1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

Ok, valid point. How about this then, on a different issue: A letter sent by Morris to th Irish times after being quoted once too many about "ethnical cleansing" of Palestinians:

"There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet of March 10, 1948, was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15."

My question - do you agree, based on Morris's research that Israel did not try to "ethnically cleanse" the Arabs in 1948, as many Palestinian supporters claim?

I did not state that the Israeli intended to etnically cleanse the Palestinians. I stated the ethnic cleansing happened although there are other historians who believe it was intentional. However all those etnically cleansed had a right under international law to return to their homes. This was refused by the Israeli state.

From Morris

In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves. At the same time, it turns out that there was a series of orders issued by the Arab Higher Committee and by the Palestinian intermediate levels to remove children, women and the elderly from the villages. So that on the one hand, the book reinforces the accusation against the Zionist side, but on the other hand it also proves that many of those who left the villages did so with the encouragement of the Palestinian leadership itself.

"The nexus between thought and action was not so much a matter of 'predetermination' and preplanning as of a mind-set that accepted transfer as a legitimate solution. Once that 'transfer' got under way, of its own accord, in late 1947-early 1948 (Arabs fled mainly out of fear of bombs and bullets), the Zionist leadership, guided by Ben-Gurion, was predisposed to nudge the process along, occasionally with the help of expulsions. The initial refugee trickle turned into a flood tide during April-July 1948"

The debate about whether or not the mass exodus of Palestinians was the result of a Zionist design or the inevitable concomitant of war should not ignore the ideological constructs that motivated the Zionist enterprise. The philosophy of transfer was not a marginal, esoteric article in the mindset and thinking of the main leaders of the Yishuv. These ideological constructs provided a legitimate environment for commanders in the field actively to encourage the eviction of the local population even when no precise orders to that effect were issued by the political leaders.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

Decisive causes of abandonment Occurrences
military assault on settlement 215
influence of nearby town's fall 59
expulsion by Jewish forces 53
fear (of being caught up in fighting) 48
whispering campaigns 15
abandonment on Arab orders 6
unknown 44

munchester29

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Right.
Nothing to do with being forced from their homes into what is basicaly an open air prison, constant harrassment, no freedom of movement, etc etc ad nausium.

They have many reasons for their attacks, doesn't change the fact that Hamas are Iranian puppets, and they will never take action (or stop actions) unless Iran approves of it. Any action.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, we all use the sources that support what we believe in, don't we?.

I have not used opinion pieces as evidence. I try to use credible sources.

munchester29 wrote: »

Funny thing is, he is gay, and if he was living in Gaza, Hamas would have already shown him how cultured and open minded they are...

I don't know why him being gay has anything to do with the arguement or why it negates him having an opinion on the conflict regardless of what Hamas would do. Anyway, as I've said before, Hamas can go rot for all I care. I have no affection for any theocratic entity.

The Saint

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

3: They are an implicitly anti-semitic organisation whose vow to drive Israel and its population into the see blinds it to the reality.

Care to provide a source where they said they wanted to "drive the Jews into the sea"? And please don't give me the same guff about it being implied and saying of course they'd do it. A credible source please.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

That’s a matter of opinion. Sources you consider as biased can be considered as reliable by me and vice versa.

Let me get this straight. You're saying the venerable Independent and some despicable debate-killing propaganda outfit are somehow equivalent? Two different sides to the debate?

Stop digging. Put the shovel down. Walk away. I know you've just googled something and come up with an article on CAMERA without realising what a laughing stock they are. If you still think CAMERA are reliable then I've some shares I want to sell you. It's ok to be wrong.

In my opinion, it just shows he has no problem ignoring inconvenient truths. Could be other psychological explanations though, who knows?

He's a self-hating gay. That's it! Maybe he's just an honest journalist calling it as he sees it, I don't always agree with him but no matter which way he swings on a certain issue I don't think he sets out to be biased or is the victim of his own seriously one-sided pre-conceived notions.

munchester29

The Saint wrote: »

I don't know why him being gay has anything to do with the arguement or why it negates him having an opinion on the conflict regardless of what Hamas would do. Anyway, as I've said before, Hamas can go rot for all I care. I have no affection for any theocratic entity.

It’s just strange to me, because if he supports the Hamas organization, even if he only actually wants to support the Palestinian struggle, he ends up also supporting the Hamas treatment of gays.

Then again, maybe he is just waiting for the conflict to end, and then Hamas will get some criticizing articles from him on that issue.

