1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Mr.Micro

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Egypt is equally as complicit in the blockade.

If nutters like Hamas are intent on destruction and cause unrest in Gaza no country can really be blamed for keeping a blockade, especially if Hamas could cause destabilization in that country eg Eygpt.

Frankie Lee

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If nutters like Hamas are intent on destruction and cause unrest in Gaza no country can really be blamed for keeping a blockade, especially if Hamas could cause destabilization in that country eg Eygpt.

Its naive of you to write Hamas off as nutters, but you are correct in saying that the Egyptian state is afraid of Hamas, and they are also afraid of a popular uprising in support of Hamas so I think there will be movement from Egypt soon enough on lifting the blockade from their side.

Mr.Micro

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Its naive of you to write Hamas off as nutters, but you are correct in saying that the Egyptian state is afraid of Hamas, and they are also afraid of a popular uprising in support of Hamas so I think there will be movement from Egypt soon enough on lifting the blockade from their side.

I do'nt mean to be glib in calling them nutters. Its just that their tactics do not appear to be rational, as I pointed out in several posts that I made on this thread. Its like stone age man against probably the best equipped fighting machine in the world, and sending a few rockets promoted a predictable response from the Israelis. Only mad men IMO would provoke such a predictable response, as we have seen countless times before from Israel.

Frankie Lee

Fair enough you have a point there ok.

Sand

Israel is wrong, with or without this recent conflict.

Irrelevant. Right, wrong. Totally irrelevant.

1 - Israel exists, and essentially is powerful enough to ensure that it continues to exist despite arguments over if it should exist, what the legalities were in 1948 and so on.

2 - Theres two reactions to this. Undying idealogical fanatical hatred which refuses to recognise the reality of 1 and promises only veangence and blood and tears. Or accepting the reality of 1, and then working from the point of view of improving the quality of Palestinian life and working towards a state using methods that dont involve airstrikes landing on the people you claim to represent.

3- I can see why undying idealogical fanatical hatred is attractive or understandable for people like ourselves who dont pay any consequences for it. Its pure, its just, and we can stay on our high moral horses debating 1948 ad nauseum.

4 - In the meantime, Palestinians are suffering every day for idealogical purity. Where their lives, and the lives of their children are held to be worth less than rhetoric. Arab states which dont suffer the consequences of IDF raids and retaliation fund

5 - Its held by all viewpoints that the Palestinians cannot compete militarily with the IDF. The usual justification for suicide bombers and rockets is that the Palestinians dont have have jets or tanks.

6 - Few seem to take this a step further and argue that because the Palestinians cant compete militarily with IDF, that they shouldnt even try. That they should simply work to improve their peoples lot and use the political and moral force of non-violent protest to pressure the US into removing its unquestioned support for Israel. Currently, Israel is supported without question because Hamas feeds the Israeli viewpoint that they are fighting for their very existence. Faced with non-violent resistance how long could that view thrive with Obama in the presidency?

Frankie Lee

Sand wrote: »

Irrelevant. Right, wrong. Totally irrelevant.

1 - Israel exists, and essentially is powerful enough to ensure that it continues to exist despite arguments over if it should exist, what the legalities were in 1948 and so on.

2 - Theres two reactions to this. Undying idealogical fanatical hatred which refuses to recognise the reality of 1 and promises only veangence and blood and tears. Or accepting the reality of 1, and then working from the point of view of improving the quality of Palestinian life and working towards a state using methods that dont involve airstrikes landing on the people you claim to represent.

3- I can see why undying idealogical fanatical hatred is attractive or understandable for people like ourselves who dont pay any consequences for it. Its pure, its just, and we can stay on our high moral horses debating 1948 ad nauseum.

4 - In the meantime, Palestinians are suffering every day for idealogical purity. Where their lives, and the lives of their children are held to be worth less than rhetoric. Arab states which dont suffer the consequences of IDF raids and retaliation fund

5 - Its held by all viewpoints that the Palestinians cannot compete militarily with the IDF. The usual justification for suicide bombers and rockets is that the Palestinians dont have have jets or tanks.

