1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Selkies

On the issue of proportional response, I'd really like to know what the logic to this one is, its not like Israel don't know what they are doing. They are a seriously professional army, expensive one at that.
Why are there so many palestinian casualties? Also what kind of proportion of those are actually hamas or some other sort of gun men/women/children?
I'd imagine whatever the figure is its not satisfactory.

I don't understand how they can get Israeli's to slaughter people. I mean sure if your friends/relatives have been killed by a suicide bomber you tend to feel rather angry towards those who have taken them away but these are policy decisions that are getting made here by an elected official. You don't have to have a small army in order to get elected in Israel, so its not a who has the most guns democracy in which case the guy most fond of guns wins.
Israel has a supreme court which often restrict its actions in "securing" the region, where was that while they were assassinating buildings.

Also where are the Arab nations on this one, only Libya is coming out in support of Hamas, everyone else is backing away from this.
Where is the opec pressure on Britain to condemn Israel. Really everyone is being rather tight lipped about this.
Surely if anyone were to step into this it would Syria or Egypt.
Why doesn't any state seem to care?

Nodin

Selkies wrote: »

Surely if anyone were to step into this it would Syria or Egypt.
Why doesn't any state seem to care?

Because they don't. They view Hamas as a rival and a subversive organisation. Though a supporter of the Palestinian cause, I can't say even I've any time for them, due to their theocratic nature.

Selkies

Nodin wrote: »

Because they don't. They view Hamas as a rival and a subversive organisation. Though a supporter of the Palestinian cause, I can't say even I've any time for them, due to their theocratic nature.

In the times today they said it was because Hamas are Shi'ite organisation.

They don't really seem to play well with others

Nodin

Selkies wrote: »

In the times today they said it was because Hamas are Shi'ite organisation.

That won't get them too many party invites, no.

Selkies

Nodin wrote: »

That won't get them too many party invites, no.

Not really, luckily for them they seem to be funded by Iran who are no friends of Israel but are becoming increasingly secular.

spiderdan

Darragh29 wrote: »

The Israeli people and their government are the Oliver Cromwell of the 21st century. What is so difficult about this issue to resolve??? Give these people their fu*king land back and somewhere that they can call their own and there will be no problem whatsoever. How the fu*k do you expect people to react when they are hemmed in with walls and security cordons that are in breach of international law and they don't even have water, food or electricity??? This is my point, the Jewish people were nearly persecuted off the face of the earth no more than 60 years ago and this is how they treat another race of people, nearly worse than their famous Austrian tormentor??? I hope Iran throws down the fu*king gauntlet to them and shows them up for the intransigent race of completely insecure and backward people that they are...

+ 1

spiderdan

as pointed out it in the OP its very interesting to see how the other Arab nations have handled this current situation. Iran have barely said boo to this.

What do people think Iran will do/ can do? Are they in no position to act as the U.S. effectively has a gun to its head, will Syria say anything, will Lebanon and Hezbollah start up in the North? Egypt is another US backed country so I wouldn't expect anything from them.

I suspect Isreal and the US are too powerful and can defend any military offensive from the surrounding countries- this leaves the inevitable increase in small Jihadi terrorist groups attacking Jews, pro-Isreal/ US countries. Much like the attacks in Mumbai. The only real threat to Isreal from a Muslim country would be Pakistan which is currently being monitored very closely by the US so the chances of any fundamentalists getting their hands on nuclear weapons are next to none.

Mr.Micro

as pointed out it in the OP its very interesting to see how the other Arab nations have handled this current situation. Iran have barely said boo to this.

Anybody can see with half a brain that it is a no win situation for Hamas, and other nations are not going to back a loser or the idiots in Hamas who are intent on total destruction of Israel and the Palestinian people, the latter they are achieving on a daily basis.

ionix5891

as i replied in another thread i did some maths and quick research



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Casualties

according to wikipedia

from 1987 to 2007

Israelis dead ~ 1453
Palestinians dead ~ 6035


last week

Israelis dead ~5
Palestinians dead ~ 500

turgon

I dont agree with it but one of the excuses for this is that the motive is the same; ie if Hamas had the ability to inflict the amount of damage the Israelis do, then they would.

munchester29

Selkies wrote: »

On the issue of proportional response, I'd really like to know what the logic to this one is, its not like Israel don't know what they are doing. They are a seriously professional army, expensive one at that.
Why are there so many palestinian casualties? Also what kind of proportion of those are actually hamas or some other sort of gun men/women/children?
I'd imagine whatever the figure is its not satisfactory.

