1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

meditraitor

horseflesh wrote: »

The only FACT is that you clearly have no idea what the definition of genocide is.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group

That about describes what Isreal has being doing for the last 40 years to its fellow non jew humans in palestine.

munchester29

horseflesh wrote: »

The only FACT is that you clearly have no idea what the definition of genocide is.

Actually, you seem to be the one who doesn't know what it means:

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

So you see, according to this definition, Hamas is committing genocide against Israel, and against their own people also.

Darragh29

meditraitor wrote: »

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group

That about describes what Isreal has being doing for the last 40 years to its fellow non jew humans in palestine.

My view on this is that anywhere you see an army firing on civilians, no matter what the justification, you are dealing with a failed government.

Suff

munchester29 wrote: »

So you see, according to this definition, Hamas is committing genocide against Israel, and against their own people also.

Please..., your arguments are becoming pathetic :mad:

meditraitor

munchester29 wrote: »

What's the connection? address what you see in the picture - Terrorists in combat who brought htier kids with them because they didn't have a nanny...

They dont have a nanny because the IDF murdered her !

munchester29

Darragh29 wrote: »

We know enough about disputes in this country to know that you cannot bomb or shoot your way to peace. When the armed man in your picture can live a normal life and is not living his life in repression, he will not have a need to pick up a weapon. Unfortunately the Israeli people are too intransigent to be able to understand this, like most planter communities are.

It's funny, how come nobody from www.mideasttruth.com has asked, "why is that man wearing a balaclava and holding a gun and shooting at someone"???

These are the uncomfortable questions that people who genuinely want to find peace, have to eventually ask.

I’m not questioning his military activity – I’m questioning the morals of a people who purposefully and intentionally put their children in the line of fire, so they can complain to the world about the Israeli “children killers”

The fact that you don’t think that what is shown in this picture is wrong and might contribute to the civilian casualty list, speaks volumes.

munchester29

Suff wrote: »

Please..., your arguments are becoming pathetic :mad:

My thoughts about your arguments exactly.

munchester29

Suff wrote: »

I'll answer:

- I feel the same way accept I feel much worst when Israel use HEAVY bombs over civilian populations, like we see today in Gazza and in 2006 in Lebanon and in 1980's in Lebanon and Palastine.

- This is a desperate act to fight the oppressor, Nothing can be said in defence for such an act. But give them the same level of arms then it's a fair fight and you won't have suicide bomers anymore.

-This is a well known Israeli propaganda, No prof have been put forward to back it up, its used to demolish the Palastinain infrastructure including places of worship (Christian and Muslim).

- Children are NEVER used for such horrendous act!!!...please provide solid links for your statments.

- I feel the same way when I see Israeli Army camps training Children to hate, fight, attack and kill their neighbours (Palastine, Lebanon, Syria).


-Where do you get this from!?? they defend their people, the whole purpose of Hamas, fateh and the rest of them, is to save and preserve the Palastinain identity from all Israeli attempts to erase it. Hamas, Fateh or whatever you want are not foreign groups, they are Palastinain, The civilians human shield you speak of are their families!!!

You seem to have good intentions, but you seem misinformed.

I’ve covered many of the questions and points you raise before, so I’ll just comment on:

“- Children are NEVER used for such horrendous act!!!...please provide solid links for your statements”

I will just put one link here that should provide the proof you want. If that is not enough, I can actually put links to children wearing explosives belts, carrying weapons, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

Darragh29

munchester29 wrote: »

I’m not questioning his military activity – I’m questioning the morals of a people who purposefully and intentionally put their children in the line of fire, so they can complain to the world about the Israeli “children killers”

The fact that you don’t think that what is shown in this picture is wrong and might contribute to the civilian casualty list, speaks volumes.

I see a greater wrong in the picture. The problem with the picture is not that there are children in it, the problem clearly is that the man is holding a gun and shooting it at someone. Whether the children were there or not, he would still be there with a balaclava and a gun shooting at his enemy.