6 - Few seem to take this a step further and argue that because the Palestinians cant compete militarily with IDF, that they shouldnt even try. That they should simply work to improve their peoples lot and use the political and moral force of non-violent protest to pressure the US into removing its unquestioned support for Israel. Currently, Israel is supported without question because Hamas feeds the Israeli viewpoint that they are fighting for their very existence. Faced with non-violent resistance how long could that view thrive with Obama in the presidency?

If they were faced with non violent resistance Israel would simply massacre the Palestinian population in a similar fashion that Indonesia massacred the East Timorese.
That's my opinion and it is based on the fact that Israel answers to no one and has scant regard for the lives of Arabs.
I still don't condone suicide bombings and disagree with rocket attacks on civilians.

eoin5

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I do'nt mean to be glib in calling them nutters. Its just that their tactics do not appear to be rational, as I pointed out in several posts that I made on this thread. Its like stone age man against probably the best equipped fighting machine in the world, and sending a few rockets promoted a predictable response from the Israelis. Only mad men IMO would provoke such a predictable response, as we have seen countless times before from Israel.

Israel are doing something very crazy and predictable themselves. If you drive people mad with abuse they do irrational things in their desperation. Theyre growing a little insane country of terrorists and murderers.

Frankie Lee

eoin5 wrote: »

Israel are doing something very crazy and predictable themselves. If you drive people mad with abuse they do irrational things in their desperation. Theyre growing a little insane country of terrorists and murderers.

Which they need as an excuse to continue expanding.

Does anyone else think that the US has lost control of Israel or is there any facts that would substantiate that view? e.g. leaked documents

condra

eoin5 wrote: »

Theyre growing a little insane country of terrorists and murderers.

Correction - Theyre SHRINKING a little insane country of terrorists and murderers.
(which is even worse)

Playboy

Sand wrote: »

Irrelevant. Right, wrong. Totally irrelevant.

1 - Israel exists, and essentially is powerful enough to ensure that it continues to exist despite arguments over if it should exist, what the legalities were in 1948 and so on.

2 - Theres two reactions to this. Undying idealogical fanatical hatred which refuses to recognise the reality of 1 and promises only veangence and blood and tears. Or accepting the reality of 1, and then working from the point of view of improving the quality of Palestinian life and working towards a state using methods that dont involve airstrikes landing on the people you claim to represent.

3- I can see why undying idealogical fanatical hatred is attractive or understandable for people like ourselves who dont pay any consequences for it. Its pure, its just, and we can stay on our high moral horses debating 1948 ad nauseum.

4 - In the meantime, Palestinians are suffering every day for idealogical purity. Where their lives, and the lives of their children are held to be worth less than rhetoric. Arab states which dont suffer the consequences of IDF raids and retaliation fund

5 - Its held by all viewpoints that the Palestinians cannot compete militarily with the IDF. The usual justification for suicide bombers and rockets is that the Palestinians dont have have jets or tanks.

6 - Few seem to take this a step further and argue that because the Palestinians cant compete militarily with IDF, that they shouldnt even try. That they should simply work to improve their peoples lot and use the political and moral force of non-violent protest to pressure the US into removing its unquestioned support for Israel. Currently, Israel is supported without question because Hamas feeds the Israeli viewpoint that they are fighting for their very existence. Faced with non-violent resistance how long could that view thrive with Obama in the presidency?

omg .... really!!! So people should shelf morality because being moral by refusing to accept an unjust reality is now just plain stupid!? Utlilitarianism is for morons who want to live in a world where people like you hope everyone is enough of a relativist that they let the rich shaft the poor. **** me ... but let me die before I become someone who would rather live with that kind of injustice over a person who would die in defense of a cause I believed to be right! Israel has created a breeding ground for extremism .. its laughable that they blame prisoners for fighting for their freedom.

Manic Moran

I'll give the IDF this, their intel seems pretty damned good. The videos are showing large secondary explosions from bomb drops on tunnels, with no apparent above-ground indicators of what's underneath. One video of a drop on a mosque shows the secondaries blowing the mosque to smithereens, there must have been no small amount of ammo in it.

Interesting claim from Haaretz that the IDF are conducting 'knock and bombs', basically they telephone the building that they're intending to bomb a few minutes ahead of time, give people a chance to get out.

