1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

The Saint

A piece on the aid boat that was rammed:

CNN: "The Israelis have put out that it was an accident.... That just did not happen on the boat where I was."

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/12/30/penhaul.lebanon.dignity.ship.cnn?iref=videosearch

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Manic Moran

From the Times. I laughed.



NTM

Holsten

Come on, Barack! You can do it

Cut all ties with Israel!

Throw them to the rest of the middle east!

munchester29

Holsten wrote: »

Come on, Barack! You can do it

Cut all ties with Israel!

Throw them to the rest of the middle east!

I wonder who will be next on the radical Islam's list if it ever happens that Israel is gone from the iddle east.

Anyone thinks Europe is safe? I mean - look at what's been going on with fanatic muslims in the UK & France...

turgon

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I see your information like palestinian civillian casualties is grossly overestimated

Due to the fact that most citizens are conscripted into the Israeli Army, from a country of 7.5 million, how can the reserves number under a million? Wikipedia (sorry but I could find no other source) states 2 million. Manic Moran echoed this point.

The Saint wrote: »

Tell me where in the charter where it states that this is the interpretation of Jihad.

Despite the fact that I am in disagreement with donegalfella over this topic, I must say that any other interpretation of jihad within the context of a national liberation group is fairy tail dreaming. One should not allow the technicalities of language to cloud common sense.

The Saint

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You're compleely missing my point. I'm not saying that their charter is true. It's a semantic arguement based on what the charter says not on the truthfulness of it. Someone said the charter said one thing and I pointed out it didn't. That is all. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Hamas are a wonderful peaceful organization because they are not. They are a terrorist organization and I'd much prefer if they didn't exist. I'm not trying to defend them, I was correcting an inaccurate statement.

LordSutch

How did this all blow up over the Christmas period anwway?

I presume the Israeli's launched an Air Strike for some reason?

As a matter of interest, I heard some Palistinian representitive being interviewed on the Radio the other day & he refused to accept that Rockets were being fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel, although he did accept that "Flying objects" were being thrown into Israel as a response to Israeli aggression :rolleyes:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Frankie Lee

Yes glorified fireworks I believe they are.

vulcan57

dlofnep wrote: »

And what exactly was his figures? UN has documented 1300 Palestinians killed compared to 80 Israelis between 2005-2007. That's not including 2008, which is probably another 500-600. You're looking at at this stage, nearly 2000 Palestinians killed in 3 years compared to perhaps 90-95 Israelis.

And the Israelis are the ones that where retaliating because of the terrorist attacks on Israel. Therefore if it had'nt been for the death of the 90-95 Israelis those 2000 Palistinians would most likely be still alive.

A Dub in Glasgo

vulcan57 wrote: »

And the Israelis are the ones that where retaliating because of the terrorist attacks on Israel. Therefore if it had'nt been for the death of the 90-95 Israelis those 2000 Palistinians would most likely be still alive.

It is OK for the Israelis to retaliate and kill thousands but not OK for others to retaliate and kill up to 100

Dear god, talk about blaming the victims for having the audacity to be living before the Israelis slaughtered them.

sovtek

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Palestinians can elect who they want. But when the people they elect refuse to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, they can't expect things to go entirely swimmingly and accept the obvious reprecussions of that action

NTM

I would expect that Israel has no more right than any other country to exist and definately no more right to exist than any other country that illegally occupies someone elses land for decades.
I would also expect that the occupied would not be expected to state that right as a condition for peace. Ever!

dlofnep

vulcan57 wrote: »

And the Israelis are the ones that where retaliating because of the terrorist attacks on Israel. Therefore if it had'nt been for the death of the 90-95 Israelis those 2000 Palistinians would most likely be still alive.

Israel-Lebanon ring a bell?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

munchester29

sovtek wrote: »

I would expect that Israel has no more right than any other country to exist and definately no more right to exist than any other country that illegally occupies someone elses land for decades.
I would also expect that the occupied would not be expected to state that right as a condition for peace. Ever!

Israel acknowledges the right of the Palestinians for a country.
Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and the Hamas charter still calls for the killing of all the Jews in Israel (Jihad).

So, yes, Hamas is and should be expected to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, and stop the violence if they really want peace.
If they don't do that - well, they are being occupied for a very good reason. If they weren't occupied their viloence would have been much worse.

sovtek

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel acknowledges the right of the Palestinians for a country.

Really? When did that happen?

Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and the Hamas charter still calls for the killing of all the Jews in Israel (Jihad).

Would you expect pre-liberation Poles to assert Germany's right to exist?

So, yes, Hamas is and should be expected to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, and stop the violence if they really want peace.

