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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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    #1082
    Gangsta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Gangsta


    please explain?


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    #1083
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Gangsta wrote: »
    please explain?

    I take it you posted it to demonstrate how Israelis use human shields? Do you think that picture is evidence of it?


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    #1084
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Gangsta wrote: »
    Israelis only value Israeli lives and kill anyone in their path, whether it be Palestinian, English or even American people. It just so happens that Palestinians are the dominant population in Gaza.

    And Hamas are an all caring full of love organization I suppose????


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    #1085
    Gangsta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Gangsta


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    I take it you posted it to demonstrate how Israelis use human shields? Do you think that picture is evidence of it?

    Your skills of inference are second to none.
    turgon wrote: »
    And Hamas are an all caring full of love organization I suppose????

    Never said that.


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    #1086
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Well if a picture like that is what you base opinions on, then there's no point even talking to you.


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    #1087
    Gangsta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Gangsta


    What do you see when you look at that picture?


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    #1088
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Two soldiers and a child, taking cover behind a wall. There are about 100 assumptions you have to make in order to think that it is evidence of the israelis using children as human shields. Even more if ye imply that it is policy of the military.


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    #1089
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Gangsta wrote: »
    Never said that.

    So why dont you go ahead and criticize Hamas then? You thorough condemnation of Israel give them impression you are pro-Hamas, so if your not you will have to be more fair minded and objective in voicing your opinion.
    Gangsta wrote: »
    What do you see when you look at that picture?

    Im sure we could find plenty of pics of Hamas firing rockets and stuff at innocent civilians. But betya you wouldnt be willing to give that a shot? Youd probably term it Zionist propaganda or some other rubbish.

    An another thing, what would you have the soldier do. Throw the kid out into the middle of the road, into the centre of the battle. The kid could have been taking cover there, as is natural for people to take cover in warzones. Why do you assume evil motive? Because of your innate prejudice?


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    #1090
    youcrazyjesus!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭youcrazyjesus!


    Going OT, as an aside, I've been impressed by the Sky News coverage of this. Next to the BBC's insanely pro-Israeli slant Sky News are a paragon of decent journalism. They deserve a lot of credit.


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    #1091
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    Selkies wrote: »
    good stuff, I think those figures tend to bring up the defensive side in the pro Israel folks because its hard to argue against what they imply.
    Israel has killed multiples more than their own death count. They claim they work for peace and yet they treat the Israeli life as worth more than the palestinian life. They do it in prisoner swaps, they do it in retaliation and they do it with their checkpoints.
    How can there be peace if there is no equality?


    The figures actually mean nothing.
    This is war we are talking about here, not a football match.
    Hate to repeat myself, but I will - In war both sides try to cause the most damage while sustaining as little damage.
    The Palestinians are the weaker side in this war, and that is why their losses are much higher. It’s not for lack of trying.
    I doubt the Palestinians would have shown the same restraint Israel does if the wheels were turned. We would have probably witnessed a second holocaust if that was the case.

    If the Israelis had the same amount of casualties as the Palestinians would that make things more just in your opinion?


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    #1092
    Gangsta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Gangsta


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    Two soldiers and a child, taking cover behind a wall. There are about 100 assumptions you have to make in order to think that it is evidence of the israelis using children as human shields. Even more if ye imply that it is policy of the military.

    Hardly 100. Just because you choose to believe all that our media tells you doesn't make it anymore true. I don't imply its the policy of the military becaue that would just be stupid on their part.
    turgon wrote: »
    Im sure we could find plenty of pics of Hamas firing rockets and stuff at innocent civilians. But betya you wouldnt be willing to give that a shot? Youd probably term it Zionist propaganda or some other rubbish.

    funny thing actually, I searched "hamas kills children/civilians just earlier on Google. Weird what came up, although a picture of hamas using 'civilian shields' came up on.....wait for it.....zionist.com:P lol.


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    #1093
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Gangsta wrote: »
    :P lol.

    Not nearly as funny as the way you failed to address all the other points I made.


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    #1094
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Gangsta wrote: »
    Hardly 100. Just because you choose to believe all that our media tells you doesn't make it anymore true. I don't imply its the policy of the military becaue that would just be stupid on their part.

    You're accusing me of "believing what the media tells me" when I'm the one showing restraint and fair-mindedness about an image, yet you admit that you're making several assumptions about the picture to come to the conclusion you want to?


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    #1095
    Gangsta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Gangsta


    Eh, you only made one other point which I did not know as you edited your original post. I see evil motive because Israel have never done anything to make me consider otherwise.


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    #1096
    youcrazyjesus!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭youcrazyjesus!


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Hate to repeat myself, but I will - In war both sides try to cause the most damage while sustaining as little damage.

    A war is when 2 armies fight. Blowing up civilian infrastructure, government infrastructure (Hamas related or not), mosques and whole apartment buildings (complete with furniture and sleeping children) with 1000lb bombs is simply slaughter. When it's being carried out against people who are almost competely defenceless it can't be deemed a war by any means.
    The Palestinians are the weaker side in this war, and that is why their losses are much higher. It’s not for lack of trying.

    You're justifying it on the basis of a hypothetical response from the Palestinians? Is that the level we're at now?
    If the Israelis had the same amount of casualties as the Palestinians would that make things more just in your opinion?

    It would at least mean that there was a genuine war/battle going on. In reality the situation is almost totally asymmetrical.


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    #1097
    youcrazyjesus!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭youcrazyjesus!


    Gangsta wrote: »
    Eh, you only made one other point which I did not know as you edited your original post. I see evil motive because Israel have never done anything to make me consider otherwise.

    The photo is irrelevant, it could be of any number of scenarios. It could even be fake. In fact, the soliders looked quite relaxed.


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    #1098
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Gangsta wrote: »
    Eh, you only made one other point which I did not know as you edited your original post. I see evil motive because Israel have never done anything to make me consider otherwise.

    So you admit bias in favour of Hamas?


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    #1099
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    Gangsta wrote: »
    funny thing actually, I searched "hamas kills children/civilians just earlier on Google. Weird what came up, although a picture of hamas using 'civilian shields' came up on.....wait for it.....zionist.com:P lol.

    Israel's policy has always been not to release such pictures of killed/injured Israelis to the public. They consider it disrespectful to the dead.


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    #1100
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Look, if you're gonna use a photo like that as part of evidence then ye have to make a conclusion based on what the picture does tell ye.

    There are two big things that blow a hole in your theory.
    From the picture we can tell that the child is in better cover than the soldier and the soldier has his weight up against him, keeping the child's body close to the wall. If he was using the child as a shield he would want to make sure not only that the child can be well-seen by the enemy but also he would use the child's body to his advantage.

    This is further supported by the fact that the picture must have been taken by an israeli because I doubt the soldier would miss a palestinian 5 feet away taking a picture. A journalist couldn't have taken it if this is a picture from the current fighting. You haven't stated when you believe the picture was taken.

    So the picture was most likely taken by an israeli, in which case it doesn't make sense that they would take a picture of themselves using children as shields. It would make a lot more sense if they were taking pictures of themselves keeping children out of harm's way, which is the likeliest scenario.

    But even though it's likely that the soldier was in fact protecting the child, I would never base an opinion on this picture.


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    #1101
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    youcrazyjesus! wrote: »
    A war is when 2 armies fight. Blowing up civilian infrastructure, government infrastructure (Hamas related or not), mosques and whole apartment buildings (complete with furniture and sleeping children) with 1000lb bombs is simply slaughter. When it's being carried out against people who are almost competely defenceless it can't be deemed a war by any means.

    Actually, according to wikipedia:
    War is the reciprocal and violent application of force between hostile political entities aimed at bringing about a desired political end-state via armed conflict.

    As I’ve said before – the fact that the Palestinians are the weaker side in this war, which results in them suffering the most, doesn’t instantly qualifies them to be the just in this struggle.

    I’ll finish by saying that if Israel really wanted to end things, it would have been very easy to do – they could wipe out the entire Palestinian people in Gaza in a matter of days.
    The fact that they go out of their way to limit civilian casualties on the Palestinian side just shows how morally superior they are to the Palestinians, who go out of their way to kill both Israeli civilians and their own people.


    youcrazyjesus! wrote: »
    You're justifying it on the basis of a hypothetical response from the Palestinians? Is that the level we're at now?

    Not justifying anything – this is the reality of war, and the reality of this conflict.


    youcrazyjesus! wrote: »
    It would at least mean that there was a genuine war/battle going on. In reality the situation is almost totally asymmetrical.

    Yet you had no problem with the asymmetry when the Hamas fired dozens of rockets everyday on Israel while Israel did nothing?

    Besides, what does asymmetry have to do with the conflict? Should the Israelis target fewer Hamas terrorists because they didn’t kill enough Israelis yet?

    Seems like the only justification you can see for hurt Palestinians is if the same number of Israelis was hurt before… Seriously - the whole notion of comperative damage is really childish and unrealistic.


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    #1102
    dublincelt
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭dublincelt


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Israel's policy has always been not to release such pictures of killed/injured Israelis to the public. They consider it disrespectful to the dead.

