1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

concussion

edanto wrote: »

I didn't see the news... but it's a shame you couldn't back up what you said with any kind of link. But I'm interested - the 9 o clock news in which country? Ireland?

Yep, RTÉ News.
I suggest you read the date of the article and the party who made that statement. Dated January 6th, it reports that the Palestinan Authority, who are not party to the fighting and are not in power in Palestine, called for peacekeepers. The statement I allude to was on the 7th of January from the people who are in charge. Here's another article, which mirrors what Hamas have been saying for yearas about an international force

We don't want to replace the Israeli occupation with a foreign occupation," Yousef said. He also struck a defiant tone, adding later "we will never give up. Either we win, or we die."

Dated 07/01/09 http://news.trend.az/index.shtml?show=news&newsid=1390624&lang=en

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

I think they struggle to pay to maintain their sewage systems let alone pay to construct shelters.

100% access to proper sanitation tell me that their sewers are fine. Well, not any more
My point is, a just a few years ago they could have built them. It would reduce the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side. This is also why not so many Israeli civialians are being killed.

edanto wrote: »

I think you really are suffering from concussion if this is the best you can come up with.

It was, in fact a genuine question.

Nodin

Pictures and video, out of context and with no accompanying data, add nothing to anyones point.

Macha

And now a UN aid convoy has come under fire and a lorry driver killed.

http://twitter.com/AJGaza/statuses/1104173756

I'm waiting for the first person to use the phrase "unintentional" below..

concussion

taconnol wrote: »

And now a UN aid convoy has come under fire and a lorry driver killed.

http://twitter.com/AJGaza/statuses/1104173756

I'm waiting for the first person to use the phrase "unintentional" below..

Your linky no worky. I'm sure that was unintentional however and that you'll fix it soon.

Macha

concussion wrote: »

Your linky no worky. I'm sure that was unintentional however and that you'll fix it soon.

Touche.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009181119551714.html

Also, the Red Cross is being prevented from reaching the wounded and have been shocked at the behaviour of the Israeli military, stating that they have failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5h3Y7lhUuqltK1P2-pwSE7oeXGaOQ


Jesus - don't anyone on here try and say Gaza is the lap of luxury:

Sewage had already flooded in some areas, it said, and warned that as many as 10,000 Palestinians were at risk of drowning if the Beit Lahiya sewage lake burst.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/08/aid-ceasefire-gaza-israel-palestinians

concussion

I'd just like to say, before anyone comments on what I'm about to post, that I don't just accept the Israeli version of things out of hand and I don't support either side here because I don't know who's wrong and whose worse (I don't think wronger is a word). I do have a great interest in trying to see through the propaganda and hype from both sides, so -

The article doesn't say why aid workers weren't allowed in, just that they weren't. There can be a multitude of safety issues involved, not to mention having the proper equipment to rescue people from the rubble of destroyed homes. Look at the efforts made after earthquakes, the sheer amount of personnel and equipment, and then imagine doing that in the middle of a battle, especially when the Israeli troops are being attacked by militants/terrorists/freedom fighters wearing civilain clothing.

Macha

concussion wrote: »

The article doesn't say why aid workers weren't allowed in, just that they weren't. There can be a multitude of safety issues involved, not to mention having the proper equipment to rescue people from the rubble of destroyed homes. Look at the efforts made after earthquakes, the sheer amount of personnel and equipment, and then imagine doing that in the middle of a battle, especially when the Israeli troops are being attacked by militants/terrorists/freedom fighters wearing civilain clothing.

The Red Cross workers are trained to deal with these situations - this is their job. It is up to them to decide whether it is too dangerous to go in/whether they have the proper equipment etc - not the Israeli army. Sorry but there's no excuse.

This is another interesting article by Nancy Kanwisher, that shows that
- it was Israel that broke the ceasefire, not Hamas
- the Israeli assertion that it is "impossible" to deal with Hamas is not true because the ceasefire was kept until it was broken by Israel
- this in not a once-off: the data shows that 79% of all conflict pauses (defined as 1 day or more when no one is killed) are broken by Israel.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html

dublincelt

The ****ing b&s*tards are targetting the Aid convoys now. As per the UN rep on Al Jazeera, NO Aid has come in during todays farsical three hour window. And an aid driver has been killed.

