ill-inclined to acceed. Either because they're pissed off, or because they're waiting for the Israeli ground assault, where they can have a reasonable chance of shooting back.

Commercial US radio?

It's likely that this is a lie. Given that Hamas has sought ceasefires in the past and Israel has refused point blank. A good rule of thumb is to reverse the story completely and you will be closer to the truth. Hamas will seek a ceasefire and Israel will refuse.

If a ground assault does happen, and if Hamas does resist, I strongly doubt the Israeli army is going to take the same 'softly' approach as they did in Lebanon two years ago that led to more trouble than they expected.
NTM

You mean taking over half a country and killing 1,000 civilians? That is "softly, softly"? Compared to what? Nuclear war?

I spoke with Israeli soldiers during the summer (not kids either, experienced and in their late 20s), both of whom fought the Hezbollah that time, both are scared stiff of them, both said it was a very bad time for them personally and the IDF and shook their heads. It was a world away from the West Bank, where they had also served. It was not down to Israeli benevolence that more civilians weren't killed and Israeli plans weren't successful in Lebanon, it was down to Lebanese and Iranian resistance.

The Saint

donegalfella wrote: »

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There are many interpretations of Jihad. To say it means nothing but violent struggle is wrong although it is an aspect of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

donegalfella wrote: »

Yes, right. Like other Islamic states have proven themselves to be so hospitable to Jews. How many Jews live in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, etc.?

Can you point out where I stated that this would actually be the case? What I was saying previously was that "I was addressing an(other) inaccurate statement from munchester29.

Whether Hamas would abide by their charter or not in such a situation I don't know but such a position will never come about anyway."

marco murphy

donegalfella wrote: »

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Lack of understanding of Jihad.
I suggest you email some Islamic body in Ireland to get an answer.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

I think you are the one who needs to sharpen his research skills...
Seems that when you were reading the charter you missed this:
From Article 7:
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

You're taking a quote from the Qaran from the Charter. What I posted was what Hamas state in their own words. They are contradictory statement but one is in the words of the organisation itself and the other isn't.

Jesus1222

turgon wrote: »

By the way, I dont doubt the necessity of force against Hamas, and I would not in any way lament their complete destruction. Its just the scale and the fallout of the attacks that I disagree with.

Hamas are a byproduct of the poverty and dispossession of Palestinians. They are not the problem. As long as the poverty and dispossession exists so will Hamas or the next Hamas. Palestinian Islamist groups also received early Israeli protection as they were seen as a counterbalance to the PLO. It was figured Islamists wouldn't be as politically minded as the PLO.

"Israeli Prime minister Ehud Olmert said "Netanyahu established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom".

Permabear

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Permabear

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Jesus1222

donegalfella wrote: »

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Unfortunately you're wrong. Jihad can be a personal or military. Google it!

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Or you've demonstrated your ignorance on the topic. Jihad is divided into various categories; some involve personal struggle against temptation, some to combat injustice and other's to fight for justice in the name of their God.

Not to mention, Jihad various between various muslim groups when defining each individual aspect.

dlofnep

As for Hamas go - Examine their position.

Their land was taken from them in the majority and given to a minority. Their farms have been and still are conviscated. Their people are taunted and attacked by Jewish settlers, who are then protected by Israeli defense forces. Their people are beaten and killed by Israeli defense forces. Their people have no basic human or economic rights. They live in a virtual hell.

What do you expect them to do? Be realistic. Israel is the problem here. You are asking for people to forget about their land, their lost relatives, beatings, murder and collusion with Jewish settlers.

Manic Moran

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Commercial US radio?

Yes. though I note BBC has similar reports.

You mean taking over half a country and killing 1,000 civilians? That is "softly, softly"? Compared to what? Nuclear war?

No. Compared to a real war. After two decades of being led to believe that wars can be carried out with limited casualties due to precision weapons effects against easily identified military targets, there seems to be some bizarre perception of just what 'violence' really is. Israel worked under low-intensity rules of engagement, only moving to the big stuff when it started taking casualties. The town of Bint Jabil is a great case in point. Several city blocks were levelled by Israeli artillery, a fact which is well publicised through photographs. This happened only after a full infantry battalion was soaked up over a long period of time on just three streets, with the Israeli response starting with small arms fire, working up through mortars, all the while taking casualties, and finally saying 'to hell with this' and removing the problem with howitzers firing HE. Think about it. You have an entire infantry battalion in heavy combat in an area three blocks deep by four wide, and it still took over eight hours for the Israelis to decide to call in the big guns. That is not liberal use of firepower.

If you're playing 'real war', you will find that the rules are extremely generous. For example, a civilian house next to or within a reasonable distance of a bridge can be obliterated without any fire coming from it simply because it is a place of military significance. Almost any tall building with good lines of sight is going to be an immediate target for obvious reasons. That is what the destruction of conventional war is, not Lebanon 06.

I spoke with Israeli soldiers during the summer (not kids either, experienced and in their late 20s), both of whom fought the Hezbollah that time, both are scared stiff of them, both said it was a very bad time for them personally and the IDF and shook their heads. It was a world away from the West Bank, where they had also served. It was not down to Israeli benevolence that more civilians weren't killed and Israeli plans weren't successful in Lebanon, it was down to Lebanese and Iranian resistance.

As you can imagine, the Israeli performance in 06 has been analysed by various fairly competent organisations in the matter, one of which I am a member. One particularly significant organisation has been paying a lot of attention to it, namely the Israeli Army, and they have been nice enough to send their more senior officers over to discuss with us what went wrong. You are correct. It was a world away from the occupation duties of the West Bank. They went in with something of that mentality, not a war mentality, not just on the personal level of expectation of the individual soldiers, but of the professional expectations of the more senior staffs setting the rules and running the missions. This matches with the 'softer' approach taken in Lebanon, they simply didn't think that they might need a more conventional military approach and so failed to adjust to the realities on the ground. They were wrong. They know now they were wrong. This is why I don't see them making the same mistake again in a hurry. The Israeli Army is not an organisation of idiots.

Similarly, I have no doubt that Hamas have also been having a look at the 06 conflict and it has probably given them hope. I would not be surprised if they have taken some of Hezbullah's tactics to heart and implemented them themselves. Hey, if it worked against the Israelis once... If this happens, I would fully expect the Israelis to use their revised operations against them. And that means the liberal use of firepower.

NTM

The Saint

donegalfella wrote: »

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You've lost all respect from me with this statement. I have not named called or called anyone an appologist for anything or anyone as it denigrates the arguement. I was addressing a point made that was inaccurate. Instead of addressing it you've reverted to name calling. I have no time for Hamas or religion for that matter but it won't stop me from pointing out factual inaccuracies.

Permabear

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IRISH RAIL

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Hamas are a byproduct of the poverty and dispossession of Palestinians. They are not the problem. ".[/URL]

That statement is just lunacy pure utter tripe and shows how people become victims of terrorist propaganda

Jesus1222

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

That statement is just lunacy pure utter tripe and shows how people become victims of terrorist propaganda

Rather than only making accusations, maybe try to add some argument. Was it you who was warned on this thread before?

Hamas has it's origins as a social and religious groups providing help to ordinary Palestinians. This is a fact, without the dispossession and poverty there would have been no need for them and without Israel no need to attack Israel. This is just a truism and incontrovertibly so in my opinion. Did you not read the statement I provided in a previous post by a senior Israeli?

dlofnep

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

That statement is just lunacy pure utter tripe and shows how people become victims of terrorist propaganda

Explain why Hamas exist.