    You will actuallly find that it is the Israeli policy to deny access to World media into Gaza. Something which they have absolutely NO right to do under international law and even going against the wishes of their own Supreme Court.

    Just what have Israel to hide in all of this? I suppose pictures of the seven family members killed by a 2000lb bomb earlier today may not have helped with the propaganda campaign.

    Sure isnt Israel just defending herself?!!


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    #1103
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    dublincelt wrote: »
    Sure isnt Israel just defending herself?!!

    Yes, technically she is.

    Everyone here has to realize that the invasion was a defense mechanism against rockets being flung into Gaza. That the rockets were a mechanism against Israeli hostility. etc etc. Try to apportion blame is futile.


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    #1104
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    dublincelt wrote: »
    You will actuallly find that it is the Israeli policy to deny access to World media into Gaza. Something which they have absolutely NO right to do under international law and even going against the wishes of their own Supreme Court.

    Just what have Israel to hide in all of this? I suppose pictures of the seven family members killed by a 2000lb bomb earlier today may not have helped with the propaganda campaign.

    Sure isnt Israel just defending herself?!!

    The thing is, do you think it's acceptable to have a significant part of a country under constant rocket attacks and for the government to do nothing to try and stop it?


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    #1105
    dublincelt
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭dublincelt


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Actually, according to wikipedia:
    War is the reciprocal and violent application of force between hostile political entities aimed at bringing about a desired political end-state via armed conflict.

    As I’ve said before – the fact that the Palestinians are the weaker side in this war, which results in them suffering the most, doesn’t instantly qualifies them to be the just in this struggle.

    I’ll finish by saying that if Israel really wanted to end things, it would have been very easy to do – they could wipe out the entire Palestinian people in Gaza in a matter of days. The fact that they go out of their way to limit civilian casualties on the Palestinian side just shows how morally superior they are to the Palestinians, who go out of their way to kill both Israeli civilians and their own people.





    Not justifying anything – this is the reality of war, and the reality of this conflict.





    Yet you had no problem with the asymmetry when the Hamas fired dozens of rockets everyday on Israel while Israel did nothing?

    Besides, what does asymmetry have to do with the conflict? Should the Israelis target fewer Hamas terrorists because they didn’t kill enough Israelis yet?

    Seems like the only justification you can see for hurt Palestinians is if the same number of Israelis was hurt before… Seriously - the whole notion of comperative damage is really childish and unrealistic.

    What an intrinsicly racist post!
    "The fact that they go out of their way to limit civilian casualties on the Palestinian side just shows how morally superior they are to the Palestinians, who go out of their way to kill both Israeli civilians and their own people."
    Are the mods on here happy to tolerate that level of Racist abuse??


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    #1106
    dublincelt
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭dublincelt


    turgon wrote: »
    Yes, technically she is.

    Everyone here has to realize that the invasion was a defense mechanism against rockets being flung into Gaza. That the rockets were a mechanism against Israeli hostility. etc etc. Try to apportion blame is futile.


    Being flung into Gaza or being flung out??!! Who broke the six month ceasefire in this latest "war"?


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    #1107
    dublincelt
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭dublincelt


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    The thing is, do you think it's acceptable to have a significant part of a country under constant rocket attacks and for the government to do nothing to try and stop it?

    Who broke the ceasefire that has lead to the rockets being fired in this instance? Do you agree that the media should be denied access to Gaza to blindfold what is currently taking place.


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    #1108
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    munchester29 wrote: »
    The fact that they go out of their way to limit civilian casualties on the Palestinian side just shows how morally superior they are to the Palestinians, who go out of their way to kill both Israeli civilians and their own people.

    They've killed more Palestinian Civilians in the past 1 week than Palestinians have killed Israelis in the past 3 years. How morally superior of them.


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    #1109
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    dublincelt wrote: »
    What an intrinsicly racist post!

    Are the mods on here happy to tolerate that level of Racist abuse??

    Please explain what's racist about my post if you can, I mean , other than the fact that it goes against what you believe to be true.


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    #1110
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    dublincelt wrote: »
    Being flung into Gaza or being flung out??!! Who broke the six month ceasefire in this latest "war"?

    The Palestinians broke it. They considered a ceasefire to be firing just a few rockets a week instead of dozens everyday...


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    #1111
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    dublincelt wrote: »
    Who broke the ceasefire that has lead to the rockets being fired in this instance? Do you agree that the media should be denied access to Gaza to blindfold what is currently taking place.

    I agree that the media should have access to Gaza, although I think that under the conditions there some of them are bound to get hurt, which will naturally be blamed on Israel, and the Israeli govenrment wants to avoid that so they are doing their best to delay them from entering.

    They will get in eventually. Also, there are plenty of reporters alreday there.


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