Selkies

The Saint wrote: »

Care to provide a source where they said they wanted to "drive the Jews into the sea"? And please don't give me the same guff about it being implied and saying of course they'd do it. A credible source please.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Taken from the hamas charter.

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Stop digging. Put the shovel down. Walk away. I know you've just googled something and come up with an article on CAMERA without realising what a laughing stock they are. If you still think CAMERA are reliable then I've some shares I want to sell you. It's ok to be wrong.

Here we go again. You always seem to miss the point.

By the way – still didn’t get an answer for my Benny Morris question – Do you believe that Israel has committed “ethnic cleansing” in 1948, even though Morris rejects that claim?

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Here we go again. You always seem to miss the point.

By the way – still didn’t get an answer for my Benny Morris question – Do you believe that Israel has committed “ethnic cleansing” in 1948, even though Morris rejects that claim?

That was somebody else.

SectionF

Sorry to interrupt the ego-driven point-scoring and the fetishising of military might. This from Gaza:

Amid the tidal wave of human misery swamping Gaza City’s central hospital a horrified Norwegian volunteer doctor found a minute to type a text message on his mobile phone to friends back home.

“We are wading in death, blood, and amputees. Many children. A pregnant woman. I have never experienced anything so terrible. Now we hear tanks. Pass it on, send it around, shout it out. Anything. DO SOMETHING! DO MORE! We are living in a history book now, all of us.” It was signed Mads Gilbert, one of two Norwegian doctors toiling relentlessly alongside exhausted Palestinian medics.

So far, despite a flurry of diplomatic activity, no one has done anything.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Here we go again. You always seem to miss the point.

Its very much on point. Its just that youve posted yet more nonsense and are sticking to it although
youve been found out on it. Its not the first time.

Jack Bauer999

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

That was somebody else.

The calculations behind Israel’s slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza

2 January 2009

Uri Avnery explains how Israel engineered the collapse of the truce in the Gaza Strip in order “to terrorize the civilian population by unremitting attacks from the air, sowing death and destruction”, utterly destroying the entire life-supporting infrastructure in the Strip, creating anarchy and consequently prompting the population to rise up against Hamas.

Just after midnight, Al-Jazeera’s Arabic channel was reporting on events in Gaza. Suddenly the camera was pointing upwards towards the dark sky. The screen was pitch black. Nothing could be seen, but there was a sound to be heard: the noise of airplanes, a frightening, a terrifying droning.

It was impossible not to think about the tens of thousands of Gazan children who were hearing that sound at that moment, cringing with fright, paralyzed by fear, waiting for the bombs to fall.

“Israel must defend itself against the rockets that are terrorizing our southern towns,” the Israeli spokesmen explained. “Palestinians must respond to the killing of their fighters inside the Gaza Strip,” the Hamas spokesmen declared.

As a matter of fact, the cease-fire did not collapse, because there was no real cease-fire to start with. The main requirement for any cease-fire in the Gaza Strip must be the opening of the border crossings. There can be no life in Gaza without a steady flow of supplies. But the crossings were not opened, except for a few hours now and again. The blockade on land, on sea and in the air against a million and a half human beings is an act of war, as much as any dropping of bombs or launching of rockets. It paralyzes life in the Gaza Strip: eliminating most sources of employment, pushing hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation, stopping most hospitals from functioning, disrupting the supply of electricity and water.

Those who decided to close the crossings – under whatever pretext – knew that there is no real cease-fire under these conditions.

That is the main thing. Then there came the small provocations which were designed to get Hamas to react. After several months, in which hardly any Qassam rockets were launched, an army unit was sent into the Strip “in order to destroy a tunnel that came close to the border fence”. From a purely military point of view, it would have made more sense to lay an ambush on our side of the fence. But the aim was to find a pretext for the termination of the cease-fire, in a way that made it plausible to put the blame on the Palestinians. And indeed, after several such small actions, in which Hamas fighters were killed, Hamas retaliated with a massive launch of rockets, and – lo and behold – the cease-fire was at an end. Everybody blamed Hamas.

What was the aim? Tzipi Livni announced it openly: to liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza. The Qassams served only as a pretext.

Liquidate Hamas rule? That sounds like a chapter out of “The March of Folly”. After all, it is no secret that it was the Israeli government which set up Hamas to start with. When I once asked a former Shin-Bet chief, Yaakov Peri, about it, he answered enigmatically: “We did not create it, but we did not hinder its creation.”

