1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

tallaght01

Do neither of you appreciate the fear that average Israelis have of Palestinian terrorists?

They don't give the impression they want peace. Doesn't the Hamas charter refer to hammering the Israelis out of it?

Do you not see that Hamas flout international law, too?

I personally think that every single time one sude commits an act of terror, they can say it was "Because Israel/Hamas did XYZ to us".

Just reminds me of how Republicans up North were terrified of the UK army/RUC, and the unionist community were terrified of Republican terrorists. So they were all very forgiving of their sides' atrocities.

I think it's the same here.

I don't think we can realistically argue that all Israelis or all Palestinians just happen to be bad people.

tallaght01

ionix5891 wrote: »

Why dont they send a cheque of 30billion / population of Palestine (~4million) = $7500? to each citizen with a "Valid after peace is achieved" condition, that'll solve the problems

I have to say i LOVE this idea

Nodin

tallaght01 wrote: »

But we can all agree that if Hamas had the weapons they'd be humpin the proverbial hole off Israel?

.......in a non-consensual manner, yes, I'd imagine they would.

youcrazyjesus!

tallaght01 wrote: »

Do neither of you appreciate the fear that average Israelis have of Palestinian terrorists?

I do but replace Israeli with Palestinian and vice versa. Given the relative cost in civilian deaths over the years and the blockade and it's at least an equally valid way of looking at things is it not? Who is more afraid tonight?

They don't give the impression they want peace. Doesn't the Hamas charter refer to hammering the Israelis out of it?

I think this point has been made about 30 or 40 times on this thread and others reading back. Hamas has offered Israel negotiations on every subject, including a final settlement. Israel refuses.

[Do you not see that Hamas flout international law, too?

Yes they do. They hold an Israeli soldier but do Israel not hold 10,000 Palestinians? They attack civilian areas with rockets but Israel shell civilian areas and use 1,000lb bombs levelling apartment blocks in a "surgical" assassination? Their resistance amounts to some pathetic rockets but Israel destroys their whole infrastructure? Again it's a question of proportionality. Hamas is not occupying any part of Israel. Nor will it ever. Hamas has made THIS peace offer many times to Israel.

I think it's the same here.

There was some equality to the conflict. The Brits never levelled West Belfast with 1,000lb bombs.

I don't think we can realistically argue that all Israelis or all Palestinians just happen to be bad people.

I very much doubt anybody is making that argument. The source of most people's outrage is the disproportionate response. Other people, like myself, also understand the historical injustice involved and would like to see Israel withdraw to it's 1967 borders and offer the Palestinians some kind of life (repeat: withdraw completely to 1967, recognise a Palestinian state, apologise and offer a land corridor and not: collectively punish Palestinians, divide what's left of their land up, steal their water and humiliate them at every turn - this is why Hamas fires rockets, because they live under occupation and no, withdrawing from Gaza but putting a strangehold of a blockade in place is not a full withdrawal). If Israel wants peace it can have it. Very soon.

tallaght01

I disagree with this "disproportionate reponse" we keep talking about.

The palestinians would do the same given the opportunity.

It doesn't make them more right. It makes them unlucky.

But, look, I figured I'd get this response. There's a lot of navel gazing going on, and quite a bit of revisionist/romantic history.

I just wanted to see where those who have convinced themselves that this conflict is one sided are coming from.

I'm none the wiser, but at least I've tried,

A Dub in Glasgo

tallaght01 wrote: »

I disagree with this "disproportionate reponse" we keep talking about.

What is so wrong with a proportional response? Do you disagree with disproportionate reponses in general or that Israels response has been disproportional?

conorlyons

Proportionality is irrelevant; Hamas has been firing rockets into Southern Israel for many years. The 'figures' of Israelis killed by the rockets may, granted, be small in comparison to the number of Palestinian casualties (many of the reported civilian deaths in Gaza, by the way, are the result of Hamas using the populace as human shields for their militants), but that doesnt' detract from the fact that for many Israelis in this reason (which constitutes one eighth of Israel), life is completely unbearable. Imagine living in an area where up to EIGHTY times per day you are given fifteen second notice that there is an inbound rocket. Then imagine this going on for years? Any civilized nation in the world would naturally invoke its right to defend itself from such heinous aggression. That Israel is being held guilty of so-called 'agression' is testimony to the double standard with which the international community views Israel.

youcrazyjesus!

tallaght01 wrote: »

I disagree with this "disproportionate reponse" we keep talking about.

