1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

IRISH RAIL

Perestroika wrote: »

Lack of understanding of Jihad.
I suggest you email some Islamic body in Ireland to get an answer.

heres an Islamic org. answer for it

http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/

seems pretty clear to me

IRISH RAIL

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Rather than only making accusations, maybe try to add some argument. Was it you who was warned on this thread before?

no

turgon

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

That statement is just lunacy pure utter tripe and shows how people become victims of terrorist propaganda

Tell me, Irish Rail, if the Israelis treated the Palestinians like they deserved to be treated would they have become so hostile? I think not. The reason they are fighting Israel is because of a hatred of it, firstly on the principle that it shouldn't be there. However the fact that the Gaza Strip is realistically just the biggest Zoo in the world is probably the main factor.

How can you fail to see this?

I imagine donegalfella's understanding of jihad is quite correct, this is a terrorist organization not some islamist creche.

IRISH RAIL

dlofnep wrote: »

Explain why Hamas exist.

Hamas, as it is currently organized, was founded in December 1987 just when the intifada (uprising) in the occupied territories was starting. The Hamas agenda is based largely upon the principles of Islamic fundamentalism that were gaining momentum throughout the Arab world at that time. The goal of the founders was to become directly involved in the intifada and ultimately gain control of the Palestinian movement and bring it more in line with fundamentalist Islamic thought. Most observers believed that the outbreak of the intifada was a spontaneous event and the Hamas founders were just one of many Palestinian opposition groups, including the PLO, that were vying to gain control of the demonstrations

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/931014-hamas.htm

Mr.Micro

It appears to me that neither Israel or Hamas have learned anything from past experiences. Israel can raze Gaza to the ground but that will only instil more volunteers for Hamas, as more is taken away from people the more hatred and bitterness grows. Hamas knows full well what Israel will do in response and Israel is not at all worried about women, children, the old etc as its past exploits show, nor is Hamas for that matter, so what is Hamas aim? When Israel invaded Lebanon some time ago it had its ass kicked by Hamas and was glad of the eventual ceasefire to save face. Hamas is perhaps ambitous in thinking it can beat the ground forces or at least repeat what happened in Lebanon, a dangerous and futile ploy IMO if proved correct.

IRISH RAIL

turgon wrote: »

Tell me, Irish Rail, if the Israelis treated the Palestinians like they deserved to be treated would they have become so hostile? I think not. The reason they are fighting Israel is because of a hatred of it, firstly on the principle that it shouldn't be there. However the fact that the Gaza Strip is realistically just the biggest Zoo in the world is probably the main factor.

How can you fail to see this?

I imagine donegalfella's understanding of jihad is quite correct, this is a terrorist organization not some islamist creche.

can you make a distinction between ordinary civillians and Hamas /fatah terrorists?

and to your second point
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_are_the_largest_zoos_in_the_world

but dont animals live in zoo`s?

IRISH RAIL

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It appears to me that neither Israel or Hamas have learned anything from past experiences. Israel can raze Gaza to the ground but that will only instil more volunteers for Hamas, as more is taken away from people the more hatred and bitterness grows. Hamas knows full well what Israel will do in response and Israel is not at all worried about women, children, the old etc as its past exploits show, nor is Hamas for that matter, so what is Hamas aim? When Israel invaded Lebanon some time ago it had its ass kicked by Hamas and was glad of the eventual ceasefire to save face. Hamas is perhaps ambitous in thinking it can beat the ground forces or at least repeat what happened in Lebanon, a dangerous and futile ploy IMO if proved correct.

I think you might have meant Hezbollah ?

turgon

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

can you make a distinction between ordinary civillians and Hamas /fatah terrorists?

Yes. And I am sure a lot of these citizens support Hamas in the same way some Irish people supported the IRA.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

and to your second point
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_are_the_largest_zoos_in_the_world

but dont animals live in zoo`s?