See below.

If they don't do that - well, they are being occupied for a very good reason. If they weren't occupied their viloence would have been much worse.

Israel's mere existence has been brought about by violence from the outset. It's Israel's violence that created Hamas in the first place.

sovtek

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The Gaza strip is not disputed. It's ordered by UN resolution to return it.

munchester29

sovtek wrote: »

Really? When did that happen?



Would you expect pre-liberation Poles to assert Germany's right to exist?



See below.



Israel's mere existence has been brought about by violence from the outset. It's Israel's violence that created Hamas in the first place.

Israel has stated many times that it acknowledges the rights of the Palestinians for a country.

Pre-liberation poles are nothing like the Palestinians, and Israel is nothing like Germany. The analogy doesn’t hold.

Israel’s existence has been brought about by a UN resolution. Israel’s existence came to be in a very similar fashion to how Syria, Lebanon, Jordan & Saudi Arabia came to be – by world power decisions.

On the other hand, the Palestinian existence has been brought about by violence from the outset.
The Palestinians (together with the rest of the Arab world) attacked the newly created state of Israel in 1948, and by their own actions created the refugee problem and lost the part of Israel which was supposed to be theirs under the UN resolution.

sovtek

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel has stated many times that it acknowledges the rights of the Palestinians for a country.

If you are refering to the once off Road Map...Olmert announced that it was dead many moons ago. No one takes it seriously let alone the Israelis.

Pre-liberation poles are nothing like the Palestinians, and Israel is nothing like Germany. The analogy doesn’t hold.

Israel was created by taking someone else land shortly before it was created and continue(s) to expand by the same such means. Therefore you are correct in that respect.

Israel’s existence has been brought about by a UN resolution. Israel’s existence came to be in a very similar fashion to how Syria, Lebanon, Jordan & Saudi Arabia came to be – by world power decisions.

You are somewhat correct. It was a General Assembly resolution. However the other countries you mentioned didn't immediately seek to expand it's borders by expelling the current population and not allowing them to return and killing a fair few of them.

On the other hand, the Palestinian existence has been brought about by violence from the outset.

The Palestinians (together with the rest of the Arab world) attacked the newly created state of Israel in 1948, and by their own actions created the refugee problem and lost the part of Israel which was supposed to be theirs under the UN resolution.

You are completely departing from reality here!

Nodin

turgon wrote: »

Yes. And I am sure a lot of these citizens support Hamas in the same way some Irish people supported the IRA.

Its interesting to note that Hamas success is due primarily to dissatisfaction with the PLO/Fatah and the corruption of the 'old Guard' now led by Abbas. Unfortunately the reformist candidate within PLO/Fatah was blocked from running against Abbas in the presidential election. Marwan Barghouti was told by the US that should he run and win, they would completely and utterly isolate the palestinians internationally, even more so than had been done to Arafat. He doesn't run, and soon thereafter Hamas are elected. Well done America.

IRISHRAIL wrote:

Ahmed Shukari, in 1956, testified to the UN, he said: “There’s no such people as Palestinians, they are Arabs,

So presumably he's going to have to go back in time and tell this lot they don't exist too....

The first widespread use of "Palestinian" as an endonym to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the local Arabic-speaking population of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I,[7] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

Holsten wrote:

Come on, Barack! You can do it

Cut all ties with Israel!

Throw them to the rest of the middle east!

He's going to do that as soon as he arranges the 'double date' for me with this one and this one. I had a dream of change, so I did, so I did.

Munchester 29 wrote:

Anyone thinks Europe is safe? I mean - look at what's been going on with fanatic muslims in the UK & France

It's never a good time to play the 'scary muslims' card....You seem to be ignoring the root cause of a great deal of Palestinian discontent.

Munchester 29 wrote:

The Palestinians (together with the rest of the Arab world) attacked the newly created state of Israel in 1948, and by their own actions created the refugee problem and lost the part of Israel which was supposed to be theirs under the UN resolution.

Unless they forced the settlers to build the settlements and have been forcing both they and the IDF to treat them like shyte for the last 40 years...I think theres a hole in that plot though.

turgon

I read in the Irish Times this morning that Egypt was telling its troops to abandon the border posts because of the proximity of the Israeli attacks. The likelihood of a full invasion is quite high to be honest. What can it achieve though?

Manic Moran

Israel-Lebanon ring a bell?

Which one?

What can it achieve though?

Depends on how thorough the Israelis are willing to be, and how stupid the Hamas fighters are. I wonder if the assault into Fallujah wouldn't be a suitable analogy: All the insurgents needed to do to defeat the US operation would be to drop their weapons and walk out of the city with the rest of the population, then walk back in again a week or two later. Instead they had some bizarre delusions of grandeur, stood, fought, and died in quadruple-digits. Made life much simpler for the US for a good while after that.