The palestinians would do the same given the opportunity.

But they're not, nor have they ever, so the moral argument does not apply. It's completely irrelevant.

It doesn't make them more right. It makes them unlucky.

How can you use a hypothetical Palestinian response to justify Israel's actions? We've gone from using rockets to justifying it to a hypothetical now.

"Don't kid yourself, Jimmy - If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!"

But, look, I figured I'd get this response. There's a lot of navel gazing going on, and quite a bit of revisionist/romantic history.

Please specify how it is revisionist.

I just wanted to see where those who have convinced themselves that this conflict is one sided are coming from.

Who is convincing themselves that Israeli actions are justified based on a hypothetical Palestinian reaction that has never and will never ever happen?

I could just turn around and say that NOT thinking it's one-sided have "convinced" themselves of something. You could also apply that analysis to anything. There were 2 sides fighting in the Warsaw Ghetto too, is that fight a conflict which is completely impossible to untangle too? If the Warsaw insurrectionists had nukes they'd use them on Germany so it's justified?

Or is there some analysis and rationale you can apply to come to a conclusion about it?

I don't believe it's one sided. I merely happen to believe that Israel is behaving cynically, disproportionately and completely illegally and I happen to share the same opinion as well known anti-Semite and all-round trouble maker Jimmy Carter on the conflict as a whole. It's a perfectly rational opinion thank you.

Mr.Micro

Originally Posted by tallaght01

But we can all agree that if Hamas had the weapons they'd be humpin the proverbial hole off Israel?

Its just as well they do'nt, as it may mean order will be restored sooner and less bloodshed. Israel will no doubt quell Hamas activity rightly or wrongly for some time and the latter have only themselves to blame. It brings me back to the question why Hamas embarked on such a foolhardy campaign?

SectionF

tallaght01 wrote: »

I disagree with this "disproportionate reponse" we keep talking about.

The palestinians would do the same given the opportunity.

It doesn't make them more right. It makes them unlucky.

Oh, that's ok then. Israel is mercilessly killing scores of women and children and it's no one's fault.
There is no justification for this. The rockets are a convenient pretext. It is mass slaughter as a means of subjugation of an already brutalised people whose land is illegally occupied. They admit themselves that they use techniques which they learned from the Nazis, and they call anyone who tries to resist them a terrorist.
All the time, we in the west sit and do nothing, while others defend this murderous regime, which claims to be a democracy, having cleared from its territory those who would oppose it.
Arabs, and Palestinians in particular, are to this era what Jews were to the early 20th Century. Those who condone their treatment will be viewed by history in the same way as those who actively or tacitly supported Hitler.

tallaght01

conorlyons wrote: »

Proportionality is irrelevant; Hamas has been firing rockets into Southern Israel for many years. The 'figures' of Israelis killed by the rockets may, granted, be small in comparison to the number of Palestinian casualties (many of the reported civilian deaths in Gaza, by the way, are the result of Hamas using the populace as human shields for their militants), but that doesnt' detract from the fact that for many Israelis in this reason (which constitutes one eighth of Israel), life is completely unbearable. Imagine living in an area where up to EIGHTY times per day you are given fifteen second notice that there is an inbound rocket. Then imagine this going on for years? Any civilized nation in the world would naturally invoke its right to defend itself from such heinous aggression. That Israel is being held guilty of so-called 'agression' is testimony to the double standard with which the international community views Israel.

That's kinda what I was getting at.....

I don't think the amount of firepower that you have at your disposal alters how "right" you are, is really the argument I'm making.

youcrazyjesus!

conorlyons wrote: »

Proportionality is irrelevant;

Israel would be justified in launching nuclear weapons at Palestinian? Or would that be disproportionate?

Hamas has been firing rockets into Southern Israel for many years.

Why have they been doing this? Do you know? Do you know at least why they SAY they have been doing this?

The 'figures' of Israelis killed by the rockets may, granted, be small in comparison to the number of Palestinian casualties (many of the reported civilian deaths in Gaza, by the way, are the result of Hamas using the populace as human shields for their militants), but that doesnt' detract from the fact that for many Israelis in this reason (which constitutes one eighth of Israel), life is completely unbearable.