Sometimes one lacks motivation to answer these petty little schoolgirl replys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier

Note the start of the second paragraph.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mr.Micro

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I think you might have meant Hezbollah ?

I stand corrected, yes Hezbollah, Hamas in this case thinking they can do the same.

mumhaabu

Israel should invade and occupy Gaza properly before then turning its sights onto the west bank. We need a good proper war.

If Israel done an all out war against Palestine; then the Arab world would rapidly respond and Israel would probably be invaded in the North from Lebanon and Syria, Jordan would probably keep neutral and Egypt would be forced into invading from the East leading to pan Arab-Israeli conflict.

OPEC could then cease all Oil supplies to the West crippling the West which is already in Recession. Saudi Arabia would keep neutral but cut the Oil is responce to the War. Iran would fire long range missiles at Israel and if Libya and Algeria were to join the Conflict with a Naval embargo along with the Egyptian Navy then Israel would be crippled and appeal to Nato and the United States, The situation would then be critical as options would be limited, President Obama would be slow to liberate Israel I feel as America would be in Depression from the Oil crisis and with the troops in Iraq scope would be limited.

The options would be Naval landings from Cyprus and Bombing from Turkey, this would immediatly destabilse Turkey and lead to a rise of Islamicism and lead to Civil War in Turkey, Turkish Cypriot Forces in Northern Cyprus would invade Cyprus and the situation would be instable for the Allies (UK & US Only) to operate. Their would be two option left which would invasion from Saudi Arabia which would topple the Saudi Monarchy.

This would then create a mega ground battle as the US Forces would leave Iraq and invade via Jordan (possibly invading it if it was to side with the Arab League). Indonesia would send supplies and troops to front via the Persian Gulf and the US Army would have to fight straight through Jordan and into Israel with British Marines and tactical bombing helping also. The instability would see Iran invading Iraq and penning the US Troops in along the front at the River Jordan and Pakistani reinforcements following behind and Pakistan would then cross into Afghanistan, India's behaviour would be key to keeping the Subcontinent intact from all out carnage.

There is no way the US could win as they would be pinned in and US troops would desert en masse as they would not fight to save Jews, this along with earthquakes of political upheavels in Washington would see the USA surrender and Islam would conquer the middle east and more than likely finish what Hitler failed to do.

I hope someone makes a Video Game of my visions of WW3

IRISH RAIL

turgon wrote: »

Yes. And I am sure a lot of these citizens support Hamas in the same way some Irish people supported the IRA.



Sometimes one lacks motivation to answer these petty little schoolgirl replys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier

Note the start of the second paragraph.

then you will know what this guy said
Ahmed Shukari, in 1956, testified to the UN, he said: “There’s no such people as Palestinians, they are Arabs, we are not Palestinians. And then 8 years later in 1964, he was the founding chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/1718
http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2007/04/news-in-english.html

and your link (like palestinian terrorist propoganda) doesnt work

turgon

mumhaabu wrote: »

We need a good proper war.

You just failed to mention where the aliens from saturn intervene.

I think we can safely assume that an all out war is really in very few peoples interest.

turgon

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

then you will know what this guy said
Ahmed Shukari, in 1956, testified to the UN, he said: “There’s no such people as Palestinians, they are Arabs, we are not Palestinians. And then 8 years later in 1964, he was the founding chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization

I dont get your point.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

and your link (like palestinian terrorist propoganda) doesnt work

Damn Hamas have taken over Wikipedia too. The West is doomed.

IRISH RAIL

turgon wrote: »

You just failed to mention where the aliens from saturn intervene.

I think we can safely assume that an all out war is really in very few peoples interest.

well no apparantly it would be in the benifit of the palestinian people
well thats what ther government would have you think

But Hamas officials and analysts said Monday that the organization would actually like Israel to launch a ground operation; it hopes this would let it inflict such heavy losses on Israeli tanks and infantry that Israel would flee with its tail between its legs.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051024.html

turgon

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

But Hamas officials and analysts said Monday that the organization would actually like Israel to launch a ground operation; it hopes this would let it inflict such heavy losses on Israeli tanks and infantry that Israel would flee with its tail between its legs.

