1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

GuanYin

munchester29 wrote: »

You think it was intentional, I think it was by mistake.
The Israelis also managed to kill 4 of their own soldiers today – that was an accident. Maybe the school was an accident also?

What reason in the world would Israel have to bomb a UN run school, assuming this school was not used by Hamas as a weapons depot or staging area?

Right. It was an accident.

To be fair, when you aim missiles and bombs in to civilian populated areas and
then *shock* kill civilians, I'm not entirely sure you can claim it an accident or mistake under any intelligent and rational definition.

Lets put things in perspective, if the USA went into Iraq and started blanket bombing civilian schools and houses, amassing the death count the Israelis have, do you think that they would have excuses made for them?

And I’ve said it before – this is war, crappy things happen in wars, innocent people get hurt on both sides, accidents happen, etc. War is not nice and it’s not symmetric.

A large heavily armed army, bombing the hell out of a small civilian populated area with a minority of enemy fighters, from which there is no escape, does not constitute a war by any reasonable definition.

It seems that the innocent people being hurt are all one side.

One thing is certain, in terms of US opinion, Israel are doing themselves no favors here. If Obama were to turn Americas back on Israel, he'd have alot of support (he won't though).

OK, I can accept that and I actually welcome the idea – a lot less nonsense to deal with.

Is there a list of propaganda sites that I can consult before I wrote posts or reply to posts?

Who decides what is a propaganda site? How can I add sites to that list?

With all due respect, if you cannot tell if a site is propaganda from reading it, then perhaps you shouldn't be debating online.

Suff

Israel will never be safe, no matter who backs it. As long as it has it's zionist identity there won't be peace.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

I missed it and I'm really interested, can you post it again please?

It's on the previous page
Linky

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Yes

He doesn't support Hamas.

Ciaran500

GuanYin wrote: »

Lets put things in perspective, if the USA went into Iraq and started blanket bombing civilian schools and houses, amassing the death count the Israelis have, do you think that they would have excuses made for them?

Are the Israeli's blanket bombing? Last I heard the UN said 75% of those dead are Hamas personnel.

ionix5891

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Are the Israeli's blanket bombing? Last I heard the UN said 75% of those dead are Hamas personnel.

citation needed

Gangsta

ionix5891 wrote: »

a question for everyone taking the Israeli side here


are all of the people killed so far are "Hamas"?


its quite a simple question, here are more questions for ya and every Israeli apologist here:

* if they are not how do you feel about civilians being killed?
* are "they" just "collateral damage"?
* how would you react if your friend or family member is killed by an F16 while hiding in a basement?
* do the little kids who died, who were born only few years ago "deserve it"?



so far all you trying to do is direct thread from the human suffering inflicted by Israel onto Hamas being terrorists

.

But Israel are aiming to kill just the terrorists that comprise the organisation Hamas. Anyone else slaughtered and brutally murdered is just an accident and unintentional. I mean, anyone could mistake a school/hospital/university for a secret Hamas arms depot. Those sneaky terrorists!! I wouldn't like it if my family were killed in 'war' but lets face it, this is a war and war is not nice.
Those little kids who died don't deserve it and maybe Hamas should think about them next time they fire a gazillion petrol bombs and rocks at Israeli troops and into Israel.

meditraitor

This doesnt take the most recent child murders into account but it shows exactly the dispraportionate amount of violance the Isrealis have been using! and no matter what the zionist apologists on boards say it wont deflect from the FACT that this is nothing short of a genocide........

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d90d845776b7af85256d08006f3ae9/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument

Ciaran500

ionix5891 wrote: »

citation needed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809699.stm
The UN has warned of a worsening humanitarian crisis, and believes 25% of more than 400 Palestinians killed by Israel so far were civilians.

Ok, its a couple of days old but I doubt it has changed that much.

Suff

munchester29 wrote: »

And pleasssse - no links. I know you can show me links of Israeli condemnation, believe me I can show you the same in regards to the Hamas.