The path to peace will eventually require someone to ask in all honesty, why is he holding a gun and wearing a balaclava and shooting at his enemy??? Forget everything else here for a minute except that. Why is that man holding a gun and not at home with his kids doing their homework??? These are the hard questions that the Israeli people will not ask themselves, because they find the answer to that question unpalatable.

Suff

munchester29 wrote: »

I will just put one link here that should provide the proof you want. If that is not enough, I can actually put links to children wearing explosives belts, carrying weapons, etc.

They were 17 years old, one year younger than half of Israel's army force age group. The images and photos of the younger children wearing explosives are sent as a threat to Israel. Have you ever thought as why they do this????

sceptre

Suff wrote: »

They were 17 years old, one year younger than half of Israel's army force age group.

I can see links on that page from reputable sources talking about 14 year olds. And unsubstantiated claims of an eleven year old. Down the page, past the 17 year olds.

Ciaran500

Suff wrote: »

They were 17 years old, one year younger than half of Israel's army force age group. The images and photos of the younger children wearing explosives are sent as a threat to Israel. Have you ever thought as why they do this????

The people listed on that list are 11-17 year olds...

munchester29

GuanYin wrote: »

They targeted the interior ministry, the state financial office and police stations. These are 1) not military targets and 2) located in civilian areas.

The Hamas is the Palestinian government. These buildings are government buildings, therefore valid targets. Almost Everything in Gaza is located in civilian areas.

GuanYin wrote: »

You cannot bomb these without killing civilians and I would contest that there is any reason to bomb these targets.

Warfare is nasty, civilians get hurt. You might not like it, you might try to reduce civilian casualties, but you can’t have a war without people being killed. Hamas should have thought of that before they attacked Israel.

GuanYin wrote: »

Your comparison is flat out ridiculous, those killed in friendly fire died in the line of duty, a consequence of military action. The deaths were accidental.

Thing is, I made no comparison – somebody said that Israel intentionally targets civilians and that these things can’t be considered accidents, thus enforcing his claim that Israel targets civilians deliberately.
I gave an example for an accident which refutes the claim that such accidents do not happen.

GuanYin wrote: »

Oh well thast OK then, so long as they only needlessly kill a few civilians :rolleyes:

Not what I said.

GuanYin wrote: »

As for being precise, they targetted Police cadets in training for first aid and civil order (source in BBC link above from an Israeli human rights group). Sure it was precise, it was still wrong.

You mean Hamas cadets?

From the same article in the link:
“Analysts say Hamas policemen are responsible for quashing dissent and rooting out spies, as well as tackling crime and directing traffic.”

GuanYin wrote: »

The Dresden bombing was a strategic act in part of a lager pan global conflict. There is no logical comparison.

Exactly the same – Israel is fighting the Hamas terrorists (strategic act) in part of a larger pan global conflict (The fight against fundamentalist Islamic terrorism).

GuanYin wrote: »

I don't care how many soldiers die. I care when police, doctors, nurses, teachers, women and children die. And they are only dying on one side.

Again, not true. Although the losses are much higher on the Palestinian side, doctors, nurses, teachers, women and children die on the Israeli side too.

GuanYin wrote: »

Don't pretend to know what I think.


If you want to risk pumping propaganda sites here, don't say you weren't warned.

Ok, still, can you give me examples (at least) of propaganda sites? I really can’t understand how you expect people to know what’s propaganda and what’s not.

Suff

Ciaran500 wrote: »

The people listed on that list are 11-17 year olds...

Ok, but still....why are they doing this????????

munchester29

Darragh29 wrote: »

I see a greater wrong in the picture. The problem with the picture is not that there are children in it, the problem clearly is that the man is holding a gun and shooting it at someone. Whether the children were there or not, he would still be there with a balaclava and a gun shooting at his enemy.

The path to peace will eventually require someone to ask in all honesty, why is he holding a gun and wearing a balaclava and shooting at his enemy??? Forget everything else here for a minute except that. Why is that man holding a gun and not at home with his kids doing their homework??? These are the hard questions that the Israeli people will not ask themselves, because they find the answer to that question unpalatable.

Well, I have an answer for your "why" questions.

Because he is a terrorist who wants the whole of the state of Israel to himself. Nothing else matters to him, nothing else interests him.
He has blatant disregard to human life, as evidenced by his blatant disregard to the lives of the children next to him.