For years, the occupation authorities favoured the Islamic movement in the occupied territories. All other political activities were rigorously suppressed, but their activities in the mosques were permitted. The calculation was simple and naive: at the time, the Palestine Liberation Organization was considered the main enemy, Yasser Arafat was the current Satan. The Islamic movement was preaching against the PLO and Arafat, and was therefore viewed as an ally.

With the outbreak of the first intifada in 1987, the Islamic movement officially renamed itself Hamas (Arabic initials of “Islamic Resistance Movement”) and joined the fight. Even then, the Shin-Bet took no action against them for almost a year, while Fatah members were executed or imprisoned in large numbers. Only after a year, were Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and his colleagues also arrested.

Since then the wheel has turned. Hamas has now become the current Satan, and the PLO is considered by many in Israel almost as a branch of the Zionist organization. The logical conclusion for an Israeli government seeking peace would have been to make wide-ranging concessions to the Fatah leadership: ending of the occupation, signing of a peace treaty, foundation of the State of Palestine, withdrawal to the 1967 borders, a reasonable solution of the refugee problem, release of all Palestinian prisoners. That would have arrested the rise of Hamas for sure.

But logic has little influence on politics. Nothing of this sort happened. On the contrary, after the murder of Arafat, Ariel Sharon declared that Mahmoud Abbas, who took his place, was a “plucked chicken”. Abbas was not allowed the slightest political achievement. The negotiations, under American auspices, became a joke. The most authentic Fatah leader, Marwan Barghouti, was sent to prison for life. Instead of a massive prisoner release, there were petty and insulting “gestures”.

Abbas was systematically humiliated, Fatah looked like an empty shell and Hamas won a resounding victory in the Palestinian election – the most democratic election ever held in the Arab world. Israel boycotted the elected government. In the ensuing internal struggle, Hamas assumed direct control over the Gaza Strip.

And now, after all this, the government of Israel decided to “liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza” – with blood, fire and columns of smoke.

The official name of the war is “Cast Lead”, two words from a children’s song about a Hanukkah toy.

It would be more accurate to call it “The Election War”.

In the past, too, military action has been taken during election campaigns. Menachem Begin bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor during the 1981 campaign. When Shimon Peres claimed that this was an election gimmick, Begin cried out at his next rally: “Jews, do you believe that I would send our brave boys to their death or, worse, to be taken prisoner by human animals, in order to win an election?” Begin won.

Peres is no Begin. When, during the 1996 election campaign, he ordered the invasion of Lebanon (operation “Grapes of Wrath”), everybody was convinced that he had done it for electoral gain. The war was a failure and Peres lost the elections and Binyamin Netanyahu came to power.

Barak and Tzipi Livni are now resorting to the same old trick. According to the polls, Barak’s predicted election result rose within 48 hours by five Knesset seats. About 80 dead Palestinians for each seat. But it is difficult to walk on a pile of dead bodies. The success may evaporate in a minute if the war comes to be considered by the Israeli public as a failure. For example, if the rockets continue to hit Beersheba, or if the ground attack leads to heavy Israeli casualties.

The timing was chosen meticulously from another angle too. The attack started two days after Christmas, when American and European leaders are on holiday until after New Year. The calculation: even if somebody wanted to try and stop the war, no one would give up his holiday. That ensured several days free from outside pressures.

Another reason for the timing: these are George Bush’s last days in the White House. This blood-soaked moron could be expected to support the war enthusiastically, as indeed he did. Barack Obama has not yet entered office and had a ready made pretext for keeping silent: “there is only one president”. The silence does not bode well for the term of President Obama.

The main line was: not to repeat the mistakes of Lebanon War II. This was endlessly repeated on all the news programmes and talk shows.

This does not change the fact: the Gaza war is an almost exact replica of the second Lebanon war.

The strategic concept is the same: to terrorize the civilian population by unremitting attacks from the air, sowing death and destruction. This poses no danger to the pilots, since the Palestinians have no anti-aircraft weapons at all. The calculation: if the entire life-supporting infrastructure in the Strip is utterly destroyed and total anarchy ensues, the population will rise up and overthrow the Hamas regime. Mahmoud Abbas will then ride back into Gaza on the back of Israeli tanks.

In Lebanon, this calculation did not work out. The bombed population, including the Christians, rallied behind Hizbullah, and Hassan Nasrallah became the hero of the Arab world. Something similar will probably happen this time, too. Generals are experts on using weapons and moving troops, not on mass psychology.

Some time ago I wrote that the Gaza blockade was a scientific experiment designed to find out how much one can starve a population and turn its life into hell before they break. This experiment was conducted with the generous help of Europe and the US. Up to now, it did not succeed. Hamas became stronger and the range of the Qassams became longer. The present war is a continuation of the experiment by other means.

