1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Manic Moran

How dare the Palestinians launch firecrackers in symbolic defiance.

How much good has it done them? Has it helped, or hindered their cause?

NTM

IRISH RAIL

Steviemak wrote: »

17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon;

1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre;

106 Lebanese civilian refugees massacred in Qana 1996, more than half of them children, at a UN base;

the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew;

1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians

700+ and counting in Gaza 2009 again mostly civilians

How dare the Palestinians launch firecrackers in symbolic defiance.

FIRECRAKERS EH

Im sure if you were with the million civvilians in southern Israel who are under daily threat these past years you wouldnt call them firecrakers
if I put 10kg of explosive under your car would you call it a firecraker then ?

didnt think so.

Cantab.

Anyone know where I can get pictures from last Tuesday's israeli embassy protest?

Who's going to the protest on Saturday?

Mal-Adjusted

just for clarification, is this a discussion about who's right and who's wrong, or who's MORE wrong than the other?:(

i mean...you can blame Isreal for invading Gaza...
but they were provoked by the rockets...
but they're hand was forced by the blockade...
and that was probably provoked by something else...i guess sifting through stuff like this is kinda meaningless when people on both sides are dying.

eoin5

Manic Moran wrote: »

How much good has it done them? Has it helped, or hindered their cause?

NTM

You can never know until well afterwards with these things, and often you can never know. Its all just speculation.

uprising

General who helped redraw the borders of Israel says road map to peace is a lie.

Shortly after the Six Day War, 40 years ago, Shlomo Gazit was put in charge of Gaza and the West Bank. Today, the retired general is in favour of talks with Hamas, describes the road map as a "pretext" for Israel not to negotiate with the Palestinians, and thinks the idea that the US can or should veto a peace process between Jerusalem and Damascus is a " nonsense".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/general-who-helped-redraw-the-borders-of-israel-says-road-map-to-peace-is-a-lie-452535.html






























Maybe they would have grown up to be terrorists or doctors, fathers or mothers..........BUT WE'll NEVER KNOW

uprising

Sorry for posting these disturbing images but I think people should see whats going on, these people were unfortunately born in the "WRONG" place.































I hope these images affect you, like they do me
IT'S TIME TO STAND UP AND MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD

Manic Moran

News flash. Wars are gruesome and bloody things and people get killed, the innocent with the guilty. Hence they are best avoided.

Were you not aware of this before you saw the pictures?

NTM

youcrazyjesus!

uprising wrote: »

Sorry for posting these disturbing images but I think people should see whats going on, these people were unfortunately born in the "WRONG" place.

No, undoubtedly they were feeding ammunition to Hamas gunmen or standing 6ft away from mortar attacks, maybe even terrorists? It would be another cunning plan by Hamas, disguising themselves as 6 year old children. In fact, I've decided it's true.

If genuine the photo of IDF standing over a photo of their victim is truly disgusting. War trophies are for sadistic killers imo.

uprising

Manic Moran wrote: »

News flash. Wars are gruesome and bloody things and people get killed, the innocent with the guilty. Hence they are best avoided.

Were you not aware of this before you saw the pictures?

NTM

Will you please STOP, I cant believe your arrogance, do you have children?, I WAS aware before I posted these pictures, and yes war is gruesome, thats why your bravado is that little bit more sickening to me.

uprising

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

No, undoubtedly they were feeding ammunition to Hamas gunmen or standing 6ft away from mortar attacks, maybe even terrorists? It would be another cunning plan by Hamas, disguising themselves as 6 year old children. In fact, I've decided it's true.

The sad thing is some people may actually believe you and agree.

youcrazyjesus!

Manic Moran wrote: »

News flash. Wars are gruesome and bloody things and people get killed, the innocent with the guilty. Hence they are best avoided.

What do you mean best avoided? By whom? People are entitled to see the reality of it, if people are justifying it, or criticising it, then we should see the full horror of it.

This is not a war, no more a war than the Madrid train bombings or the 911 attacks were a war. Shame on anybody justifying this slaughter as a war.

Were you not aware of this before you saw the pictures?

Not all of us have first hand experience of such things but I'm guessing he was aware of what he would find. Sadly wars and terror attacks happen constantly around the world. You're in the US yes? I know US news doesn't show even a drop of blood but in countries where there is a free press we see these things on our TV screens anyway. Perhaps not in quite as much horrific detail.

youcrazyjesus!

Manic Moran wrote: »

And mortar crews can't see the UN flags, and often don't have time to check GPS co-ordinates. All they get is a computer readout saying "Point of origin this grid"

Big deal. If I fire my gun out of my window, through the curtains and shoot the postman by accident, will I get off because I was shooting blind?