The same Israeli army that has reserve forces to the tune of over 2 million? They are now going to be beaten in the long run.

ejmaztec

turgon wrote: »

Yes. And I am sure a lot of these citizens support Hamas in the same way some Irish people supported the IRA.

Drawing parallels with the North, I can quite see how violent groups like Hamas and Hezbollah were born. I can imagine the sheer frustration of the dispossessed being ignored by so-called civilised countries. If the UN was anything other than the limp-dick that it is, purely due to the veto, the situation would never have escalated in the way that it has done. It would also have meant that the US would not have been public enemy no. 1 in the eyes of the vast majority of Muslims.

The situation as it is, is incurable.

IRISH RAIL

Tell me, Irish Rail, if the Israelis treated the Palestinians like they deserved to be treated would they have become so hostile?

well that was your question

Ahmed shukari represented the "palestinian people"
he was a fedayeen long before the six day war when Gaza was annexed from Eygpt, he put his forces under the control of Nasser who started a war (along with other arab countries Syria Jordan Iraq Lebannon Kuwait etc)

he lost then and again in `73
seems a trend with palestinians declaring war with Israel

Jesus1222

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fair enough but you originally talked about the word jihad, jihad by itself doesn't necessarily mean war. This is pointless semantics, arguing over a word. If the aim of Hamas is to overthrow Israeli occupation then that's perfectly legitimate. Furthermore, the leaders of Hamas have explicitly stated that they are not detached from reality and would accept a 2 state solution along 1967's borders, despite what their mission statement says.

The Good Friday Agreement was famously called "Sunningdale for slow learners". If an agreement is reached it will be called "UN242 for slow learners" (presuming Israel will at some point allow the word THE to be included in it). The good news is that all sides, from Ehud Olmert to whoever it is in charge of Hamas these days agree on what a fair and lasting agreement (in so far as Palestinians will never return to the homes they were driven from in 1948) could be - 1967 borders give or take. Israel isn't interested in a fair and lasting agreement though, it wants complete and total submission and acceptance of it's West Bank presence. That's what this is about. Not rockets. It's expansionism, the very basis for Israel itself.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Serenity Now!

Jesus1222 wrote: »

That's what this is about. Not rockets. It's expansionism, the very basis for Israel itself.

Way off the mark.

Read Neve Gordon's opinion piece in the Irish Times today. Laid out nice and simple are four glaring reasons behind this offensive by Israel.
Piece can be seen here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1230/1230581467167.html

Beside it is an inferior self-contradictory piece by David Morrison where he says "And there was very little rocket or mortar fire out of Gaza until Israel broke the ceasefire in early November".
Ironic that a ceasefire in the singular eye of the pundit allows for one side to continually fire rockets. By his logic, a ceasefire is only broken when someone gets killed. And this is the Political Spokesman of the IPSC writing!!
Where do they find these people? :rolleyes:

Kingkong

I dont now alot about the politics behind this but seeing the photos and absolute devastation caused by Israel I am in shock.

I would compare Israels attack on Gaza too Hitlers final solution. Im sure back then the resistance were called alot of things including terrorists. If Israel can inflict so much pain on Palestinians and get away with it WWII has not thought the world anything.

IRISH RAIL

turgon wrote: »

The same Israeli army that has reserve forces to the tune of over 2 million? They are now going to be beaten in the long run.

I see your information like palestinian civillian casualties is grossly overestimated
approx 125.000 permanant troops ( including Homefront command )
and 600.000 reservists

thats about 725.000
far cry from your 2 million

IRISH RAIL

Kingkong wrote: »

I dont now alot about the politics behind this but seeing the photos and absolute devastation caused by Israel I am in shock.