The whole idea of proportional response in a war is illogical.
In a war, each side tries to inflict as much damage on the other side, while sustaining as little damage as possible, and they usually try to achieve all that in the shortest period of time.

Selkies wrote: »

Also where are the Arab nations on this one, only Libya is coming out in support of Hamas, everyone else is backing away from this.
Where is the opec pressure on Britain to condemn Israel. Really everyone is being rather tight lipped about this.
Surely if anyone were to step into this it would Syria or Egypt.
Why doesn't any state seem to care?

Even the Arab countries realize that Hamas went too far – firing thousands of rockets on civilian population during a ceasefire…
They can’t justify Hamas actions, and they know that Hamas’s actions will only end in more suffering in the region, so they keep quiet.

dublincelt

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Anybody can see with half a brain that it is a no win situation for Hamas, and other nations are not going to back a loser or the idiots in Hamas who are intent on total destruction of Israel and the Palestinian people, the latter they are achieving on a daily basis.

I think the real reason is that the dictatorships in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia are heavily backed by the US. If Egypt where to throw open its borders in the north of the Country, it breaks off its relationship with Israel and the US. Mubarrack will not do that at the risk of incurring the rath of the so-called western world and loose both economic and military support. So in essence he is forced to be complicit in the slaughter that is taking place. And make no mistake, a slaughter is what it is. Hamas were not intent on the destruction when the 6 month ceasefire was broken in November. An do you know who broke the ceasefire??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-egypt

Call Me Jimmy

ionix5891 wrote: »

as i replied in another thread i did some maths and quick research



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Casualties

according to wikipedia

from 1987 to 2007

Israelis dead ~ 1453
Palestinians dead ~ 6035


last week

Israelis dead ~5
Palestinians dead ~ 500

What's your point?

dublincelt

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Hamas were digging a tunnrel into Israel territory...

Ah grand so. Did it ever occur to you that they could just destroy the tunnell in order to protect the ceasefire.

So in response to a tunnell that the IOF say they found, they break off the ceasefire kill 6 millitants and open up a new wave of attacks on both Israel and Gaza.

Do you really believe that Israel wanted this ceasefire so close to a general election??

munchester29

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

What's your point?

He has a system of "Evil By Numbers"... The more you kill, the more evil you are.
Now, if the Palestinians only managed to kill a few more Israelis, to match the score so to speak...

ionix5891

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

What's your point?

"you kill one its a tragedy, you kill thousands its a statistic"

munchester29

dublincelt wrote: »

Ah grand so. Did it ever occur to you that they could just destroy the tunnell in order to protect the ceasefire.

So in response to a tunnell that the IOF say they found, they break off the ceasefire kill 6 millitants and open up a new wave of attacks on both Israel and Gaza.

Do you really believe that Israel wanted this ceasefire so close to a general election??

You forgot to mention:
The tunnel was built to attack an Israeli outpost or patrol, and kidnap more soldiers like Gilad Shalit.

Funny how you don’t see that as breaking the ceasefire… Maybe Israel should have waited until another soldier was kidnapped before they acted?

dublincelt

munchester29 wrote: »

You forgot to mention:
The tunnel was built to attack an Israeli outpost or patrol, and kidnap more soldiers like Gilad Shalit.

Funny how you don’t see that as breaking the ceasefire… Maybe Israel should have waited until another soldier was kidnapped before they acted?

Have you seen any pictures of this "tunnel"?? So are you telling me that because the Army say they found a tunnel, that is tantamount to the breaking of a Ceasefire??

Do you believe everything the Isreali Defence Forces tell you?

Call Me Jimmy

ionix5891 wrote: »

"you kill one its a tragedy, you kill thousands its a statistic"

Oh wise sage! Are you going to make a point any time soon?

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

You forgot to mention:
The tunnel was built to attack an Israeli outpost or patrol, and kidnap more soldiers like Gilad Shalit.

Funny how you don’t see that as breaking the ceasefire… Maybe Israel should have waited until another soldier was kidnapped before they acted?