Again you're coming at this from a completely irrelevant purely military viewpoint. Nobody cares.

It works both ways. If Israel was correct, it would not have been the first time that Hamas has fired mortars from the region of UN schools. Actually, last year they fired from right in the middle of the Beit Hanan school grounds.

And Israel deliberately slaughtered civilians before using rocket fire as an EXCUSE to do so. Who should we believe? They are particularly fond of attacking the UN in my opinion.

99.999% of the people watching may not understand the practical realities of trying to fight a war in one of the most dense urban areas on the planet against an enemy that tends not to follow the 'accepted norms' we're trying to judge by.

Neither do they care.

Accepted norms of behaviour? Don't make me laugh.

A Dub in Glasgo

The guy who was convicted of murdering Rhys Jones did not mean to kill the child. Just because the Israeli armed forces say they were after one guy using a tank artillery shell or a missile from a plane does not justify the killing of civilians. MM (and others) would like to think otherwise.

Israel have been killing hundreds of civilians with impunity. They should be hauled in front of the ICC to answer for their crimes but we all know that will not happen as there are too many who will justify their killings.

hoolio

Those images are disturbing, repugnant, and unfortunately exactly as to be expected from any area so densely packed being bombarded.

Why did you selectively post pictures of only the children being maimed, injured and killed? It's a frankly cheap emotive trick. The death of any non combatant is equally tragic. Why does an adult seemingly make your life less worthwhile and your death less horrific?

Please, mourn for the children, but likewise mourn for their fathers, their mothers, their older brothers and sister, uncles and aunts, teachers and minders. Why did you exclude them? They're less effective for shock-rallying people to your cause i expect.

Outrage is one thing, but it's only when people move past the raving and anger and start looking for realistic, tangible and practical solutions to the problems faced right now that some actual progress will be made. More hatred is the last thing the area needs, and one day we might not have to witness images such as these again.

I'd echo what youcrazyjesus said about that image of IDF posing with a corpse. Horrible by any standards.

Manic Moran

uprising wrote: »

Will you please STOP, I cant believe your arrogance, do you have children?, I WAS aware before I posted these pictures, and yes war is gruesome, thats why your bravado is that little bit more sickening to me.

Nope, no kids yet. I'm not saying there's no tragedy. I'm just curious as to why you think the photos need to be posted. There's nothing going on there that is unexpected, or that hasn't been seen before. In my case, with my own eyes, not in a photograph.

What do you mean best avoided?

I'm sure you would agree that it is preferable to avoid having a war than having a war? Most people don't need photographs to figure that bit out. The people who think that a war is a sterile, civilised business with rules and regulations might, I guess, but I'm not seeing many of those people here.

Big deal. If I fire my gun out of my window, through the curtains and shoot the postman by accident, will I get off because I was shooting blind?

If it was counter-fire, they weren't shooting blind. They knew exactly what they were aiming for, the source of the fire. That they couldn't physically see it is irrelevant.

Again you're coming at this from a completely irrelevant purely military viewpoint. Nobody cares

Some very important people care: The guys with the guns in the military. You may not like the rules, and frankly, I'm not so keen on some of them either, but that's what we work within. There is no place for idealism in combat. That went out the window once the shooting started, the ideal is to not be shooting in the first place.

Accepted norms of behaviour? Don't make me laugh.

So you're saying that putting civilians and military objectives in the same place is an accepted norm?

MM (and others) would like to think otherwise.

I do not say justified. I say inevitable and to be expected. Tragic, but not intended or criminal.

NTM

Nodin

Manic Moran wrote: »

How much good has it done them? Has it helped, or hindered their cause?

As the sanctions route is denied them, its safe to say they'd be an historical footnote if they didn't bring attention this way.

Macha

Manic Moran wrote: »

So you're saying that putting civilians and military objectives in the same place is an accepted norm?

Er...they bombed a UN school that was being used as a civilian shelter..how exactly is that not Israel's fault?

I love the way Palestinians are totally held to account when they kill civilians but for some reason when Israel does it a hundred-fold over, it wasn't "intentional" and therefore doesn't matter..

The mind boggles at the warped logic people clutch at in order to hold onto their world view.

Steviemak

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

FIRECRAKERS EH

Im sure if you were with the million civvilians in southern Israel who are under daily threat these past years you wouldnt call them firecrakers
if I put 10kg of explosive under your car would you call it a firecraker then ?

didnt think so.