Honestly, ....you can hardly compare Israel's actions to Hamas!

ionix5891

ok thanks for link so the poor bastards who are in that 25% are basically in the wrong place at the wrong time

i can see it now

"lets drop a bomb from our fighter plane a few miles up, and if any children die, will just use the olde "collateral damage" euphemism"


i am shocked that people have become so desensitized to murder, shame on yee :mad:


this is not war, in a war you have 2 armies who are wearing uniforms and are more or less evenly matched, this is using a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito, which brings onto another point, who is to say that the young boys who's friends or parents were killed in this wont form the next "Hamas" few years down the road, tho maybe thats Israel's plan all along, they need a boogeyman to keep the money supply from the US flowing

Praetorian

I always feel like Israel wants to get someone back for the horrific things that happened Jews in the past. Personally I think they are cowards & I have absolutely no support for their actions. They are the biggest military power in the region, they enjoy flexing their muscle & they know they aren't ever going to be in a fair fight because of their military daddy, the USA. I know a few Israeli’s & some of them believe they should do an Alexander on the Gaza strip and wipe them all out, if they could get away with it of course. I believe a lot of Israelis I’ve met in the past are indoctrinated in the army & they have become very cold people.

I think a peaceful political solution is possible with a heavy emphasis on educating the Palestinians. I always remember our own recent history with Northern Ireland & I could never have imagined the British killing so indiscriminately, with such imprecise use of powerful weaponry. Jet’s mortars tanks battleships attack helicopters vs. what, a rabble of poorly trained terrorists? It makes me sick.

BlaasForRafa

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hamas is using the cover of the war to further silence any opposition in their fiefdom by kneecapping Fatah sympathisers.

Ciaran500

ionix5891 wrote: »

ok thanks for link so the poor bastards who are in that 25% are basically in the wrong place at the wrong time

i can see it now

"lets drop a bomb from our fighter plane a few miles up, and if any children die, will just use the olde "collateral damage" euphemism"


i am shocked that people have become so desensitized to murder, shame on yee :mad:

Hang the **** on.

No one is saying that the civilian casualties are a good thing. If you asked any of the "Israeli sympathisers":rolleyes: what they think of the casualties they won't praising Israel for that.

munchester29

ionix5891 wrote: »

a question for everyone taking the Israeli side here


are all of the people killed so far are "Hamas"?


its quite a simple question, here are more questions for ya and every Israeli apologist here:

* if they are not how do you feel about civilians being killed?
* are "they" just "collateral damage"?
* how would you react if your friend or family member is killed by an F16 while hiding in a basement?
* do the little kids who died, who were born only few years ago "deserve it"?



so far all you trying to do is direct thread from the human suffering inflicted by Israel onto Hamas being terrorists

.

I’ll answer:

No, not all the people killed are from Hamas, there are innocent civilians who were killed, men, women & children. I don’t think anyone contests that.

My feeling about civilians getting killed – I feel very bad about it. I don’t think that any of the civilians killed deserved it (on both sides).

They are not just “collateral damage”. They are first of all human beings.

My reaction would be the same as if my friend or family member died in a suicide bombing or from a Hamas rocket – I would be sad and angry

The little kids don’t deserve to die, they don’t deserve to suffer. On both sides.

You seem to ignore the fact that civilians die on both sides. I know that there are more deaths on the Palestinian side, but that is because of the nature of the conflict, and the strengths and weaknesses of both sides involved.

I do believe that if the Palestinians had the Israeli firepower and capabilities, we would have seen the end of Israel already, with casualty numbers much higher than the ones the Israelis are causing. But that’s my opinion.


I do have a few questions for you also:
* How do you feel about firing rockets into civilian populations?
* How do you feel about suicide bombers and the men who send them?
* How do you feel about schools & hospitals being used as staging grounds for rocket fire, or as weapons and explosives depots?
* How do you feel about children who are trained to be suicide bombers?
* How do you feel about summer camps where children learn how to use guns and hate their neighbours?
* How do you feel about armed forces using civilians as humans shields?

Suff

Praetorian wrote: »

. Jet’s mortars tanks battleships attack helicopters vs. what, a rabble of poorly trained terrorists? It makes me sick.

I agree with all points of your post, however ..I would not agree on calling Hamas terrorists. They have been democratically and directly elected by their people. Only Israel and it's supporters didn't agree on them being in power so now they have been labled terrorists, Israel has kidnaped and jailed the majority of the palastinain Parliament. Now Israel is bombing the world's biggest open air prison!

Ciaran500

Suff wrote: »

Only Israel and it's supporters didn't agree on them being in power so now they have been labled terrorists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan. Australia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Darragh29

Sure the little girl in this picture is such a theat to Israel, isn't she!?!?!?! The people who do this to civilians are SCUMBAGS, I'm personally writing to our Minister for Foreign Affairs as I write here and asking for our embassador to be recalled from Israel immediately.

munchester29

GuanYin wrote: »

Right. It was an accident.