It may be that the army will “have no alternative” but to re-conquer the Gaza Strip because there is no other way to stop the Qassams – except coming to an agreement with Hamas, which is contrary to government policy. When the ground invasion starts, everything will depend on the motivation and capabilities of the Hamas fighters vis-à-vis the Israeli soldiers. Nobody can know what will happen.

Day after day, night after night, Al-Jazeera’s Arabic channel broadcasts the atrocious pictures: heaps of mutilated bodies, tearful relatives looking for their dear ones among the dozens of corpses spread out on the ground, a woman pulling her young daughter from under the rubble, doctors without medicines trying to save the lives of the wounded. (The English-language Al-Jazeera, unlike its Arabic-language sister-station, has undergone an amazing about face, broadcasting only a sanitized picture and freely distributing Israeli government propaganda. It would be interesting to know what happened there.)

Millions are seeing these terrible images, picture after picture, day after day. These images are imprinted on their minds forever: horrible Israel, abominable Israel, inhuman Israel. A whole generation of haters. That is a terrible price, which we will be compelled to pay long after the other results of the war itself have been forgotten in Israel.

But there is another thing that is being imprinted on the minds of these millions: the picture of the miserable, corrupt, passive Arab regimes.

As seen by Arabs, one fact stands out above all others: the wall of shame.

For the million and a half Arabs in Gaza, who are suffering so terribly, the only opening to the world that is not dominated by Israel is the border with Egypt. Only from there can food arrive to sustain life and medicaments to save the injured. This border remains closed at the height of the horror. The Egyptian army has blocked the only way for food and medicines to enter, while surgeons operate on the wounded without anesthetics.

Throughout the Arab world, from end to end, there echoed the words of Hassan Nasrallah: the leaders of Egypt are accomplices to the crime, they are collaborating with the “Zionist enemy” in trying to break the Palestinian people. It can be assumed that he did not mean only Mubarak, but also all the other leaders, from the king of Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian president. Seeing the demonstrations throughout the Arab world and listening to the slogans, one gets the impression that their leaders seem to many Arabs pathetic at best, and miserable collaborators at worst.

This will have historic consequences. A whole generation of Arab leaders, a generation imbued with the ideology of secular Arab nationalism, the successors of Gamal Abd-al-Nasser, Hafez al-Assad and Yasser Arafat, may be swept from the stage. In the Arab space, the only viable alternative is the ideology of Islamic fundamentalism.

This war is a writing on the wall: Israel is missing the historic chance of making peace with secular Arab nationalism. Tomorrow, It may be faced with a uniformly fundamentalist Arab world, Hamas multiplied by a thousand.

My taxi driver in Tel-Aviv the other day was thinking aloud: why not call up the sons of the ministers and members of the Knesset, form them into a combat unit and send them off to head the coming ground attack on Gaza?

Suff

munchester29 wrote: »

the fact that Hamas are Iranian puppets,

Is it's a must to have a side in order to point your finger at!??
it works well also on "Israel is an American puppet".

Over 600 (40 today) people died and over 2700 wonded and you're still defending it?

Any one making the slightest excuse for Israel and its war on Gazza doens't have a splinter of humanity in them.

Watch the Real news here: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

youcrazyjesus!

SectionF wrote: »

Sorry to interrupt the ego-driven point-scoring and the fetishising of military might. This from Gaza:

Shocking, just 1 story of hundreds of thousands. This was predicted 10 days ago. Shame on Israel.

Point scoring has become monotonous alright

The Saint

Selkies wrote: »

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Taken from the hamas charter.

That's lovely, now care to state where they said that they wanted to drive the Jews into the sea. I'm not going to go around in circles regarding the Hamas charter. I suggest you go back a few pages and read the discussion that has already been had on the subject.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Funny thing is, he is gay, and if he was living in Gaza, Hamas would have already shown him how cultured and open minded they are...

But thats somewhat like stating that because Hitler was a bastard, Stalin was a saint.....or vice versa.

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

That was somebody else.

ooops, sorry. I should really start concentrating on my work today

GuanYin

Selkies wrote: »

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Taken from the hamas charter.

Do you think they were teaching that at the United Nations-run school the Israelis just hit with an airstrike?

source

Lets strike em before they can pick up a gun? eh?

munchester29 wrote: »

That’s a matter of opinion. Sources you consider as biased can be considered as reliable by me and vice versa.

Actually no. Citing propaganda websites as a source could be considered soapboxing here and is expressly against the forum charter. Reference them sure, but to put a partizan website forward as a legitimate source won't hold water in this forum.