I would compare Israels attack on Gaza too Hitlers final solution. Im sure back then the resistance were called alot of things including terrorists. If Israel can inflict so much pain on Palestinians and get away with it WWII has not thought the world anything.

Then I would suggest you research hitlers final solution
also I would suggest not only looking at pictures but reasearching the current situation

Jesus1222

No, the aim of Hamas is to destroy the state of Israel, pure and simple.

And you believe that?

As I said, despite what's in their charter, Hamas has attempted on several occasions to negotiate a long term ceasefire with Israel. Furthermore it's leaders are on record, on many occasions, saying that they are not detached from reality and said, possibly explicitly, that they would accept a 2 state solution based on 242.

The Palestinians could look at the Israel constitution or the existence of Israel itself and find something objectionable enough to not negotiate too I'm sure. But they don't as they are in a desperate situation, so much so that they are desperate for genuine negotiation. By negotiation
I don't mean turning up in George Bush's office, "here's the pen lads" and signing away what's
left of the Palestinian mandate in the West Bank to Israeli settlements and motorways.

Fair enough, this may be a holding position, a propaganda tactic, a sop to their supporters or all of the above. But why not test them on it? If Israel really wants peace, why not go along with what Ehud Olmert himself (read the link) said in very explicit terms (that withdrawing to 1967's borders would guarantee peace and security for Israel in the long term) and accept UN242.

Israel is certainly interested in a settlement—just not one dictated to it by terrorists.

You're wrong, Israel is not interested in a FAIR settlement. It's only interested in a unilateral settlement, which amounts to "if even one Islamist fanatic gets his hands on a single rocket in the densely populated area of the Gaza strip, we'll invade and massacre hundreds". This isn't a settlement.

If it was genuinely interested in a settlement we could have one in 48 hours time, one that would last for hundreds of years. That is no exaggeration. Withdraw to 1967 for peace and security; Hamas agree with this, the PLO agree with this, 80% of Palestinians agree with this, Ehud Olmert agrees with this, the UN agree with this, the Arab states agree with this. Why not do it? Why not do it tomorrow? Everybody agrees.

A Dub in Glasgo

Kingkong wrote: »

I dont now alot about the politics behind this but seeing the photos and absolute devastation caused by Israel I am in shock.

I would compare Israels attack on Gaza too Hitlers final solution. Im sure back then the resistance were called alot of things including terrorists. If Israel can inflict so much pain on Palestinians and get away with it WWII has not thought the world anything.

How can you say such things? Israel has the right to defend it self. It is a righteous fight against oppression. All those kids were terrorists holding a match to the rocket launchers that inflict so much carnage on the Israeli soil!

This is not my view but the view of the apologists of terror

Jesus1222

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Way off the mark.

Wrong. Looking at the big picture it's precisely what it's about. That's what it's always about.

IRISH RAIL

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

How can you say such things? Israel has the right to defend it self. It is a righteous fight against oppression. All those kids were terrorists holding a match to the rocket launchers that inflict so much carnage on the Israeli soil!

This is not my view but the view of the apologists of terror

I do believe anyone who supports the terrorist group hamas and there infastructure and associated ancillarys to be a supporter and apologist to terror

dlofnep

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I see your information like palestinian civillian casualties is grossly overestimated

And what exactly was his figures? UN has documented 1300 Palestinians killed compared to 80 Israelis between 2005-2007. That's not including 2008, which is probably another 500-600. You're looking at at this stage, nearly 2000 Palestinians killed in 3 years compared to perhaps 90-95 Israelis.

That's more than 20 Palestinians dead for every 1 Israeli. Clearly, Israeli life is much more important.

dlofnep

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I do believe anyone who supports the terrorist group hamas and there infastructure and associated ancillarys to be a supporter and apologist to terror

And what about the IDF? They are a terrorist group by every definition of terrorism. Are you an apologist of terror also?