Ciaran500

Suff wrote: »

Ok, but still....why are they doing this????????

Are you trying to justify suicide bombing?

Suff

munchester29 wrote: »

Because he is a terrorist who wants the whole of the state of Israel to himself. Nothing else matters to him, nothing else interests him.
He has blatant disregard to human life, as evidenced by his blatant disregard to the lives of the children next to him.

You just gave a perfect definition of Israel!!

sceptre

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Are you trying to justify suicide bombing?

One can seek to rationalise or understand something without seeking to justify it.

dawgie2009

Gangsta wrote: »

Israelis only value Israeli lives and kill anyone in their path, whether it be Palestinian, English or even American people. It just so happens that Palestinians are the dominant population in Gaza.

... and I'm sure you'd have some basis in reality to these nonsense, wouldn't you now? or is it just like these sayings: "Israeli soldiers rape poor palestinian women, they'd prefer American, but too bad Palestinians are the dominant population in Gaza"?

dawgie2009

Suff wrote: »

You just gave a perfect definition of Israel!!

Did you pick it up somewhere or you came up with it yourself?

Darragh29

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, I have an answer for your "why" questions.

Because he is a terrorist who wants the whole of the state of Israel to himself. Nothing else matters to him, nothing else interests him.
He has blatant disregard to human life, as evidenced by his blatant disregard to the lives of the children next to him.

And I suppose the reason he is wearing a balaclava and shooting a machine gun at his enemy, would be nothing to do with the fact that he is basically living in a city full of refugees with rationed clean water, relying on UN food aid, poor sanitation, no electricity, fuel shortages, he has no future, his children have no future, he is living in poverty and so is his family.

When you resolve these issues, or even just allow this man to resolve these issues for himself, you will find that he will have better things to do with his life than take up arms against his enemy.

You should open your mind a little to the suffering of other people and set aside for a few minutes, the indoctrination that you have clearly been exposed to.

The people you are speaking for here are starting to appear like Nazi's in relation to their treatment of the Palestinian people. An organisation that I imagine the Jewish people of all races would be trying to avoid being associated with...

Danuogma

munchester29 wrote: »

The Hamas is the Palestinian government. These buildings are government buildings, therefore valid targets. Almost Everything in Gaza is located in civilian areas.

By that logic every government building in Israel is also a valid target for Hamas. Of course if an Israeli gov building was attacked the likes of yourself would be wetting their trousers and screaming "terrorism". Doublethink: look it up.

Warfare is nasty, civilians get hurt. You might not like it, you might try to reduce civilian casualties, but you can’t have a war without people being killed. Hamas should have thought of that before they attacked Israel.

Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4th when they killed six Palestinians, they also had Gaza under siege. Get your facts straight before you spread your bogus propaganda, otherwise you will look a little silly.

Exactly the same – Israel is fighting the Hamas terrorists (strategic act) in part of a larger pan global conflict (The fight against fundamentalist Islamic terrorism).

The phantom enemy, haha. The "war on terror" is nothing but an excuse to terrorise and exploit, that is blatantly obvious to anyone with a working brain.

Again, not true. Although the losses are much higher on the Palestinian side, doctors, nurses, teachers, women and children die on the Israeli side too.

Nuff said.

dawgie2009

Darragh29 wrote: »

And I suppose the reason he is wearing a balaclava and shooting a machine gun at his enemy, would be nothing to do with the fact that he is basically living in a city full of refugees with rationed clean water, relying on UN food aid, poor sanitation, no electricity, fuel shortages, he has no future, his children have no future, he is living in poverty and so is his family.

When you resolve these issues, or even just allow this man to resolve these issues for himself, you will find that he will have better things to do with his life than take up arms against his enemy.

You should open your mind a little to the suffering of other people and set aside for a few minutes, the indoctrination that you have clearly been exposed to.

The people you are speaking for here are starting to appear like Nazi's in relation to their treatment of the Palestinian people. An organisation that I imagine the Jewish people of all races would be trying to avoid being associated with...