If life is unbearable for Israelis, then Palestinians must be living on hell on earth.

Imagine living in an area where up to EIGHTY times per day you are given fifteen second notice that there is an inbound rocket.

Imagine living in area where up to 1,000lb bombs or shells kill you in your sleep or as you talk to friends outside, you are given 0 seconds notice that there is an inbound missile about to blow you to bits!

Then imagine this going on for years?

Imagine this going on for 60 years.

Any civilized nation in the world would naturally invoke its right to defend itself from such heinous aggression. That Israel is being held guilty of so-called 'agression' is testimony to the double standard with which the international community views Israel.

This reads like an Israeli Foreign Ministry news conference. Watch Fox News much?

(many of the reported civilian deaths in Gaza, by the way, are the result of Hamas using the populace as human shields for their militants),

Source please. Israel had a very long and ugly history of using Palestinian human shields too. Gaza is also a very densely populated area.

Call Me Jimmy

Do people honestly think that the israelis are blood sucking animals who want any excuse to kill children? Sitting there in south israel lookin at all those palestinian children playing 'tag' thinking, "if only we could just rocket those little ****s, look at them laughing and playing!".

Also, does anyone here think that if during the ceasefire there had been no attacks on israel that they would have bombarded the palestinians anyway?

tallaght01

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Israel would be justified in launching nuclear weapons at Palestinian? Or would that be disproportionate?



Why have they been doing this? Do you know? Do you know at least why they SAY they have been doing this?



If life is unbearable for Israelis, then Palestinians must be living on hell on earth.



Imagine living in area where up to 1,000lb bombs or shells kill you in your sleep or as you talk to friends outside, you are given 0 seconds notice that there is an inbound missile about to blow you to bits!



Imagine this going on for 60 years.



This reads like an Israeli Foreign Ministry news conference. Watch Fox News much?



Source please. Israel had a very long and ugly history of using Palestinian human shields too. Gaza is also a very densely populated area.

You're obviously entitled to your views. But taking one side because basically they're more shyte at war than the other side is just a stance I can never agree with.

Murderers are murderers. Innocent victims are innocent victims.

I'll potter off now and hope for peace. You can continue to hate one group of murderers only, as is your perogative.

A Dub in Glasgo

conorlyons wrote: »

Proportionality is irrelevant

No, it is very relevant

That Israel is being held guilty of so-called 'agression' is testimony to the double standard with which the international community views Israel.

Israel are guilty of war crimes in their slaughter over the last week. Just a pity the ICC will not try those responsible for their crimes

Call Me Jimmy

And another thing, do any of you think that if the fighters separated the civilians from themselves, got themselves in one area of gaza and told the civilians to move far away, that israel would bomb the civilians? Hamas say it's an atrocity (and it is extremely unfortunate) but they know if they didn't hide behind the people, if they grouped the military in one area of gaza, that they wouldn't last two seconds.

dublincelt

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Do people honestly think that the israelis are blood sucking animals who want any excuse to kill children? Sitting there in south israel lookin at all those palestinian children playing 'tag' thinking, "if only we could just rocket those little ****s, look at them laughing and playing!"

Can you speculate as to the reason that they are using Depleted Uranium Shells in one of the most densely popultated places on earth. Link to story below..

http://beagle17.gnn.tv/blogs/30595/In_Gaza_life_ain_t_worth_a_DIME

and also

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x237301

All in the name of Self Defence!!

Call Me Jimmy

I wouldn't like to speculate as I know nothing about military equipment.

youcrazyjesus!

tallaght01 wrote: »

You're obviously entitled to your views. But taking one side because basically they're more shyte at war than the other side is just a stance I can never agree with.

I don't take any side. I have an opinion, there's a difference, it's not based on something as childish as who is "better" at war either. Nor would I be childish enough to excuse Israel on that basis either. I used to be quite pro-Israeli btw, when I was younger. That is before I became educated on the subject. You never responded to any examples I've given.

Murderers are murderers. Innocent victims are innocent victims.

I'll potter off now and hope for peace. You can continue to hate one group of murderers only, as is your perogative.

I could say exactly the same thing about you, but I'd rather engage in debate rather than snide name-calling while ignoring the substantial debate.
I understand that having a fetish for IDF hand-to-hand combat indicates you're someone whose not in a position to comment objectively, so no problem.
Have you served in the IDF? It would hardly make you impartial, as you claim to be.

youcrazyjesus!