Selkies

Jack Bauer999 wrote: »

after the murder of Arafat

Say what?

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

But thats somewhat like stating that because Hitler was a bastard, Stalin was a saint.....or vice versa.

The strange thing to me was that he is supporting a group, that hates and kills people with his sexual orientation.
If he was a Palestinian, he would have had to either hide who he really is, or suffer the consequences, and it's just strange to me that the thought didn't seem to cross his mind - I know that if a certain group of people advocated and practiced the killing of all the people who are over 6ft tall, I don't think I would have supported them in anything, and it would have raised serious questions in my mind as to who these people really are and what they stand for.

Selkies

The Saint wrote: »

That's lovely, now care to state where they said that they wanted to drive the Jews into the sea. I'm not going to go around in circles regarding the Hamas charter. I suggest you go back a few pages and read the discussion that has already been had on the subject.

Sorry, I misread, I don't know what their plans are with the Israelis should they achieve their goal of destroying the state.

Also I make a point of reading the past 2/3 pages, I'm on a late lunch break, my time is limited, I can't read any more than that.

Suff

The world has spoken in unity against the aggression on Gazza labeling Israel as "mass murderer, state terrorism, war crimes... " while the only support came from the offices of politicians that has a long history of supporting the zionist state.

munchester29

GuanYin wrote: »

Do you think they were teaching that at the United Nations-run school the Israelis just hit with an airstrike?

source

Lets strike em before they can pick up a gun? eh?

You think it was intentional, I think it was by mistake.
The Israelis also managed to kill 4 of their own soldiers today – that was an accident. Maybe the school was an accident also?

What reason in the world would Israel have to bomb a UN run school, assuming this school was not used by Hamas as a weapons depot or staging area?

And I’ve said it before – this is war, crappy things happen in wars, innocent people get hurt on both sides, accidents happen, etc. War is not nice and it’s not symmetric.

GuanYin wrote: »

Actually no. Citing propaganda websites as a source could be considered soapboxing here and is expressly against the forum charter. Reference them sure, but to put a partizan website forward as a legitimate source won't hold water in this forum.

OK, I can accept that and I actually welcome the idea – a lot less nonsense to deal with.

Is there a list of propaganda sites that I can consult before I wrote posts or reply to posts?

Who decides what is a propaganda site? How can I add sites to that list?

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

ooops, sorry. I should really start concentrating on my work today

That was me and I've already replied.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

The strange thing to me was that he is supporting a group, that hates and kills people with his sexual orientation.

This is Johann Hari we're talking about.....?

munchester29

Suff wrote: »

The world has spoken in unity against the aggression on Gazza labeling Israel as "mass murderer, state terrorism, war crimes... " while the only support came from the offices of politicians that has a long history of supporting the zionist state.

Damn those Zionists!

And seriously - the same can be said about Hamas, you know.

And pleasssse - no links. I know you can show me links of Israeli condemnation, believe me I can show you the same in regards to the Hamas.
Let's pretend we have already done that...

munchester29

The Saint wrote: »

That was me and I've already replied.

I missed it and I'm really interested, can you post it again please?

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

This is Johann Hari we're talking about.....?

Yes

ionix5891

a question for everyone taking the Israeli side here


are all of the people killed so far are "Hamas"?


its quite a simple question, here are more questions for ya and every Israeli apologist here:

* if they are not how do you feel about civilians being killed?
* are "they" just "collateral damage"?
* how would you react if your friend or family member is killed by an F16 while hiding in a basement?
* do the little kids who died, who were born only few years ago "deserve it"?



so far all you trying to do is direct thread from the human suffering inflicted by Israel onto Hamas being terrorists

.

spiderdan

Iran may be funding a lot of Hamas but look at who's funding Israel and her neighbours!

The Americans has consistently given more foreign aid to Israel then any other country, 3 billion per year since 1979- 90% of which is spent on arms to crush Palestinians and Lebanese, not in defending its people but massacring civilians.

Egypt is next on the list!! buying off countries in the name of spreading democracy!! its all about strategic alliances and lanch pads into hosite middle eastern countries not on the pay roll- Iraq, Iran, Syria etc. not to mention Oil!

Israel has been and always will be a 51st state for the US.

Hold democratic elections and give the Palestinians their own democracy- oh wait the US didn't like that so we'll ignore the massacre like before....

http://tfclub.tripod.com/list.html

Vietnam, Congo, Nicaragua, Salvador, Indonesia, Panama, Iraq, Chile, etc etc