NTM

arybvtcw0eolkf

Manic Moran wrote: »

Interesting claim from Haaretz that the IDF are conducting 'knock and bombs', basically they telephone the building that they're intending to bomb a few minutes ahead of time, give people a chance to get out.

NTM

Thats not a new tactic used by the IDF.

In Lebanon IDF OP's would ring UNIFIL OP's in Naqoura with 'shell warnings' before shelling our area of operations, giving the exact co-ordinates of the area to be bombed plus start and finish times of the operation.

Of course this couldn't happen all the time.

More often than not the shelling would be small stuff from the IDF/SLA compounds in the security zone, ie tank and mortar fire or heavy MG fire (.50cal).

Even the terrible events in Qana followed repeated calls from the IDF to UNIFIL to try have Hezbollah Katyusha rockets attacks stopped. The Hezbollah were made aware that they were going to draw fire from the IDF (M119 SP guns - 155mm arty).

"Knock and bomb", I like that term

Mr.Micro

Interesting claim from Haaretz that the IDF are conducting 'knock and bombs', basically they telephone the building that they're intending to bomb a few minutes ahead of time, give people a chance to get out.

How very noble of the IDF.

IMO Israel does not give a damn about anybody else other than Israel. The US has supported Israel unquestionably no matter what outrage was committed. Whether this continued support under Obama will last is another question. Perhaps Israel is using the last month of the Bush term to do as much damage as it can get away with, as in the future it may be severely limited in the amount of atrocities it gets away with. Defending ones country os one thing but IMO Israel goes way above that.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Irrelevant. Right, wrong. (...........)the presidency?

You're rather ignoring the occupation and blockade, which are ongoing things with associated indignities and suffering attached....

Serenity Now!

Frankie Lee wrote: »

the Egyptian state is afraid of Hamas, and they are also afraid of a popular uprising in support of Hamas so I think there will be movement from Egypt soon enough on lifting the blockade from their side.

I think Egypt will do just the opposite and increase security on its closed border to Gaza. In fact, they will seize this opportunity to strangle Hamas of logistical support from their side of the Sinai. Remember they were the occupiers of Gaza before Israel with a sizeable number of Nasser's own cohorts still in government to this day.

Sand

If they were faced with non violent resistance Israel would simply massacre the Palestinian population in a similar fashion that Indonesia massacred the East Timorese.

Violent resistance isnt stopping Israel in any shape or form. Quite simply the IDF can bomb anywhere in Palestinian territory. The IDF can invade at will.

Hamas is almost irrelevant in military terms. It is stupid to attempt to beat your opponent on his strongest ground and your weakest. Israel has a relatively free hand because the US has accepted the Israeli position that they are surrounded by threatening states, that fund terrorist groups to attack their population.

Should that position be undermined, if all the US and other people see is non-violent resistance, how long do you think unquestioned US support of Israel can remain in place?

omg .... really!!! So people should shelf morality because being moral by refusing to accept an unjust reality is now just plain stupid!? Utlilitarianism is for morons who want to live in a world where people like you hope everyone is enough of a relativist that they let the rich shaft the poor. **** me ... but let me die before I become someone who would rather live with that kind of injustice over a person who would die in defense of a cause I believed to be right! Israel has created a breeding ground for extremism .. its laughable that they blame prisoners for fighting for their freedom.

No, you shouldnt shelf morality. You should stay on the high moral horse of idealogical purity. Theres no cost to you afterall. Cheer them on as wave after wave of pointless, counterproductive, useless rocket attacks provoke more and more IDF retaliations.

Yeah, thats been such a successful strategy so far.

You're rather ignoring the occupation and blockade, which are ongoing things with associated indignities and suffering attached....

I'm not ignoring it. I'm actually advocating that there should be recognition of the occupation and the blockade - military resistance [ and I use the term *****very***** generously simply to avoid a derail] is useless. The Palestinians have lost in military terms. Further violence is simply on the level of a teenage tantrum, raging against the reality of the situation.

*Someone* on the Palestinian side is going to have to make peace.

That someone is going to have to argue for negotiation and peaceful settlement over pointless violence. He or she is going to have to bring the Palestinian people along with them, whilst avoiding being assassinated by the hardcore violent groups - like Hamas.