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Do people honestly think that the israelis are blood sucking animals who want any excuse to kill children? Sitting there in south israel lookin at all those palestinian children playing 'tag' thinking, "if only we could just rocket those little ****s, look at them laughing and playing!".

Who made this argument? I want to disagree with them.

Nodin

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Also, does anyone here think that if during the ceasefire there had been no attacks on israel that they would have bombarded the palestinians anyway?

Almost certainly. Its really more about winning the election in Feb.

ionix5891

tallaght01 wrote: »

The palestinians would do the same given the opportunity.
,

thats no excuse for bombing people

"oh lets bomb them because they might do the same give a chance"

youcrazyjesus!

Mairt wrote: »

Even the terrible events in Qana followed repeated calls from the IDF to UNIFIL to try have Hezbollah Katyusha rockets attacks stopped. The Hezbollah were made aware that they were going to draw fire from the IDF (M119 SP guns - 155mm arty).

Despite this, investigations say Israel massacred civilians deliberately at Qana.

TOMASJ

Hats off to Hamas,
hope they give Israelis bullying army (and their fancy so called precision weapons) a good hiding like Hezbollah did in Lebanon a few years ago,

youcrazyjesus!

TOMASJ wrote: »

Hats off to Hamas,
hope they give Israelis bullying army (and their fancy so called precision weapons) a good hiding like Hezbollah did in Lebanon a few years ago,

Hamas are not nearly as well equiped as Hezbollah and Israel has learned some very valuable lessons from the ass-whooping handed out to them in Lebanon. Gaza is also a very high density area (on a par with Hong Kong), it's civilians who will pay the price.

af_thefragile

So more than 500 palestinians killed (saying about 40,000 injured) while only 5 Israelis killed so far since this started a week ago.

swimtwobirds

hamas are no leaders for their people. this - the invasion - is an outcome
they desired. islamic jihad, who launched 300 rockets between dec 19th & 27th, are on record as 'praying for an invasion'. hamas have no true duty of care for their citizens.

Im not defending Israels disproportionate response. but hamas are just a bunch of thugs. they've taken the opportunity here to execute 30 fatah members in gaza. they're a proxy foreign force and they could care less
if they lead their people into the fire.

Manic Moran

Can you speculate as to the reason that they are using Depleted Uranium Shells in one of the most densely popultated places on earth

Because that's what the weapons are designed for.

DIME = Dense Inert Metal Explosive. The problem with normal HE-filled iron bombs is that the fragmentation can go a very long way and kill people a bit further than you would like. (Surprisingly far, actually, I once had a bit of 152mm shell whizz past me when I had thought I was well safe.) The purpose of DIME is that it has a greatly reduced lethal radius: It kills what it hits, but not much else. Basically by using very small fragments of a heavy nature, the fragmentations still have enough mass to do damage near the source of the explosion, but they loose velocity very quickly thus reducing the overall fragmentation distance to a matter of a dozen or so metres.

Of course, if you prefer, they could always go back to using nothing but traditional big bombs which blow the crap out of lots more people instead.

NTM

Selkies

The people who have it worst in this situation are the palestinian people (of course).

They have been betrayed by every nation in the region. No one will let them become citizens of any country, their leaders maintain large bank accounts, tell the lower people to send their sons and daughters off to blow themselves up and to add to it all they get their house knocked down by some israeli bulldozer.

Then Hamas turns up offering them a grass roots straight forward solution, hit the israelis and no corruption. They may have no foreign bank accounts to my knowledge but they have completely lost track of what's important. They use ambulances for transporting military personel and equiptment, they somehow manage to transport thousands of expensive rockets into gaza and yet their people are starving.
Even if the Israelis let the aid in, the UN wouldn't have been able to store it or have it moved around, hamas would have prevented it.
They need to start thinking about the Palestinian people and the damage they are doing to them by provoking a state capable of such horrific damage to their infrastructure and even more important horrific numbers of casualties.

I'm terrified for the palestinians right now, they have nothing but the rockets they plan on firing into Israel.

Maybe someday there will be peace in the middle east. Maybe when they run out of women and children to blow up.

trentf

oh don't worry israel now, europe next...