To be fair, when you aim missiles and bombs in to civilian populated areas and
then *shock* kill civilians, I'm not entirely sure you can claim it an accident or mistake under any intelligent and rational definition.

Israel is not shock killing civilians. It does the maximum it can to avoid hurting civilians. Accidents do happen in warfare. Today Israel killed 4 of its own soldiers in error (tank shell), so according to your logic that was intentional also?

GuanYin wrote: »

Lets put things in perspective, if the USA went into Iraq and started blanket bombing civilian schools and houses, amassing the death count the Israelis have, do you think that they would have excuses made for them?

If Israel was blanket bombing in Gaza, you would have seen tens of thousands of dead there, if not more. Israel tries to be as precise as possible, but if Hamas has a rocket firing staging area in the back of a school, or if they stockpile on explosives in a hospital then it’s a problem – but in my opinion, Hamas is to blame when things like that happen, since they are not even trying to protect their own people.

GuanYin wrote: »

A large heavily armed army, bombing the hell out of a small civilian populated area with a minority of enemy fighters, from which there is no escape, does not constitute a war by any reasonable definition.

Well, I can think of at least a few examples (the Dresden bombings in WWII for one) that beg to differ.

GuanYin wrote: »

It seems that the innocent people being hurt are all one side.

No, people die on the Israeli side also, but world opinion and media is only occupied by “symmetrical numbers” nonsense.

GuanYin wrote: »

With all due respect, if you cannot tell if a site is propaganda from reading it, then perhaps you shouldn't be debating online.

I would argue that defining a site as a propaganda site largely depends on your private opinion, and not on any subjective criteria.
For example, I’m sure you think that Al Jazeera is not a propaganda site, while I think it is most of the time.

Manic Moran

SectionF wrote: »

Sorry to interrupt the ego-driven point-scoring and the fetishising of military might. This from Gaza:

He's texting the wrong people. He needs to go around the corner to his local Hamas representative and say "Look at what this resistance is causing. Get on the radio and say 'We surrender.' It's the traditionally accepted method of getting someone bigger than you to stop blowing you up, and it's nearly instantaneous. What good is further resistance doing?"

Even professional militaries will surrender when further resistance is useless.

NTM

munchester29

Darragh29 wrote: »

Sure the little girl in this picture is such a theat to Israel, isn't she!?!?!?! The people who do this to civilians are SCUMBAGS, I'm personally writing to our Minister for Foreign Affairs as I write here and asking for our embassador to be recalled from Israel immediately.

Well, here is one of the reasons children die there:

GuanYin

Ciaran500 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809699.stm
The UN has warned of a worsening humanitarian crisis, and believes 25% of more than 400 Palestinians killed by Israel so far were civilians.

Ok, its a couple of days old but I doubt it has changed that much.

Ahhh I think that will be dependent on your definition of civilian.

Israelis are counting anyone in a state position as a target by some accounts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm

40 police officers cannot be considered a "military target" by any impartial observer.

I have no love of Hamas but what Israel are doing is just plain wrong.

horseflesh

meditraitor wrote: »

This doesnt take the most recent child murders into account but it shows exactly the dispraportionate amount of violance the Isrealis have been using! and no matter what the zionist apologists on boards say it wont deflect from the FACT that this is nothing short of a genocide........

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d90d845776b7af85256d08006f3ae9/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument

The only FACT is that you clearly have no idea what the definition of genocide is.

concussion

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, here is one of the reasons children die there:

Here's another, from the news article about the Norweigan doctors

With Hamas’s die-hard fighters taking cover among a terrified civilian population, there is nowhere to run.

meditraitor

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, here is one of the reasons children die there:

and here are the people doing the murdering


your heroes ;- )

Darragh29

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, here is one of the reasons children die there:

We know enough about disputes in this country to know that you cannot bomb or shoot your way to peace. When the armed man in your picture can live a normal life and is not living his life in repression, he will not have a need to pick up a weapon. Unfortunately the Israeli people are too intransigent to be able to understand this, like most planter communities are.

It's funny, how come nobody from www.mideasttruth.com has asked, "why is that man wearing a balaclava and holding a gun and shooting at someone"???