That someone isnt going to be assisted by calls for endless ****ing jihad and denouncing anyone who argues for negotiation as a ****ing IDF sellout or some crap like that.

You see, I can understand why Hamas and their supporters keep bashing their head against the wall. Theres rage there, theyre not thinking objectively and they are simply making a mistake.

What I dont understand is why people without that excuse encourage what is a stupid, self defeating and bloody waste of human life. With friends like that, do the Palestinians truly need enemies?

IRISH RAIL

Just a little idea of what Hamas really want

pal4life
The New Guy Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3

A message to all Israelis , specially people of the south

---

A message to Israel :

To all of you who think that the attacks on Gaza are going to stop the Resistance from firing rockets , I assure you that is not going to happen .

The attacks are only making the Palestinian resistance stronger , Hamas is getting stronger and stronger everyday , it's popularity ratings are higher than ever .

The rockets will not stop , so you either leave or die !

Our fighters are waiting for your land invasion , if that happens , you'll know what it's like to fight someone who's goal is to die.

The IDF soldiers just want to finish this and go home , but Hamas fighters leave their homes knowing they're going to die , and they're happy about it .

Killing so many people in Gaza is pointless , because we don't fear death !
Death is something we wish for.

We will continue to fire rockets , and we will keep you hiding underground .



To the Administration : please do not delete this topic , it's here to make things clear for you .
http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=8152

theres some more interesting things in that thread
like the video of hamas leader supporting human shields

Nodin

Dear o dear.....

Dudess

In fairness, Hamas are ****ing things up for ordinary Palestinians too.

IRISH RAIL

How the supporters of terrorism lie to Irish people for thier own gains.

from Irish times by davis morrison ipsc mouthpiece.
IN JUNE, Israel agreed a six-month ceasefire with Hamas. Until December 27th, no Israeli, civilian or military, was killed as a result of rocket or mortar fire from Gaza.

None. Not one. And there was very little rocket or mortar fire out of Gaza until Israel broke the ceasefire in early November.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1230/1230581467173.html
Perhaps he should reasearch the definition of the word Ceasefire as he seems to think its ok to carry on rocket and mortar fire while Israel sits on its hands.
verry little he says
223 rockets and 139 mortar shells very little ?
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf

by that comparison when he says Israels disproportionate responce shouldnt he be saying Israels minute responce ?

He also says
"But it didn't. On the contrary, it broke the ceasefire by killing six Palestinians in Gaza on the night of November 4th, while the world was watching the election of Barack Obama. As a result of this unprovoked assault by Israel, the ceasefire broke down - and rocket or mortar fire from Gaza started again. The ceasefire formally came to an end on December 19th after six months."

but if we clearly look they were Terrorists about to carry out an attack to kidnap a soilder and others who were firing rockets no mr morisson still believes thats an unprovoked attack and even Hamas says he was fighting Israelis.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/05/2410881.htm

and here the bull carries on to an incredible level
"Israel had it within its power to make an agreement with Hamas to extend the ceasefire.

All it had to do was to stick to the terms of the original ceasefire - to end military operations against Gaza and its economic strangulation of Gaza. Then Hamas would have agreed to extend the ceasefire"

but Khaled Mashal said they had no intention of renewing the lull.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052228.html

so what has the ipsc to gain from lying to Irish people in a national newspaper
answers Im sure wont be answered.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Nervous times for Gilad Shalit

IRISH RAIL

I read somewhere that hamas wants to keep him alive for barganing purposes in the future
but realisticly speaking (I think im one of the first to say this)
he is probably already dead (if either he was held in a building that was attacked or the elected government of gaza killed him before hand )

g5fd6ow0hseima

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I read somewhere that hamas wants to keep him alive for barganing purposes in the future
but realisticly speaking (I think im one of the first to say this)
he is probably already dead (if either he was held in a building that was attacked or the elected government of gaza killed him before hand )

Well, theres only one way the finger can be pointed in relation to his death

IRISH RAIL

For those who have swallowed Terrorist propoganda and support Hamas thinking they will bring peace to the region may I show you the Hamas charter.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

please pay particular attention to article 13,

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad

Remeber the nextime you reply here the people you are supporting have no interest in peace they just want to continue a bloody and murderous war they rely on people who have never been to the region to believe there propoganda machine and support them.

the_syco

It'll be fun when Hamas rise up and attacks Israel. Attacks without prejudice the enemies of Hamas.