What a disgrace!

uprising

A U.N. official in the Gaza Strip says Israeli forces have fired on a truck on a U.N. aid mission and killed the driver.
U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna says the incident took place during a lull declared by Israel to allow humanitarian aid to enter the territory.
He says the U.N. coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle and was marked with a U.N. flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza.
The Israeli army said it was investigating
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/08/un-israel-kills-driver-on_n_156168.html


Oh silly buggers, another accident, Oh well accidents do happen....................wait, there was a declared truce to let aid in, everyone was aware of this, it was coordinated by the U.N. and Israel, is it not enought for these filthy animals to maim and slaughter, seems not, they could'nt resist killing a driver who was taking in much needed basics, and very little at that, I suspect they want to persuade drivers not to make deliveries, just look at their record of killing reporters, peace protestors etc and yet some people will keep coming up with ridiculous excuses.
This morning I heard that rockets had been fired from southern Lebanon and I was glad, not because I want Israeli citizens to die, but because anything that distracts the IDF from the slaughter in Gaza is welcome, if Israel needs to split their troops and send some north then maybe some civilian will live that wouldnt have otherwise.

dublincelt

uprising wrote: »

A U.N. official in the Gaza Strip says Israeli forces have fired on a truck on a U.N. aid mission and killed the driver.
U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna says the incident took place during a lull declared by Israel to allow humanitarian aid to enter the territory.
He says the U.N. coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle and was marked with a U.N. flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza.
The Israeli army said it was investigating
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/08/un-israel-kills-driver-on_n_156168.html


Oh silly buggers, another accident, Oh well accidents do happen....................wait, there was a declared truce to let aid in, everyone was aware of this, it was coordinated by the U.N. and Israel, is it not enought for these filthy animals to maim and slaughter, seems not, they could'nt resist killing a driver who was taking in much needed basics, and very little at that, I suspect they want to persuade drivers not to make deliveries, just look at their record of killing reporters, peace protestors etc and yet some people will keep coming up with ridiculous excuses.
This morning I heard that rockets had been fired from southern Lebanon and I was glad, not because I want Israeli citizens to die, but because anything that distracts the IDF from the slaughter in Gaza is welcome, if Israel needs to split their troops and send some north then maybe some civilian will live that wouldnt have otherwise.

Aid operations now suspended by the UN as it is simply too dangerous.
What do the Zionist sympatisers on here have to say about that??!!

wes

Wow, first the school and now an aid convoy. This is getting even more ridiculous.

concussion

taconnol wrote: »

The Red Cross workers are trained to deal with these situations - this is their job. It is up to them to decide whether it is too dangerous to go in/whether they have the proper equipment etc - not the Israeli army. Sorry but there's no excuse.

Yes, they are the ones trained to do it but it's the responsibility of the military party to get them access. Whatever the politics surrounding it, the military is primarily responsible for the safety their own primarily, it's the same everywhere. In this incident it was a ridiculously long time and I'd like to know why. Probably never will.

uprising

Red Cross claims Israel ignored wounded
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to help wounded people in an area of Gaza where its rescuers found four children huddling next to their dead mothers.
The Israeli military 'failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded,' the International Committee of the Red Cross said in an unusually blunt statement.
It said Israeli soldiers tried to force Red Cross personnel to leave when they finally reached the area in Gaza City's battered Zeitun neighbourhood, four days after safe-passage had been requested.
The delay in allowing access to rescuers was 'unacceptable,' the ICRC said.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/gaza.html

Oh these sick b&stards, they'll rot in hell, is there no attrocity they cannot stop themselves from committing.

Macha

concussion wrote: »

Yes, they are the ones trained to do it but it's the responsibility of the military party to get them access. Whatever the politics surrounding it, the military is primarily responsible for the safety their own primarily, it's the same everywhere. In this incident it was a ridiculously long time and I'd like to know why. Probably never will.

True-we probably will never know but the Red Cross are always considered a very neutral organisation and this criticism is unusually harsh, suggesting that they had more than sufficient ground for being so angry.

Also, Amnesty Intl has accused both sides of using civilian shields. It's such a mess...

You know, Woodrow Wilson forsaw all of this in the early 1920s. He said there was no way you could just take land from one group of people and give it to another and not expect massive, long-term conflict.

uprising

wes wrote: »

Wow, first the school and now an aid convoy. This is getting even more ridiculous.