These are the uncomfortable questions that people who genuinely want to find peace, have to eventually ask.

Suff

munchester29 wrote: »

I do have a few questions for you also:
* How do you feel about firing rockets into civilian populations?
* How do you feel about suicide bombers and the men who send them?
* How do you feel about schools & hospitals being used as staging grounds for rocket fire, or as weapons and explosives depots?
* How do you feel about children who are trained to be suicide bombers?
* How do you feel about summer camps where children learn how to use guns and hate their neighbours?
* How do you feel about armed forces using civilians as humans shields?

I'll answer:

- I feel the same way accept I feel much worst when Israel use HEAVY bombs over civilian populations, like we see today in Gazza and in 2006 in Lebanon and in 1980's in Lebanon and Palastine.

- This is a desperate act to fight the oppressor, Nothing can be said in defence for such an act. But give them the same level of arms then it's a fair fight and you won't have suicide bomers anymore.

-This is a well known Israeli propaganda, No prof have been put forward to back it up, its used to demolish the Palastinain infrastructure including places of worship (Christian and Muslim).

- Children are NEVER used for such horrendous act!!!...please provide solid links for your statments.

- I feel the same way when I see Israeli Army camps training Children to hate, fight, attack and kill their neighbours (Palastine, Lebanon, Syria).


-Where do you get this from!?? they defend their people, the whole purpose of Hamas, fateh and the rest of them, is to save and preserve the Palastinain identity from all Israeli attempts to erase it. Hamas, Fateh or whatever you want are not foreign groups, they are Palastinain, The civilians human shield you speak of are their families!!!

GuanYin

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel is not shock killing civilians. It does the maximum it can to avoid hurting civilians. Accidents do happen in warfare. Today Israel killed 4 of its own soldiers in error (tank shell), so according to your logic that was intentional also?

They targeted the interior ministry, the state financial office and police stations. These are 1) not military targets and 2) located in civilian areas.

You cannot bomb these without killing civilians and I would contest that there is any reason to bomb these targets.

Your comparison is flat out ridiculous, those killed in friendly fire died in the line of duty, a consequence of military action. The deaths were accidental.

You CANNOT bomb a civilian state office and then call the civilian casualties accidental.

If Israel was blanket bombing in Gaza, you would have seen tens of thousands of dead there, if not more. Israel tries to be as precise as possible, but if Hamas has a rocket firing staging area in the back of a school, or if they stockpile on explosives in a hospital then it’s a problem – but in my opinion, Hamas is to blame when things like that happen, since they are not even trying to protect their own people.

Oh well thast OK then, so long as they only needlessly kill a few civilians :rolleyes:

As for being precise, they targetted Police cadets in training for first aid and civil order (source in BBC link above from an Israeli human rights group). Sure it was precise, it was still wrong.

Well, I can think of at least a few examples (the Dresden bombings in WWII for one) that beg to differ.

The Dresden bombing was a strategic act in part of a lager pan global conflict. There is no logical comparison.

No, people die on the Israeli side also, but world opinion and media is only occupied by “symmetrical numbers” nonsense.

I don't care how many soldiers die. I care when police, doctors, nurses, teachers, women and children die. And they are only dying on one side.

I would argue that defining a site as a propaganda site largely depends on your private opinion, and not on any subjective criteria.
For example, I’m sure you think that Al Jazeera is not a propaganda site, while I think it is most of the time.

Don't pretend to know what I think.

If you want to risk pumping propaganda sites here, don't say you weren't warned.

Praetorian

Suff wrote: »

I agree with all points of your post, however ..I would not agree on calling Hamas terrorists. They have been democratically and directly elected by their people. Only Israel and it's supporters didn't agree on them being in power so now they have been labled terrorists, Israel has kidnaped and jailed the majority of the palastinain Parliament. Now Israel is bombing the world's biggest open air prison!

I don't know if terrorist's is the correct term for them. I don't agree with them lobbing rockets over the border. The only possible way I could possibly feel anything for them is if they stuck to attacking military targets. A lot of what they do is wrong, but the Israeli's are worse. Israel is a proper educated state or so they pretend to be, they should know better.

munchester29

meditraitor wrote: »

and here are the people doing the murdering


your heroes ;- )

What's the connection? address what you see in the picture - Terrorists in combat who brought htier kids with them because they didn't have a nanny...