Why fun? Because on that day, Israel will begin peaceful talks with the Palestinian people, after getting rid of it's bombs.

Well, whats left of Palestine, as all those bombs will have levelled every government building in Palestine. And every suspected terrorist stronghold. And I doubt they'll care all that much if Hamas decide to use human shields and hide within civilian areas.

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

For those (......) support them.

....none of which justifies the continued occupation and attempted annexation of Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank etc. There always seems something to scream about in the attempt to cover up what lies at the root of much Palestinian "militancy".

sovtek

Sand wrote: »

No, you shouldnt shelf morality. You should stay on the high moral horse of idealogical purity. Theres no cost to you afterall. Cheer them on as wave after wave of pointless, counterproductive, useless rocket attacks provoke more and more IDF retaliations.

Yeah, thats been such a successful strategy so far.

This isnt about rocket attacks or supposed "retailations" by the IDF. This is an all out attempt to get rid of Hamas because they are a successful resistance movement against Israel that dared to be democratically elected.
This attack on Hamas has been in the planning for 6 months or more. This is after rectifying the "mistakes" that were made by the IDF in Lebanon two years ago.
Hamas actually were succesful in stopping suicide bombings...something Abbas hasn't been able to do. So to entertain that this has anything to do with Israeli security is to entertain farce.

*Someone* on the Palestinian side is going to have to make peace.

You mean like a 6 month cease fire even under a blockade...something any other country would consider an act of war.

sovtek

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Remeber the nextime you reply here the people you are supporting have no interest in peace they just want to continue a bloody and murderous war they rely on people who have never been to the region to believe there propoganda machine and support them.

Speaking of propoganda machines.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/02/israel-palestine-pr-spin

munchester29

sovtek wrote: »

This isnt about rocket attacks or supposed "retailations" by the IDF. This is an all out attempt to get rid of Hamas because they are a successful resistance movement against Israel that dared to be democratically elected.
This attack on Hamas has been in the planning for 6 months or more. This is after rectifying the "mistakes" that were made by the IDF in Lebanon two years ago.
Hamas actually were succesful in stopping suicide bombings...something Abbas hasn't been able to do. So to entertain that this has anything to do with Israeli security is to entertain farce.

The Israelis have already stated that their goal is to stop Hamas from firing rockets and mortar shells into Israel – not to get rid of Hamas altogether.

Israel (as most other countries that have armies) have plans for almost any crisis that might occur well in advance.

Hamas didn’t stop suicide bombings – the wall, checkpoints and the blockade stopped the suicide bombers.

sovtek wrote: »

You mean like a 6 month cease fire even under a blockade...something any other country would consider an act of war.

Hamas kept firing rockets & mortar shells into Israel throughout the ceasefire. They also tried to execute another operation to kidnap an Israeli soldier.
Throughout the ceasefire, Hamas continued to smuggle explosives, rockets and mortar shells into Gaza.

Serenity Now!

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

How the supporters of terrorism lie to Irish people for thier own gains.
from Irish times by davis morrison ipsc mouthpiece.
IN JUNE, Israel agreed a six-month ceasefire with Hamas. Until December 27th, no Israeli, civilian or military, was killed as a result of rocket or mortar fire from Gaza.
None. Not one. And there was very little rocket or mortar fire out of Gaza until Israel broke the ceasefire in early November

Obviously (and intentionally) the meaning of a ceasefire is ignored by Morrison. "Very little" rocket or mortar fire during a ceasefire breaks a ceasefire.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

so what has the ipsc to gain from lying to Irish people in a national newspaper
answers Im sure wont be answered.

It is an opinion piece in the Irish Times. It gets answered. All sides of the debate have been given plenty of print space and letters/editorials on the subject also.

In that same edition and on that very same page is a piece by Neve Gordon on why the attacks are taking place. An extremely coherent and in my view, wholly correct overview of this debacle.

I am of the opinion Israel should not have carried out these attacks but I do wish that others of this viewpoint would take a step back and look at how Hamas have also contributed.