We've been over this point before. You need to distinguish between what has been stated and what can be proved is true. It's STATED that they were after a tunnel, we don't know if it's true. There is a worrying tendency by yourself and others to repeatedly cover points that have been dealt with before and ignore many others. The debate goes nowhere.

ionix5891

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Oh wise sage! Are you going to make a point any time soon?

your feeling a little bit slow today? i already did, twice

whooosh

Selkies

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-egypt

That article says Israelis went in to blow up the tunnel and some Hamas guys defended it with their lives.

Both entities claim that the other broke the truce.

The Israelis seem to think that entering Gaza and blowing up a tunnel isn't breaking the truce they made. Strange the ideas some folks get, anyone have a copy of the truce they made?

Selkies

ionix5891 wrote: »

your feeling a little bit slow today? i already did, twice

whooosh

Perhaps instead of insulting each other, call me jimmy could ask politely for elaboration and ionix could oblige.

Fact is that all these figures confuse the situation, all I want to know is how many innocent civilians have been killed period, that should be on everyones' conscience.
These aren't golf scores!

Selkies

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

We've been over this point before. You need to distinguish between what has been stated and what can be proved is true. It's STATED that they were after a tunnel, we don't know if it's true. There is a worrying tendency by yourself and others to repeatedly cover points that have been dealt with before and ignore many others. The debate goes nowhere.

Yeah how do we know the tunnel wasn't just being used to transport in rockets. The kidnapping thing seems a little contrived.

ionix5891

Selkies wrote: »

Perhaps instead of insulting each other, call me jimmy could ask politely for elaboration and ionix could oblige.

Fact is that all these figures confuse the situation, all I want to know is how many innocent civilians have been killed period, that should be on everyones' conscience.
These aren't golf scores!

ok ill apologies to him, my apologies

back on topic i posted the figures to bring some facts into this thread, its easier to come to an opinion with facts in hand

Selkies

ionix5891 wrote: »

ok ill apologies to him, my apologies

back on topic i posted the figures to bring some facts into this thread, its easier to come to an opinion with facts in hand

good stuff, I think those figures tend to bring up the defensive side in the pro Israel folks because its hard to argue against what they imply.
Israel has killed multiples more than their own death count. They claim they work for peace and yet they treat the Israeli life as worth more than the palestinian life. They do it in prisoner swaps, they do it in retaliation and they do it with their checkpoints.
How can there be peace if there is no equality?

BlaasForRafa

Selkies wrote: »

good stuff, I think those figures tend to bring up the defensive side in the pro Israel folks because its hard to argue against what they imply.
Israel has killed multiples more than their own death count. They claim they work for peace and yet they treat the Israeli life as worth more than the palestinian life. They do it in prisoner swaps, they do it in retaliation and they do it with their checkpoints.
How can there be peace if there is no equality?

Of course Israel treats its civilian and soldiers lives as being of value, the highest core value of the IDF is ""The IDF's goal is to defend the existence of the State of Israel, its independence and the security of the citizens and residents of the state.".

if Hamas valued its peoples lives more then perhaps they wouldn't fire rockets from civilian areas using their civilians as shields.

Call Me Jimmy

Selkies wrote: »

good stuff, I think those figures tend to bring up the defensive side in the pro Israel folks because its hard to argue against what they imply.
Israel has killed multiples more than their own death count. They claim they work for peace and yet they treat the Israeli life as worth more than the palestinian life. They do it in prisoner swaps, they do it in retaliation and they do it with their checkpoints.
How can there be peace if there is no equality?

Apologies to ionix, but I don't think numbers of deaths imply anything on their own. I'm not pro-Israel either, I have no reason to be. I am just an onlooker who feels that Israel don't want to destroy all palestinians.

Gangsta

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Of course Israel treats its civilian and soldiers lives as being of value, the highest core value of the IDF is ""The IDF's goal is to defend the existence of the State of Israel, its independence and the security of the citizens and residents of the state.".

if Hamas valued its peoples lives more then perhaps they wouldn't fire rockets from civilian areas using their civilians as shields.

He said they think 1Israeli>>>>>a person of any other nationality. Eh, core value? Just because they something doesn't mean they act by it or even believe it themselves. Israelis say tripe like this to fool people like you and I say congrats to them.

Human shield? eh....like this: image016.

Israelis only value Israeli lives and kill anyone in their path, whether it be Palestinian, English or even American people. It just so happens that Palestinians are the dominant population in Gaza.

Call Me Jimmy

Why did you post such a stupid irrelevant picture?