1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

ionix5891

just out of interest

did our useless government make any noise about these events?

CK.1

ionix5891 wrote: »

just out of interest

did our useless government make any noise about these events?

Chris Andrews called for the Irish Government (of which he is a part) to expel the Israeli Ambassador from Ireland....not very widely reported, I think I heard it on a Newstalk bulletin but here is the only link I could find to it:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90435

SectionF

Micheál Martin has condemned the attacks quite unequivocally, in contrast to the mealy-mouthed responses of some other European governments.

SectionF

Ciaran500 wrote: »

People are getting so anti Israel it seems that Hamas can do no wrong.

How simplistic can you get? Of course Hamas can do wrong, and do, and they stand for a horrible, regressive set of beliefs. That doesn't excuse the brutal response of the Israelis.

If Israel dealt with Palestinians in Gaza in a civilized fashion, instead of treating the territory as a prison, Hamas would have much less support. Instead, with their US and UK-backed brutality and ignorance, they are giving extremism sustenance that will last generations.

ionix5891

maybe it suits Israel to have a "boogeyman" to continue receiving billions in US military Aid

the politics of fear is quite a force, as we have learned from our dear friend Bush



anwyays I decided to do some digging

can someone help me find the # dead due to the conflict on israeli side in 2008, so far it seems about a dozen by reading wikipedia


this is what I dug up for # dead in car accidents in Israel for 2008 on their central statistics website




so it seems to me cars are more dangerous than Hamas :eek:

edanto

CK.1 wrote: »

Chris Andrews called for the Irish Government (of which he is a part) to expel the Israeli Ambassador from Ireland....not very widely reported, I think I heard it on a Newstalk bulletin but here is the only link I could find to it:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90435

It was also 'reported' on the letters page of the Irish Times where Chris Andrews wrote an open letter calling for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador. He might appreciate an email of support from you if you could take the time. He's one of my local TDs, and I've already been in touch.

edanto

ionix5891 wrote: »

so it seems to me cars are more dangerous than Hamas :eek:

That is very amusing research! It shows just how much Israel overemphasise Hamas agression.

We can't deny how awful it must be for the people in southern Israel to live in fear, but they really only have their own governments landgrabbing policies to blame.

And the most ironic thing is that the position that the Israelis have taken

“Israel was compelled to resort to a military operation after many weeks –– and indeed months and years –– in which its civilians were subjected to deliberate terrorist attacks carried out by Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist organizations operating from the Gaza Strip,”

is validating any attacks that Hamas might make. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The Israeli position justifies any military action by Hamas by saying that Hamas is entitled to strike at any organisation (Israel) which has made any military attacks on it's land.

It's a crying shame.

Jack Bauer999

edanto wrote: »

It was also 'reported' on the letters page of the Irish Times where Chris Andrews wrote an open letter calling for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador. He might appreciate an email of support from you if you could take the time. He's one of my local TDs, and I've already been in touch.

+1

what email address did you use?

edanto

Ah seriously, how lazy are you?! I'll give you the link only 'cos I'm feeling generous, but don't be so fricin lazy in future, you'll give us pro-palestinians a bad name.
http://chrisandrews.ie/

Boston

edanto wrote: »

That is very amusing research! It shows just how much Israel overemphasise Hamas agression.

We can't deny how awful it must be for the people in southern Israel to live in fear, but they really only have their own governments landgrabbing policies to blame.

And the most ironic thing is that the position that the Israelis have taken

How many people died in the troubles in ireland Vs the number that died on the roads in ireland during the same period.

3524 Died in the troubles, over 12,000 Died on our roads in the same period. Where people more worried about the IRA back then? Yes they were.

ionix5891

Boston wrote: »

How many people died in the troubles in ireland Vs the number that died on the roads in ireland during the same period.

3524 Died in the troubles, over 12,000 Died on our roads in the same period. Where people more worried about the IRA back then? Yes they were.

if anything that highlights how badly people assign risk to things, same goes for fear of airplanes


Israel should react like they are doing but act like the British government did up the North and sit down to negotiate, as shown by simple facts they are gone way off on a tangent, yes Hamas are a bunch of idiotic fundamentalists but you dont fight fire with fire (or in this care pouring more oil into the fire)

CK.1

edanto wrote: »

It was also 'reported' on the letters page of the Irish Times where Chris Andrews wrote an open letter calling for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador. He might appreciate an email of support from you if you could take the time. He's one of my local TDs, and I've already been in touch.

Do you have a link to the letter? I'd like to read it first.

The Saint

Just some info on the shelling of the UN school yesterday:

The Israeli military said its soldiers had come under mortar fire from Hamas militants inside the school.

However, Unwra's Christopher Gunness said the agency was "99.9% certain" that there were no militants or militant activity in the school compound, and called for an independent investigation into the incident.

A spokesman for Hamas denied there had been any hostile fire coming from the school.