Dont worry wes, it will get a lot more ridiculous, as will the excuses.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Manic Moran wrote: »

How much good has it done them? Has it helped, or hindered their cause?

NTM

Doing nothing simply wasnt an option for Hamas. Its not like they decided to shell Israel immediately after the onset of the blockade which had been enforced against Gaza for a few years now.

I cant see how the situation would have but deteriorated if Hamas had decided to do nothing at all

g5fd6ow0hseima

uprising wrote: »

Dont worry wes, it will get a lot more ridiculous, as will the excuses.

The upcoming election will interest me a lot. It will tell the world what the Israeli public are like. It will really unearth the social fabric of that country for the whole world to see.

Nuravictus

There was a Israel plan a few years ago, can't think of the name but it called for removing the jewish settlements from Gaza, then going into Gaza & making it not possible for the arabs to live there & make them leave because of the conditions. The man who came up with the plan is the head of Mossad now. I will try get the name of the plan, if anyone knows the name please post it.

Another note is that if Mossad hadn't of let the organisation that formed Hamas get so much power it would of never happened but thats the issue, Mossad let them form because the thought they would undermine the PLO which it did in a way.

youcrazyjesus!

This aid thing was a con from the start. Israelis only agreed to it to steal the headlines back from the murder of 40 civilians sheltering in a designated UN safe area. BBC, Sky, Breakingnews.ie and others duly obliged. The Guardian and others, to their credit, did not.

It really is moving beyond stuff like the blockade and blowing up tunnels to something altogether different. The destruction they're causing to the Gaza Strip is mindblowing. It is the most blatant case of collective punishment you can possibly imagine. "Move from your homes, here are some leaflets, then we'll shell you as you flee". People scoffed that the idea was regime change in the beginning but the Guardian has said in their opinion that that's what Israel is planning. Great, open the door for Islamic Jihad and others and bomb them when they take over.

This has brought great shame on Israel and it's supporters, this is beyond the pale. An overreaction happened last week, this week's it's just bloody minded slaughter.

uprising wrote: »

Red Cross claims Israel ignored wounded
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to help wounded people in an area of Gaza where its rescuers found four children huddling next to their dead mothers.
The Israeli military 'failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded,' the International Committee of the Red Cross said in an unusually blunt statement.
It said Israeli soldiers tried to force Red Cross personnel to leave when they finally reached the area in Gaza City's battered Zeitun neighbourhood, four days after safe-passage had been requested.
The delay in allowing access to rescuers was 'unacceptable,' the ICRC said.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/gaza.html

Oh these sick b&stards, they'll rot in hell, is there no attrocity they cannot stop themselves from committing.

Macha

Nuravictus wrote: »

There was a Israel plan a few years ago, can't think of the name but it called for removing the jewish settlements from Gaza, then going into Gaza & making it not possible for the arabs to live there & make them leave because of the conditions. The man who came up with the plan is the head of Mossad now. I will try get the name of the plan, if anyone knows the name please post it.

That's exactly what Israel did in 2005 - withdrew 8000 Jewish settlers from Gaza, burning houses and farms as they went. But the military remained and controls all movement in and out of Gaza, by sea, air, land - an open-air concentration camp.

Oh, and then 12,000 Jewish settlers moved into the West Bank.

dublincelt

uprising wrote: »

Red Cross claims Israel ignored wounded
The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to help wounded people in an area of Gaza where its rescuers found four children huddling next to their dead mothers.
The Israeli military 'failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded,' the International Committee of the Red Cross said in an unusually blunt statement.
It said Israeli soldiers tried to force Red Cross personnel to leave when they finally reached the area in Gaza City's battered Zeitun neighbourhood, four days after safe-passage had been requested.
The delay in allowing access to rescuers was 'unacceptable,' the ICRC said.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/gaza.html

Oh these sick b&stards, they'll rot in hell, is there no attrocity they cannot stop themselves from committing.

All in the name of self defence! It is all the fault of Hamas is what you will hear from the Zionazi's. Israel have to take responsibillity for their actions and be held accountable.
I believe they want to deter drivers from actually bringing in aid. The killing of the driver today was a message to other would be drivers.

youcrazyjesus!

dublincelt wrote: »

All in the name of self defence! It is all the fault of Hamas is what you will hear from the Zionazi's. Israel have to take responsibillity for their actions and be held accountable.
I believe they want to deter drivers from actually bringing in aid. The killing of the driver today was a message to other would be drivers.