In comparison to the destruction casued by Israeli missiles that can level a whole block then yes they are firecrackers.

And no it has done them zero good but its bourne out of complete frustration with their plight! We burned down the British embassey in dublin when they shot dead 14 innocent people in Derry. Did it do us any good - no. But it was done out of sheer frustration at seeing our countrymen slaughtered and the complete feeling of helplessness.

Steviemak

Manic Moran wrote: »

News flash. Wars are gruesome and bloody things and people get killed, the innocent with the guilty. Hence they are best avoided.

Were you not aware of this before you saw the pictures?

NTM

Whats the weather like in CA today? Hope it is a beautiful sunny day over there far away from the slaughter.

concussion

Mr.Micro wrote: »

We need a multinational peace keeping force in the area no matter what Israel thinks or objects. Its about time that the UN or the US or the EU get it sorted as neither side will ever trust the other or probably tolerate the other. With a new President in the US perhaps this could be a new start to at least get some stability before any moves can be made to sort out the whole Gaza issue. Do'nt hold your breath though.

A Palestinian spokesman said they would not tolerate any international peacekeeping force - was on the 9 o'clock news last night, no linky unfortunately.

Steviemak wrote: »

700+ and counting in Gaza 2009 again mostly civilians

According to the UN 75% of those killed in Gaza are not civilians.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0108/breaking4.htm

Steviemak wrote: »

In comparison to the destruction casued by Israeli missiles that can level a whole block then yes they are firecrackers

Does it matter to those who are killed whether it was by a 10kg rocket or a 250kg bomb?






Some thing I've noticed - over the years in news reports I've heard a lot about Israeli's taking cover in their very well prepared shelters, but I've never heard of Palestinian's having them. Is this grave negligence from the Palestinian authorities??


Regards shooting the postman out the window - what if the postman had allowed a someone to use him as cover in order to shoot at you?

Macha

concussion wrote: »

According to the UN 75% of those killed in Gaza are not civilians.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0108/breaking4.htm

Does that include policemen - the Palestinian equivalent of the Gardai?

concussion wrote: »

Some thing I've noticed - over the years in news reports I've heard a lot about Israeli's taking cover in their very well prepared shelters, but I've never heard of Palestinian's having them. Is this grave negligence from the Palestinian authorities??

Are you aware of how poor the Palestinian territories are? And you think they can spare the cash to build all these well-prepared shelters? Israel is completely minted-they get billions from the US each year.

edanto

concussion wrote: »

A Palestinian spokesman said they would not tolerate any international peacekeeping force - was on the 9 o'clock news last night, no linky unfortunately.

I didn't see the news... but it's a shame you couldn't back up what you said with any kind of link. But I'm interested - the 9 o clock news in which country? Ireland?

I can suggest that you are wrong, because of this report:

In New York, the Palestinian Authority's foreign minister, Riad Malki, sought passage of a U.N. Security Council resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire and the deployment of foreign peacekeepers to the region, the Post said.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/01/06/UPI_NewsTrack_TopNews/UPI-63871231261200/

concussion wrote:

Israeli's taking cover in their very well prepared shelters, but I've never heard of Palestinian's having them. Is this grave negligence from the Palestinian authorities??

I think you really are suffering from concussion if this is the best you can come up with.

horseflesh

taconnol wrote: »

Er...they bombed a UN school that was being used as a civilian shelter..how exactly is that not Israel's fault?

I love the way Palestinians are totally held to account when they kill civilians but for some reason when Israel does it a hundred-fold over, it wasn't "intentional" and therefore doesn't matter..

The mind boggles at the warped logic people clutch at in order to hold onto their world view.

No, they bombed a Hamas mortar position that was beside the school. Unfortunately there were civilian casualties in the school.
Hamas are held to account when they kill civilians, not ordinary Palestinians. The civilian Palestinian population are caught in the middle of all this crap.
It wasn't intentional, but of course it matters; dozens of people died needlessly.

Ping Chow Chi

concussion wrote: »

Some thing I've noticed - over the years in news reports I've heard a lot about Israeli's taking cover in their very well prepared shelters, but I've never heard of Palestinian's having them. Is this grave negligence from the Palestinian authorities??

I think they struggle to pay to maintain their sewage systems let alone pay to construct shelters.

horseflesh

edanto wrote: »

I didn't see the news... but it's a shame you couldn't back up what you said with any kind of link. But I'm interested - the 9 o clock news in which country? Ireland?