So thats two against one. While I put very little value in what Hamas say I also put very little value in what the Israeli's say after events like this. I've explained why in this post.

concussion

ionix5891 wrote: »

this is what I dug up for # dead in car accidents in Israel for 2008 on their central statistics website

No, thats not what you dug up for the number dead. That site does not have the number killed in car accidents for 2008. Those figures are for all accidents which had a casualty, classified 'Fatal', 'Serious' or 'Slight'

Running the same data for 2006, the last year fatalities are listed, gives roughly the same number of accidents per month. Run the same data against fatalities only and the number is 373 deaths.

The number killed in accidents in 2008 was 444, the first time since 2004 that it rose over the government max target of 405. For a population twice that of Ireland that's not bad.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129092

An aside about our acceptance of road deaths
http://otheroman.blogspot.com/2009/01/palestine-and-road-deaths-in-oman.html

The number killed by Palestinian terrorists in 2008 was 31 according to the Israel General Security Services via this link
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.4717711/k.4A0D/Total_Israeli_Deaths_from_Palestinian_Terrorism_20002008.htm

Bringing road deaths into this debate is irrelevant. Statistically, more Palestinians will be killed by cancer than by the Israelis.

ionix5891

that is still much less than killed by hammas

meditraitor

concussion wrote: »

Bringing road deaths into this debate is irrelevant. Statistically, more Palestinians will be killed by cancer than by the Israelis.

Makes sense when the Isrealis have been denying the palestinians proper health care and medicines when it suits them...............

Its not just the Isreali bullets and bombs that are killing the palestinians ! The constant fear of Isreali slaughter has to be having an effect on the health of the native palestinians,...........And the Isrealis know this

concussion

meditraitor wrote: »

Makes sense when the Isrealis have been denying the palestinians proper health care and medicines when it suits them...............

That and the massive overuse of illegal pesticides over the last 2 decades. But I suppose that's the Israeli's fault too.

edanto

CK.1 wrote: »

Do you have a link to the letter? I'd like to read it first.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/0105/1230936654466.html

Madam, - Tom Carew (December 31st) rightly points out that Hamas is not innocent in the ongoing conflict. He is also right to say that nobody should be expected to stand idly by "in the face of such a sustained campaign of atrocities against civilians". Of course no country can ignore regular attacks on its community.

However, it is also clear that such is the extent of the over-reaction by Israel that its actions can now only be classed as state terrorism. In recent months the Israelis have maintained a blockade of the Gaza Strip which has slowly and systematically brought the residents and infrastructure of Gaza to their knees. Now Israel sees its latest action as putting the final nail in the Hamas coffin.

To see a country which portrays itself as civilised descending to state terrorism is worrying in the extreme.To see that there is no willingness to stop this descent is even more worrying.

It is time for Ireland to take a principled stand on the Israel-Palestinian conflict and expel the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland.

Ireland must also press for emergency medical aid to be allowed through to those who are in desperate need of it. It is also clear that the European Union's self-imposed ban on talking to Hamas is forcing ordinary Palestinians into the hands of extremists. Israel's latest assaults will reinforce this trend.- Yours, etc,


CHRIS ANDREWS TD

(Dublin South East),

Dáil Éireann,

Dublin 2.

Nodin

concussion wrote: »

That and the massive overuse of illegal pesticides over the last 2 decades. But I suppose that's the Israeli's fault too.

Now that you mention it.... wrote:

On 3 March 2003, the Israel Lands Administration (ILA), which controls most of the land inside Israel (including land expropriated from Palestinian refugees), destroyed more than 2000 dunums (500 acres) of crops belonging to residents of the unrecognized Bedouin village of Abda located in the Naqab (Negev). During the operation, toxic chemicals were sprayed on the crops, including land where men, women and children were working in their fields (See attached RCUV Press Release). This is the second time in a year that the ILA has used toxic chemicals to destroy Bedouin crops in the Naqab (See BADIL Press Release E/09/02).

http://www.badil.org/Publications/Press/2003/press285-03.htm

ionix5891

concussion wrote: »

That and the massive overuse of illegal pesticides over the last 2 decades. But I suppose that's the Israeli's fault too.

they cant obtain fertilisers/pesticides in Palestinian farms due to the embargo and due to these chemicals being able to be turned into explosive

meditraitor

concussion wrote: »

That and the massive overuse of illegal pesticides over the last 2 decades. But I suppose that's the Israeli's fault too.

Why illegal pesticides? It wouldnt be because Isreal has refused palestine permission to trade openly with anyone in the free world now would it?

When you have a population as dense as Gaza and prevent any type of proper healthcare and sanitation work being done it will cause health problems.

And as for the permanent fear of being blown to bits I can only imagine how these poor people are doing healthwise!

Look at Ireland for example, you have guards on the street who get a few slaps of a scumbag while on duty and they never work again because of the stress. Some young one has her handbag robbed and wont go out alone on the street. Mostly humans are not very strong after a trauma, and these people are under threat of death everyday for no other reason than their ethnicity..........

concussion

Nodin - what toxic chemicals were used? In any case, a chemical can be toxic without being carcinogenic or teratogenic so it's a moot point.

ionix5891 wrote: »

they cant obtain fertilisers/pesticides in Palestinian farms due to the embargo and due to these chemicals being able to be turned into explosive

Well then, they won't be exposed to carcinogenic materials. Unless you think they should be using unsafe chemicals?

ionix5891

concussion wrote: »

Nodin - what toxic chemicals were used? In any case, a chemical can be toxic without being carcinogenic or teratogenic so it's a moot point.



Well then, they won't be exposed to carcinogenic materials. Unless you think they should be using unsafe chemicals?

this ban leads them to improvise, what you rather they starve? food is already barely trickles in due to Israelis wanting to keep them in a giant concentration camp (which is what west bank and gaza are) all the missing are gas chambers and german guards, history has a funny way of repeating itself

what were witnessing is a mutilation of a nation, and there are people who are coming up with excuses for this slaughter

Nodin

concussion wrote: »

Nodin - what toxic chemicals were used?

Some brand of stuff called "Roundup". Whats in it I have no idea.
http://www.arabhra.org/HRA/SecondaryArticles/SecondaryArticlePage.aspx?SecondaryArticle=1457

concussion

ionix5891 wrote: »

this ban leads them to improvise, what you rather they starve? food is already barely trickles in due

I see they improvised over 6000 missiles in 2 years. With all the excuses in the last few posts about how Israel has embargoed the legal, safer pesticides as a security measure you'd wonder if the ordinary people would see them at all due to Hamas turning it into explosives.

concussion

Nodin wrote: »

Some brand of stuff called "Roundup". Whats in it I have no idea.

Active ingredient -

Glyphosate-isopropylammonium
MSDS (materials safety data sheet)

POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS

EYES: Eye contact may cause discomfort, tearing, swelling, redness, and blurred vision. See Toxicology Information, section 11.

SKIN: This substance is not expected to cause prolonged or significant skin irritation. If absorbed through the skin, this substance is considered practically non-toxic to internal organs. This product is not expected to cause allergic skin reaction. See Toxicology Information, section 11.

INGESTION: Ingestion may produce irritation of the digestive tract as demonstrated by signs and symptoms of mouth membrane irritation, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. See Toxicology Information, section 11.

INHALATION: Overexposure to spray mist may result in minor irritation of the upper respiratory tract. See Toxicology Information, section 11.

EPA classification E - evidence of non-carcinogenicity in humans

No evidence of mutagenicity, teratogenicity or reproductive toxicity.

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Monsanto-Roundup-MSDS-Docs7072.htm





Safe enough. Stupid spraying it on people though.

Nodin

concussion wrote: »

Safe enough. Stupid spraying it on people though.

The Bedouin in the Negev aren't afforded the nicieties of such things. That being said, they do enlist in the IDF, despite the fact that their efforts and sacrifices are far from rewarded....
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=843940

djpbarry

concussion wrote: »

Nodin wrote: »

Some brand of stuff called "Roundup". Whats in it I have no idea.

Safe enough. Stupid spraying it on people though.

Taken in isolation, the active ingredient is relatively harmless. However, ingestion of large doses of Roundup can be fatal:
http://toxicology.adisonline.com/pt/re/tox/abstract.00139709-200423030-00003.htm;jsessionid=JkLG4YfRyZTcjysKDCndMG3B8my5pjYjx8SLDTy1vWdtQK60mL9y!-482373940!181195629!8091!-1

concussion

djpbarry wrote: »

Taken in isolation, the active ingredient is relatively harmless. However, ingestion of large doses of Roundup can be fatal

Indeed, however it was sprayed on them, they didn't drink it. There were no deaths or serious illnesses mentioned in the report and so there are probably no long term effects due to the lack of carcinogenicity etc.

Manic Moran

It's a weed killer. I have some in the shed.

did our useless government make any noise about these events?

Which brings up another point. This was all very forseeable, and though the Rest of the World is all very good at tut-tutting and fingerwagging, they've done absolutely sod-all by way of a meaningful effort to prevent it. It's on the backburner on the news, only getting a bit of attention on the occasion people get killed, then this breaks out and everyone goes "Oh my, the horrors"

Seriously, did anyone really expect this not to happen? Especially given the incidents of Lebanon 2006? It seems pretty obvious that after that incident someone might have thought "Hey, Hamas keeps poking Israel in the eye, what if the Israelis respond in a similar matter in Gaza?" Or if they did, it seems the world figured "Well, sod it. We'll figure it out when it happens."

This isn't about Israel ignoring UN resolutions or Hamas refusing to outright acknowledge Israel. Obviously the two sides have their own opinions on the matters regardless of the rest of the world. Those aren't negotiating positions, those are dictats. Where was the rest of the world in sitting down between the two sides and actually trying to make a serious effort at finding out just what would be acceptable to the two sides? Instead, we all just sit back and then get angry at what was pretty obviously inevitable.

NTM