Israel has a long history of discouraging the UN and other bodies from providing aid and support to civilians in it's warzones. It didn't start just yesterday.

wes

uprising wrote: »

Dont worry wes, it will get a lot more ridiculous, as will the excuses.

I don't doubt that the excuses will get far more ridiculous.

youcrazyjesus!

taconnol wrote: »

This is not 2004: this is 2009. Israel goverened the Gaza strip until 2005 and were responsible for a lot of that urban construction. Half facts, misinformation...Hamas has built tunnels because the Israeli military have total control over all access in and out of Gaza -it's like an enormous open-air prison/

The Vatican yesterday compared Gaza to a concentration camp. That's what it has become.

uprising

Darrell Grumpy Urination wrote: »

The upcoming election will interest me a lot. It will tell the world what the Israeli public are like. It will really unearth the social fabric of that country for the whole world to see.

Very true, Its been claimed this "situation"(I dont know what to call it) was committed to influence the election, if this is the case and these terrorists do actually win because of this, well what does that say about the voters, what message does that give to a Palestinian mother or father who have lost their children, would it be extremist in that position to put on a vest and blow up a bus full of Israeli's?, after all what would they have to live for if their family has been massacared and the people they see as responsible are in striking distance!, which then leads us back to how this all started and even if the land was given back what use is that when your children are no longer around to enjoy it.

youcrazyjesus!

uprising wrote: »

Very true, Its been claimed this "situation"(I dont know what to call it) was committed to influence the election, if this is the case and these terrorists do actually win because of this, well what does that say about the voters, what message does that give to a Palestinian mother or father who have lost their children, would it be extremist in that position to put on a vest and blow up a bus full of Israeli's?

There'll be an upside, in the eyes of those supporting the slaughter now, Israel's citizens will become legitimate targets by virtue of the fact they voted in this way, after all it's a war and civilians die don't they? We won't have to listen to it on here anymore.

, after all what would they have to live for if their family has been massacared and the people they see as responsible are in striking distance!

I guess anybody asking the question putting themselves in that position would have an honest answer. It would be interesting to hear what people have to say, your mother, father and all your siblings have been killed, you're 15, your house is destroyed and dozens of your neighbours have died, what would you do?

The answers will fall into 3 categories:

a: Blame Hamas and become an IDF collaborator.
b: Log into boards.ie and blame Hamas.
c: Blame Hamas

djpbarry

uprising wrote: »

...what message does that give to a Palestinian mother or father who have lost their children, would it be extremist in that position to put on a vest and blow up a bus full of Israeli's?

Yes.

You think blowing up a bus full of civilians is acceptable?

uprising

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes.

You think blowing up a bus full of civilians is acceptable?

Will you go back and read again, where did I say it was acceptable?, I said "would it be extremist IN THAT SITUATION", what would you do if your neighbour killed all your family, and nobody did anything about it?, I'm asking you personally, what would you do in that situation, would you sit back and say "thats life"?

Nuravictus

Nuravictus wrote: »

There was a Israel plan a few years ago, can't think of the name but it called for removing the jewish settlements from Gaza, then going into Gaza & making it not possible for the arabs to live there & make them leave because of the conditions. The man who came up with the plan is the head of Mossad now. I will try get the name of the plan, if anyone knows the name please post it.

Another note is that if Mossad hadn't of let the organisation that formed Hamas get so much power it would of never happened but thats the issue, Mossad let them form because the thought they would undermine the PLO which it did in a way.

“Dagan Plan”
Great article by John Pilger today that mentions it.
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519

IRISH RAIL

Nuravictus wrote: »

There was a Israel plan a few years ago, can't think of the name but it called for removing the jewish settlements from Gaza, then going into Gaza & making it not possible for the arabs to live there & make them leave because of the conditions. The man who came up with the plan is the head of Mossad now. I will try get the name of the plan, if anyone knows the name please post it.

Another note is that if Mossad hadn't of let the organisation that formed Hamas get so much power it would of never happened but thats the issue, Mossad let them form because the thought they would undermine the PLO which it did in a way.

and im sure you have all the relevant proof of this to hand yea:rolleyes: