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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭patser grey


    IRISH RAIL wrote: »
    The jews lived there for generations


    Which Jews exactly? because I'm a little confused about what a Jew is, do you mean blood Jews or Khazar jews?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    IRISH RAIL wrote: »
    as Im sure yourself and everyone else is aware thats what some people fall back to when there arguments have exausted themselves.

    Like calling people terrorist supporters, anti-semites and other ad homenem bullsh1t eh?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    I dont agree with slaughtering innocent people, displacing people or any of the other attrocities you and co are applauding, you ought to be ashamed and think what would you do in their place cause I know what I'd do.
    I have a feeling most people here aren't agreeing with slaughtering innocent people, I certainly don't and I can't see any other posters here agreeing with the civilian casualties.

    The reason I post here is that most people seem to gloss over what Hamas is doing while condemning Israel for retaliating.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    The Saint wrote: »
    Like calling people terrorist supporters, anti-semites and other ad homenem bullsh1t eh?

    In fairness you can't compare that with personal attacks like calling someone a ''coward''.

    Supporting Hamas is supporting a recognoised terrorist organisation, its really that simple.

    I see Sky News is reporting artillary and naval bombardment of targets in The Gaza now.

    I feel this could be a prelude to a ground offensive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭SectionF


    This debate really is quite chilling in the degree of acceptance and even welcome shown for mass killings by a wealthy, industrialised country of helpless people trapped in a ghetto. I suppose being far away from Palestine helps...

    Here are some courageous, principled Israelis whose opinion on the current atrocity and disputes on proportionality would not be in doubt. They put us all to shame.

    You can sign their petition at http://december18th.org/


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    you ought to be ashamed and think what would you do in their place cause I know what I'd do.

    .


    I feel no shame, in fact I feel pretty smug right at the moment knowing that in real term's I've made a difference to people's lives in the Middle East already and would be prepared to do so again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    Mairt wrote: »
    In fairness you can't compare that with personal attacks like calling someone a ''coward''.

    Supporting Hamas is supporting a recognoised terrorist organisation, its really that simple.

    I see Sky News is reporting artillary and naval bombardment of targets in The Gaza now.

    I feel this could be a prelude to a ground offensive.

    I'd be a hell of a lot more offended to be called a racist than a coward. I should haev qualified that this ddoesn't hold for just one side in the arguement. There's a lot of nonsense passed between the sides that have no relevance to the arguement and in my opinion detracts from it.

    I'm not sure many are supporting Hamas. I certainly am not. Unfortunately they were elected so they do have some form of political legitimacy. This is not saying that their military actions are legitimate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    Proportionality?

    To quote the Irish Times, since when was war about playing for a draw?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭patser grey


    Mairt wrote: »
    In fairness you can't compare that with personal attacks like calling someone a ''coward''.

    Supporting Hamas is supporting a recognoised terrorist organisation, its really that simple.

    I see Sky News is reporting artillary and naval bombardment of targets in The Gaza now.

    I feel this could be a prelude to a ground offensive.

    Depends on your view of terrorist organisation, I see a terrorist organisation at work now on tv, murdering innocent people, destroying innocent peoples homes, their terrorists, does that require retaliation, if so I hope they get it, but in fairness I dont blame the Israeli people as their drafted into the conspiracy by their evil leaders, and I applaud Israeli's such as sectionf posted, these people are more couragous than the filthy animals that have no conscience, that jump on the bandwagon, that do nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Depends on your view of terrorist organisation, I see a terrorist organisation at work now on tv, murdering innocent people, destroying innocent peoples homes, their terrorists, does that require retaliation, if so I hope they get it, but in fairness I dont blame the Israeli people as their drafted into the conspiracy by their evil leaders, and I applaud Israeli's such as sectionf posted, these people are more couragous than the filthy animals that have no conscience, that jump on the bandwagon, that do nothing.

    So do you support Hamas?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭SectionF


    As to the debate concerning terrorism, this account of a Zionist attack on an Arab village might shed some light. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4381818,00.html

    As to comparisons with Nazism and the Holocaust, from the same (2002) article:
    It is odious to reach for analogies with the Holocaust, yet the recent images of the Israeli army rounding up, handcuffing and blindfolding young men in the Dheishe refugee camp and then inking numbers on to their arms made Nazi parallels almost involuntary. And in the Israeli newspaper Ha-aretz on January 25, the military commentator Amir Oren quoted an Israeli officer in the occupied territories as saying that his commanders must "first analyse and internalise the lessons of earlier battles - even, however shocking it may sound, how the German army fought in the Warsaw ghetto".



    In their own words, they are prepared to learn lessons in oppression from their own oppressors, no matter how vile the world considers the Nazis.

    Not pleasant, not easy to confront, but, appallingly, still true today.

    Edit: original reference in Haaretz


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    SectionF wrote: »
    As to the debate concerning terrorism, this account of a Zionist attack on an Arab village might shed some light. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4381818,00.html
    And heres a list of suicide bombings carried out by Hamas
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks

    Not sure why I'm posting this, buts it's about as useful as your post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭dublincelt


    IRISH RAIL wrote: »
    One ton where are you getting this crap from
    seriously try reasearch before making things up


    YOU are the one that talks crap, Source is Associated Press.

    Your country are murdering scum by the way!

    Israeli War Planes Smash Home Of Top Hamas Leader

    Nizar Rayan Ranked Among Hamas' Top Five Decision-Makers

    images_image_281093753.gifCBS News Interactive: Mideast Conflict

    3 of 3





    An Israeli warplane dropped a 2,000-pound bomb on the home of one of Hamas' top five decision-makers Thursday, instantly killing him and 18 others, while the Israeli army said troops massed on the Gaza border were ready for any order to invade.

    The airstrike on Nizar Rayan was the first that succeeded in killing a member of Hamas' highest echelon since Israel began its offensive Saturday. The 49-year-old professor of Islamic law was known for personally participating in clashes with Israeli forces and for sending one of his sons on a 2001 suicide mission that killed two Israelis.

    The attacks continued Friday. Before dawn, Israeli aircraft hit 15 houses belonging to Hamas militants, Palestinians said. They said the Israelis either warned nearby residents by phone or fired a warning missile to reduce civilian casualties. Twelve people were hurt in the attacks, hospital officials said.

    Even as it pursued its bombing campaign, Israel kept the way open for intense efforts by leaders in the Middle East and Europe to arrange a cease-fire. Israel said it would consider a halt to fighting if international monitors were brought in to track compliance with any truce.

    Adding to the urgency of the diplomatic maneuvering, the Israeli military said its preparations for a possible ground assault were complete and that troops stood ready to cross the border if the air operation to stamp out Hamas rocket fire needed to be expanded.

    Soldiers massed along the Gaza frontier said they were eager to join the fight, and some even cheered as they heard thunderous airstrikes in the distance.

    The hit on Rayan's home obliterated the four-story apartment building and peeled off the walls of others around it, creating a field of rubble in the crowded town of Jebaliya in the northern Gaza Strip. Mounds of debris thrown up by the blast swallowed up cars.

    Eighteen other people, including all four of Rayan's wives and nine of his 12 children, also were killed, Palestinian health officials said. A man cradled the burned, limp body of a child he pulled from the rubble.

    The house was one of five bombed Thursday, among more than 20 targets altogether. Warplanes shredded the houses, taking off walls and roofs and leaving behind eerie, dollhouse-like views into rooms that still contained furniture.

    Israel's military, which has said the homes of Hamas leaders are being used to store missiles and other weapons, said the attack on Rayan's house triggered secondary explosions from the arms stockpiled there.

    Seven other Palestinians were killed in airstrikes Thursday and one died of earlier injuries.

    Israel has targeted Hamas leaders many times in the past, and the current leadership went into hiding at the start of the offensive. Rayan, however, was known for openly defying Israel and in the past had led crowds to the homes of wanted Hamas figures — as if daring Israel to strike and risk the lives of civilians.

    Residents said he openly went to a nearby mosque Thursday morning to pray.

    In his last interview, recorded with Hamas TV on Wednesday, Rayan was as defiant as ever about confronting the Israeli military.

    "Oh fighters, know that you will be victorious," he said. "God promises us either victory or martyrdom. God is greater than they are, God is greater than their planes, God is greater than their rockets."

    The military said it had information that there was a tunnel beneath Rayan's home for use as an escape route.

    Israel seemed determined to press ahead with airstrikes on Hamas houses. It also has been targeting buildings used by the territory's Hamas government — emptied days ago by evacuations — as well as rocket-launching sites and smuggling tunnels along the border with Egypt.

    "We are trying to hit everybody who is a leader of the organization, and today we hit one of their leaders," Israeli Vice Premier Haim Ramon said in a television interview.

    More than 400 Gazans had been killed and some 1,700 wounded since Israel embarked on its aerial campaign, Gaza health officials said. The United Nations has said the death toll includes more than 60 civilians, 34 of them children.

    One of them, 11-year-old Ismail Hamdan, was buried Thursday after dying of wounds suffered from an airstrike Tuesday that killed two of his sisters, Haya, 4, and Lama, 12. His body was wrapped in a Palestinian flag and his battered face was still bandaged as he was carried above a crowd of mourners.

    Since Saturday, three Israeli civilians and one soldier have also died in rocket attacks that have reached deeper into Israel than ever before, bringing more than a tenth of Israel's population of 7 million within rocket range.

    The bombing campaign has worsened an already hard life for Gaza's mostly poor population of 1.5 million. On Thursday, hundreds of people stood in long, snaking lines across the territory waiting to buy bread.

    Israel launched the offensive Saturday after more than a week of intense Palestinian rocket fire that followed the expiration of a six-month truce, which Hamas refused to extend because Israel kept up its blockade of Gaza.

    So far, the campaign has been conducted largely from the air. But a military spokeswoman, Maj. Avital Leibovich, said preparations for a ground operation were complete.

    "The infantry, the artillery and other forces are ready. They're around the Gaza Strip, waiting for any calls to go inside," Leibovich said.

    Thousands of soldiers waited along the border, resting among tanks, armored personnel carriers and howitzers. The troops watched warplanes and attack helicopters flying into Gaza, cheering each time they heard the explosion of an airstrike.

    One soldier, who can be identified under military rules only as Sgt. Yaniv, said he was eager to go in. "I am going crazy here watching all this. I want to do my part as well," he said.

    Hamas promised to put up a fight if Israeli land forces invaded.

    "We are waiting for you to enter Gaza to kill you or make you into Schalits," the group said, referring to Israeli Sgt. Gilad Schalit, who was captured in a cross-border raid by Hamas-affiliated militants 2 1/2 years ago and remains in captivity in Gaza.

    Israel's bruising campaign has not deterred Hamas from assaulting Israel. According to the military, militants fired more than 30 rockets into southern Israel during the day.

    No injuries were reported, but an eight-story apartment building in Ashdod, 23 miles from Gaza, was hit. Panicked residents ran through a debris-strewn street.

    Earlier this week, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rebuffed a French proposal for a two-day suspension of hostilities to allow for the delivery of humanitarian supplies. Israel has been allowing trucked relief supplies to enter Gaza. Ninety aid trucks crossed the border Thursday.

    Still, Olmert seemed to be looking for a diplomatic way out, telling Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other world leaders that Israel would accept a truce only if international monitors took responsibility for enforcing it, government officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the talks were confidential.

    A Turkish truce proposal included a call for such monitors.

    Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, speaking to reporters during a visit to Paris for meetings with French officials, expressed skepticism about the benefits of a cease-fire. She said Hamas used the lull during the six-month truce that expired last month to build up its arsenal of weapons.

    "Our experience from the past is that even when we accept something in order to have a peaceful period of time, they abuse it in order to get stronger and to attack Israel later on," Livni said.

    Egypt's foreign minister said Hamas must ensure that rocket fire stops in any truce deal, and he criticized the Palestinian militants for giving Israel an "opportunity on a golden platter" to launch the offensive.

    Gaza has been under Hamas rule since the group's fighters overran it in June 2007. The West Bank has remained under the control of moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who has been negotiating peace with Israel for more than a year but has no influence over Hamas. Bringing in truce monitors would require cooperation between the fiercely antagonistic Palestinian factions.

    An Abbas confidant said the Palestinian president supported the notion of international involvement. "We are asking for a cease-fire and an international presence to monitor Israel's commitment to it," Nabil Abu Rdeneh said.

    World leaders have not been deterred by the initial rejections by Israel and Hamas of truce efforts, and next week French President Nicolas Sarkozy plans a whirlwind trip around the region.

    (© 2009 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,205 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Israel stepping up their terrorist actions with artillery now


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    dublincelt wrote: »
    YOU are the one that talks crap, Source is Associated Press.

    Don't copy and paste a whole article, a link is enough.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    To quote the Irish Times, since when was war about playing for a draw?

    I like the way you turn up to this discussion and just disregard all that has been said about the nature of the conflict. It isnt a black and white war, anyone rational who thinks more than about three seconds about it can come to that conclusion.
    Mairt wrote: »
    Supporting Hamas is supporting a recognoised terrorist organisation, its really that simple.

    There is absolutely nothing simple about the nature of Hamas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭dublincelt


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    Don't copy and paste a whole article, a link is enough.

    Fair enough...


    http://wbztv.com/national/hamas.israel.airstrikes.2.898239.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭patser grey


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    So do you support Hamas?

    Listen I would prefer peace, but its not so, I see the Israeli's as the aggressors here and rightly so, I wont put my head out as target for being a terrorist supporter, but I view anybody who supports Israel as a terrorist supporter, it goes against the grain of humanity to support such cowardice. Does that answer your question?.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Viewing Hamas as just a terrorist organization, or equally as just a democratically elected group, is ridiculous.

    People who support Hamas here are being termed terrorists? Would those accusers also term supported of the IRA terrorists as well?

    It bewilders me the way everyone tries to simplify issues into black and whites.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    They're not trying to simplify anything, they're using it as a tool to distract from the criticism of the IDF. It's very effective.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭luckyfrank


    I generally take a pro-israeli view on most things but i think they are way out of order on this

    They need the west to come together and say that this is not acceptable

    Hamas are scum but the israeli's are no better the way they are behaving

    Bush's one-sided comments the other day sickend me just a puppet for the pro jewish lobby group at the heart of washington


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    turgon wrote: »
    People who support Hamas here are being termed terrorists?
    No they're not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭luckyfrank


    Anyone who thinks the israeli's are in the the right take a look

    http://www.theync.com/media.php?name=7272-students-killed


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    luckyfrank wrote: »
    I generally take a pro-israeli view on most things but i think they are way out of order on this

    They need the west to come together and say that this is not acceptable

    Hamas are scum but the israeli's are no better the way they are behaving

    Bush's one-sided comments the other day sickend me just a puppet for the pro jewish lobby group at the heart of washington

    Yeow!! Possibly the first recorded case of someone's opinion having been changed by this and other discussions! Excuse me gloating - I know this is a very serious business, but for those of us that are posting regularly on this issue it can often seem like no-one's mind is ever changed by our campaigning. Thanks for telling us and good luck with whatever you decide to do about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks the israeli's are in the the right take a look

    http://www.theync.com/media.php?name=7272-students-killed

    I'm pretty sure anyone supporting Israel is aware there has been civilian causalities...
    edanto wrote: »
    Yeow!! Possibly the first recorded case of someone's opinion having been changed by this and other discussions! Excuse me gloating - I know this is a very serious business, but for those of us that are posting regularly on this issue it can often seem like no-one's mind is ever changed by our campaigning. Thanks for telling us and good luck with whatever you decide to do about it.
    Jumping the gun there a bit. It sounds like he has made up his own mind, not listen to someone on a forum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭patser grey


    edanto wrote: »
    Yeow!! Possibly the first recorded case of someone's opinion having been changed by this and other discussions! Excuse me gloating - I know this is a very serious business, but for those of us that are posting regularly on this issue it can often seem like no-one's mind is ever changed by our campaigning. Thanks for telling us and good luck with whatever you decide to do about it.


    Was just thinking the same thing, hopefully the tide is turning, people will have the courage to say enough is enough, bring on the revolution......


  • Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭dublincelt


    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks the israeli's are in the the right take a look

    http://www.theync.com/media.php?name=7272-students-killed


    The work of Nazi's. That is the only way to discribe it. Shame on the world for allowing the Zionist's inflict this on a defenceless people. American made bombs and missiles prolonging the suffering of the Palestinian people. How anybody on here can blame this on Hamas and not on the real perpetrators is beyond me.

    Shame on Israel, A facist state!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Has anyone called for a boycott of Israeli imports yet?.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    dublincelt wrote: »
    The work of Nazi's. That is the only way to discribe it. Shame on the world for allowing the Zionist's inflict this on a defenceless people. American made bombs and missiles prolonging the suffering of the Palestinian people. How anybody on here can blame this on Hamas and not on the real perpetrators is beyond me.

    Shame on Israel, A facist state!

    Could you possibly make any more inaccurate analogies if you tried?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Mairt wrote: »
    Has anyone called for a boycott of Israeli imports yet?.

    Happened in one of the AH threads. No more sweet potato for me :(


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