I can suggest that you are wrong, because of this report:



http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/01/06/UPI_NewsTrack_TopNews/UPI-63871231261200/

The Palestinian Authority don't control Gaza, Hamas do.

concussion

taconnol wrote: »

Does that include policemen - the Palestinian equivalent of the Gardai?

It doesn't say - I would assume it does as police are classed as civilian. However, in there are three kinds of police over there and I can guarantee that if Internal Security police (those of the interrogation and torture) were killed, the press would wail over 'police' being killed.

taconnol wrote: »

Are you aware of how poor the Palestinian territories are? And you think they can spare the cash to build all these well-prepared shelters? Israel is completely minted-they get billions from the US each year.

So poor that, based on 2004 WHO data, 100% had access to medical care, 100% access to proper sanitation, and 97% had sustainable access to improved water supplies. The majority of the Gaza strip is urban - if that can be attained then shelters can be built.
http://www.emro.who.int/emrinfo/index.asp?Ctry=pal

As for now, the US,EU and Canada cut funding for Gaza after the Palestinians elected a terrorist organisation to power - that government has since spent a lot of money digging tunnels so they can buy weapons and explosives to fire into Israel.

Macha

horseflesh wrote: »

No, they bombed a Hamas mortar position that was beside the school. Unfortunately there were civilian casualties in the school.
Hamas are held to account when they kill civilians, not ordinary Palestinians. The civilian Palestinian population are caught in the middle of all this crap.
It wasn't intentional, but of course it matters; dozens of people died needlessly.

No. Stop absolving Israel of all guilt:

"The UN was particularly incensed over targeting of the schools, because Israeli forces knew they were packed with families as they had ordered them to get out of their homes with leaflet drops and loudspeakers. It said it had identified the schools as refugee centres to the Israeli military and provided GPS coordinates."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama

It wasn't intentional? Bull****.

ONE single mortar was fired from the school grounds with no casualites and Israel uses this as an excuse to bomb the hell out of the refugee centre and kill more than 50 civilians, only 2 of which were Hamas militants.

Macha

concussion wrote: »

So poor that, based on 2004 WHO data, 100% had access to medical care, 100% access to proper sanitation, and 97% had sustainable access to improved water supplies. The majority of the Gaza strip is urban - if that can be attained then shelters can be built.
http://www.emro.who.int/emrinfo/index.asp?Ctry=pal

As for now, the US,EU and Canada cut funding for Gaza after the Palestinians elected a terrorist organisation to power - that government has since spent a lot of money digging tunnels so they can buy weapons and explosives to fire into Israel.

This is not 2004: this is 2009. Israel goverened the Gaza strip until 2005 and were responsible for a lot of that urban construction. Half facts, misinformation...Hamas has built tunnels because the Israeli military have total control over all access in and out of Gaza -it's like an enormous open-air prison.


The population of Gaza live in abject poverty. From an Israeli Oxford professor of Intl Rels:

Gaza is a classic case of colonial exploitation in the post-colonial era. Jewish settlements in occupied territories are immoral, illegal and an insurmountable obstacle to peace. They are at once the instrument of exploitation and the symbol of the hated occupation. In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources. Cheek by jowl with these foreign intruders, the majority of the local population lived in abject poverty and unimaginable misery. Eighty per cent of them still subsist on less than $2 a day. The living conditions in the strip remain an affront to civilised values, a powerful precipitant to resistance and a fertile breeding ground for political extremism.

Funnily enough, people totally forget that Hamas are a democratically elected government - yet Israel are held up as the only democracy in the area. Yes, you're right to point that out - it is a disgrace that the US, EU and Canada cut funding to Hamas, yet seem to have no problem keeping diplomatic ties with Israel.

uprising

Quote: Hoolio
Why did you selectively post pictures of only the children being maimed, injured and killed? It's a frankly cheap emotive trick. The death of any non combatant is equally tragic. Why does an adult seemingly make your life less worthwhile and your death less horrific?

No Hoolio its not a cheap emotive trick, its the reality of the situation, if I posted pictures of dead adults the Israeli sympatisers here would have branded them Hamas, I didnt want to debate if they were Hamas or not.

Quote: Manic Moran
So you're saying that putting civilians and military objectives in the same place is an accepted norm?

I thought you were brighter than that, ask your friends in the IDF that question, do you not realise Gaza is a big prison, no way in or out, people forced into a pen like lambs to slaughter, one of the most populated places on earth, so "military" objectives and civilians dont have much say in the matter, if they did I dont think anybody would be there. I see GW did a good job indoctrinating your mind into an almost robot like state.

Concussion??, go back to the hospital, I fear it may be a lot worse than a concussion you have.