Nazis killed jews for being jews, remember? or was it a jewish scam too? Israel have no intention of killing palestinians for being such, it never asked hamas to fire misiles on its southern borders for 8 years, not to mention the suicide bombers. The use of the term nazis against Israel is mostly shameful towards those who use it and express their ignorance. So unless you have some good argument why defending their country is a nazi act, this is just stupidity. On the otherhand, Islamic Jihad is exactly hate toward someone for not being Muslim.

Did you ever wonder why they still live in refugee camps? with so much Arab oil money? is it a problem of money? did Israel prevent them from building modern neighborhoods? or is it that their goverment preferred spending this good money on buying more and more weapons and amo?

Mal-Adjusted

dawgie2009 wrote: »

Did you pick it up somewhere or you came up with it yourself?

it was a sound description. mocking his response won't mask that:rolleyes:

quattro777

dawgie2009 wrote:

Great, another GIYUS troll.

Quote
Did you ever wonder why they still live in refugee camps?


Because Israel has been stealing their land and have them imprisoned in a ghetto.
Where else can they go?

Quote
Did Israel prevent them from building modern neighborhoods?

What would be the point? when the IDF come along and flatten everthing. Millions of euro have been spent in Palestine on infrastructure projects most of which is now useless.

Quote
The use of the term nazis against Israel is mostly shameful towards those who use it and express their ignorance.

But its ok for an Israeli army General to advocte the use of nazi tactics?
The moment you criticise Israel your a nazi, nice. When all else fails play the anti-semite card. Israel's actions in Palestine bear some chilling similarities to what happened in WW2. Considering the horrific events the Jewish people went through during that time you would imagine they of all people would have some compassion for the plight of others.

TOMASJ

After watching what the IDF did today, and their feeble attempts to blame hamas fighters, by --wait for it ,--naming two hamas members as the culprits in the Murder of dozens of innocent people who were supposedly under UN protection in a SCHOOL, these unfortunate people had been driven from their homes by IDF (smart bombs)
never heard a s*it excuse like it in my life (on first name terms with the enemy)
Israel has lost all credibility the world over
only a Moran would now be in agreement with the Israelis after this foul Murder

GuanYin

munchester29 wrote: »

The Hamas is the Palestinian government. These buildings are government buildings, therefore valid targets. Almost Everything in Gaza is located in civilian areas.

So if it is a war and Israel can go after Government buildings then I assume you believe that Israeli government building are valid targets for Hamas bombers?

Lets just be clear, you feel that Hamas are justified in going after Israeli state buildings (ie. non military)? That is what you are sayng? If not, why is it ok for Israel and not Hamas?

Warfare is nasty, civilians get hurt. You might not like it, you might try to reduce civilian casualties, but you can’t have a war without people being killed. Hamas should have thought of that before they attacked Israel.

Wooooah! Israel is an internationally recognized occupying force in a territory that is not theirs. They broke a ceasefire which started this.

I wonder should the Irish rebels have thought twice about attacking the mighty British empire?

I guess all the Irish deaths at the hands of the british are justified.

Thing is, I made no comparison – somebody said that Israel intentionally targets civilians and that these things can’t be considered accidents, thus enforcing his claim that Israel targets civilians deliberately.
I gave an example for an accident which refutes the claim that such accidents do not happen.

You offered a comparitive scenario and suggested the same logic applied. It doesn't. Friendly fire and irresponsible targetting are not the same. One is policy driven, the other is human error.

You mean Hamas cadets?

From the same article in the link:
“Analysts say Hamas policemen are responsible for quashing dissent and rooting out spies, as well as tackling crime and directing traffic.”

I really hope you aren't the poster who claimed someone wasn't reading articles fully?

Nice selective quoting.Read a line further down the BBC article.

"But the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, which has raised the issue in a letter to Israel’s attorney general, says it appears those killed were being trained in first aid, human rights and maintaining public order. "

So independent, non-military Israelis are saying their country argetted a non-military police force. Police are still civilians.

Exactly the same – Israel is fighting the Hamas terrorists (strategic act) in part of a larger pan global conflict (The fight against fundamentalist Islamic terrorism).