I would wager an Israeli ground incursion would really be reliant on Hamas resistance to help achieve its goals. Makes identifying the opposition much, much easier. Of course, if Hamas does nothing, lets the Israelis in to root around the place for a bit, with the plan of lying low until conditions are better, then they might be worried about 'loss of face,' despite it being the more sensible option militarily.

NTM

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

Unless they forced the settlers to build the settlements and have been forcing both they and the IDF to treat them like shyte for the last 40 years...I think theres a hole in that plot though.

I think Israel is using the settlements as game cards for when actual peace talks begin.
Also, I fail to see why the Israelis should be the only ones keeping their end of the bargain while the Palestinians can do whatever they want.

As for The IDF treatment of Palestinians:
When you have to deal with someone who has been trying to kill you for the last 60 years, you tend to be a bit upset about that and you don’t always treat them with kind words and good natured humour.
That said – the IDF is one of the most moral armies in the world. They go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties – at times paying for this notion with their own soldiers’ lives.
As in any army, you will find all kinds of people there – some are more benevolent than others, some are cruel and nasty.

Mr.Micro

Depends on how thorough the Israelis are willing to be, and how stupid the Hamas fighters are. I wonder if the assault into Fallujah wouldn't be a suitable analogy: All the insurgents needed to do to defeat the US operation would be to drop their weapons and walk out of the city with the rest of the population, then walk back in again a week or two later. Instead they had some bizarre delusions of grandeur, stood, fought, and died in quadruple-digits. Made life much simpler for the US for a good while after that.

IMO Hamas should stay and maybe they will be wiped out for the destruction they have caused by their stupid rocket attacks. Then if they were gone the Palestinians might not be much better off but with Hamas their plight is fatal. Destruction of Gaza for what, some nutters want death and nothing else, so decide to bring it on everyone else. Somebody should tell them there is nothing after death but nothing, and nobody gives a damn about martyrs.

Nodin

turgon wrote: »

I read in the Irish Times this morning that Egypt was telling its troops to abandon the border posts because of the proximity of the Israeli attacks. The likelihood of a full invasion is quite high to be honest. What can it achieve though?

Enough dead Hamas operatives to allow Olmert leave something other than the Lebanese debacle as his legacy, a fait accompli to the new US administration, to defeat Likud in Februarys election, and leaving the more compliant Abbas as the sole negotiating partner, I'd imagine.

Munchester 29 wrote:

I think Israel is using the settlements as game cards for when actual peace talks begin

If we were dealing with military facilities and the like, perhaps. However the settlements are not some inactive card that follows orders, but constituted of thousands of people, many armed and as zealous as their Hamas/Islamic Jihad bretheren. Also, the activity in the West Bank, particularily around Arab East Jerusalem, hints at attempts at de facto annexation more than anything else.

Munchester 29 wrote:

That said – the IDF is one of the most moral armies in the world. They go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties – at times paying for this notion with their own soldiers’ lives.

War and conflict is a brutal business where most notions of mercy and morality effectively go out the window. Whilst a formal army can enforce a level of discipline to curb the worst excesses of its ranks, theres frequently little to chose between either side. The nature of the occupation of the OT is such that it demands a dehumanising of both sides by each other, as who can really occupy and terrorise an equals land, and who can kill some one without first demonising them in their own mind...

I present the following few articles for your reading. Make of them what you will.

link 1

http://www.btselem.org/English/Human_Shields/Index.asp

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846344.html

marco murphy

Also, I fail to see why the Israelis should be the only ones keeping their end of the bargain while the Palestinians can do whatever they want.

Like living in fear while suffering blockading of medical supplies, water and electricity?
Israel is wrong, with or without this recent conflict.

patser grey

Perestroika wrote: »

Like living in fear while suffering blockading of medical supplies, water and electricity?
Israel is wrong, with or without this recent conflict.

Simple, effective and to the point........

Some people here have a distorted view of reality, I dont know if it's ignorance or stupidity but they need to open their eyes and minds, dig a little deeper, see the facts, come to realise whats happening.

Those 3 articles above by Nodin are good examples of reality as their from Israeli and U.S. sources, which are rare.

Manic Moran

Perestroika wrote: »

Like living in fear while suffering blockading of medical supplies, water and electricity?
Israel is wrong, with or without this recent conflict.

No love for Egypt?

NTM

Frankie Lee

Manic Moran wrote: »

No love for Egypt?

NTM

Egypt is equally as complicit in the blockade.