Give me a break, there is absolutey no comparison. If you want to equate the current "war on terror" with WWII then I think you would find some very good arguments that the US and Israel would not equate the roles of the Allies.

One might argue that if the US ad Israel weren't occupying lands and bombing civilians there may not even be a need for a "war on terror".

Again, not true. Although the losses are much higher on the Palestinian side, doctors, nurses, teachers, women and children die on the Israeli side too.

Maybe, but in noway near the same numbers.

Ok, still, can you give me examples (at least) of propaganda sites? I really can’t understand how you expect people to know what’s propaganda and what’s not.

No, because I thnk you'd try use it as a definitive list of sites in order to circumvent the policy of forbidding soapboxing.

As I said, if you dont know, you shouldn't be here, or at least, you're too partizan to be debating in a reasoned manner.

Steviemak

Anyone trying to justify the terrorising and killing of innocent people should be ashamed of themselves. I despair sometimes at how easily propaganda can be so believed by so many. A lie isn't a side of a story. Its just a lie.

Forget the news and editorials and just imagine the situation as it pertains to you as a human being. How would you cope living in the situation these poor people find themselves in. I know I would be so broken I could barely live. I still cry watching news archives of my fellow countrymen being gunned down by the British Army and blown up on the streets by the IRA. Although it didn't happen to me it still scars. So God only knows what the innocent men, women and children of Gaza are going through everyday.

The only hope I have is that in the history of the world people always overcome tyranny. We over came the British, the blacks overcame slavery, the Jews overcame the Nazis, the South Africans overcame apartheid, the eastern Europeans overcame communism and the Palestinians will overcome occupation. Peace will come to Israel and Palestine because it is the right cause. If the poor people of Israel want a future with the Palestinians they need to see that making peace with their neighbours is the only way anyone can survive. The minute the US and EU can no longer support Israel I fear what will happen to them in that region unless they wise up and start realising that their people and the Palestinians deserve so much better than the current direction the country has taken.

All my thoughts tonight are with the innocent men, women and children of Gaza. They don't deserve this.

Manic Moran

Lets just be clear, you feel that Hamas are justified in going after Israeli state buildings (ie. non military)?

I think that is probably a fair assessment. And I would be more than willing to believe that the Israelis think it's a threat as well, I'd be very surprised if you can go to any government building in Israel without being subjected to some form of scrutiny, either overt or covert.

For Irish purposes, however, it is worth noting that acceptable places to have a battle in Ireland include the customs office, Dublin castle, police barracks, and courthouses. The most celebrated act in modern Irish history was a battle in a post office. Not a purely military objective, yet not many people will be found to call it a war crime in the history books today. In fact, it's hard to find even a proverbial finger-wagging.

only a Moran would now be in agreement with the Israelis after this foul Murder

Well, someone's got to do it!

NTM

youcrazyjesus!

TOMASJ wrote: »

After watching what the IDF did today, and their feeble attempts to blame hamas fighters, by --wait for it ,--naming two hamas members as the culprits in the Murder of dozens of innocent people who were supposedly under UN protection in a SCHOOL, these unfortunate people had been driven from their homes by IDF (smart bombs)

Not only that, the UN gave the IDF GPS coordinates and marked the building as a civilian area. Given Israel's previous form, investigations state Israel has deliberately shelled civilians in acts of pure terrorism, this attack should be investigated and Ehud Olmert and the rest of his terrorist cabinet should be sent to The Hague to face trial if there is evidence.

This is an immoral act and a crime and terrorism, Beslan, I can't believe people are justifying it, you can still stay on Israel's side and say "look it was wrong and nothing justifies it" but nobody does. They cling on to the flimsiest of excuses and argue mindlessly on Israel's behalf excusing it and justifying the most ugly form of murder. Anybody with a brain can see through it. I've spoken to a few people today about, people who ordinarily wouldn't know what was going on in the world, but they've heard about this and are disgusted. If this is proved to be the case on a wide scale then Israel has shot itself in the foot, it will backfire badly. There are precedents for this in our own history.

Shame on Israel and shame on anybody justifying the slaughter of civilians sheltering in a school.