1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

munchester29

wes wrote: »

The truth, would be more or less what the UN said. Also, just because there staff is Palestinian doesn't change that.

Its one thing to not trust Hamas. I sure as hell don't, but to try and say we can't trust all Palestinians is ridiculous. I am sure the UN vets its staff and also have non-Palestinian staff on the ground as well.

The IDF made a claim, the UN has its nonsense. I put far more trust in the UN, than the IDF.

I believe that people's nationality and affiliation can have a serious impact on their actions.
Im not trying to portray the UN as liers, I'm trying to judge things case by case but this conflict is very complex, and nothing can be taken at face value.

UN workers are nothing more than regular people, and there are bad apples in every barrel. I even rememeber cases where UN workers were accused and tried for human trafficking.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Hamas fires rockets from UN installations, schools, and mosques as firing grounds. .

allegedly......

munchester29 wrote: »

Hamas uses Palestinian citizens as human shields..

allegedly.....Unlike Israel, where I can say for a fact they did.

munchester29 wrote: »

– Any Palestinian they kill is a collaborator that deserves dying, because, wait for it… wait for it… wait for it… they work with Israel = Israel is evil..

It's an occupier. We killed informers and collaborators here too, you know.

PapaQuebec

After spending the last 90 mins reading all the posts in this thread it seems to me that anti-semitism is alive, well, and flourishing in Ireland!

marius

PapaQuebec wrote: »

After spending the last 90 mins reading all the posts in this thread it seems to me that anti-semitism is alive, well, and flourishing in Ireland!

Please list a few of these anti-semetic posts

ionix5891

PapaQuebec wrote: »

After spending the last 90 mins reading all the posts in this thread it seems to me that anti-semitism is alive, well, and flourishing in Ireland!

notice how most of the posters are blaming the Israeli government and IDF both of whom have Arabic members too not the Jews or their Religion

Religion doesnt have much to do with this mess, its just an excuse, just like it was up the North

anyways ill be mindful of any new members posting here, im sure this thread was already on the GIYUS alert

and just because Jews (among many others) were exterminated in concentration camps doesn't give a right to their descendants to do the same to Palestinians or anyone else for that matter

.

munchester29

marius wrote: »

I saw a few on the internet a while ago...actually, it was in your post a few pages back....you know the one...you were trying to claim that there were no such pictures etc......and then posted them....and then later, as if it made a difference to how utterly idiotic the post was, claimed that it was not propaganda as it was a 'volunteer' website....

Once again, try to pay attention...

I said - Israel (as in the Israeli government) does not use pictures of dead Israeli children in propaganda efforts.
Since I am not Israeli, the fact that I myself showed such a picture as a counterweight to the dead Palestinian children pictures, means nothing in this context.

Now, since I have been seeing horrific pictures of hurt Palestinian children on many news channels and in newspapers, but have yet to see pictures of hurt Israeli children, I think my point is a valid one.

Manic Moran

The Red Cross has accused Israel of failing to help wounded people in an area of Gaza where its rescuers found four children huddling next to their dead mothers.

In the mean time, in the alternate universe where the Israelis did pick up the four kids, the headlines read "Israeli terrorists abduct children after killing their parents"

I'm fairly sure that the Israelis are aware of the political consequences of stopping an aid convoy. It wouldn't have hurt them to let it through as a concept, and it would have possibly gained them some goodwill. The conclusion then is that there is probably a reason that they stopped it, especially since a few hundred other aid trucks have been sent in since the fighting started (at least, the ones which weren't hijacked by Hamas as soon as they crossed the border). Something other than 'Because they're cruel evil buggers', most likely. Seriously, where's the cost/benefit analysis here? Nobody seems to be doing one.

NTM

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

allegedly......

In that school incident, Palestinian refugees said e following:

“Some Jabalya refugees at the school said they saw a small group of militants firing mortars near the school and running away, the Associated Press reported. A Gaza resident contacted by TIME said there is a citrus grove not far from the school. "Most likely, the militants fired from there," said the resident, who requested anonymity.”

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html

Nodin wrote: »

It's an occupier. We killed informers and collaborators here too, you know.

So it seems some offences do justify killing:(

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

I believe that people's nationality and affiliation can have a serious impact on their actions.
Im not trying to portray the UN as liers, I'm trying to judge things case by case but this conflict is very complex, and nothing can be taken at face value.

UN workers are nothing more than regular people, and there are bad apples in every barrel. I even rememeber cases where UN workers were accused and tried for human trafficking.

It is easy to take the UN claim at face value. This isn't the first time, the IDF has done something like this.

Your right the UN is not perfect, but there far more trust worthy than the IDF.

Also, I disagree that some of the UN staff being Palestinian in anyway effects therem being trust worthy . To judge people based on there ethnicity, is completely pointless.

concussion

Maybe it didn't slow down approaching the border stop.

munchester29

Manic Moran wrote: »

In the mean time, in the alternate universe where the Israelis did pick up the four kids, the headlines read "Israeli terrorists abduct children after killing their parents"

I'm fairly sure that the Israelis are aware of the political consequences of stopping an aid convoy. It wouldn't have hurt them to let it through as a concept, and it would have possibly gained them some goodwill. The conclusion then is that there is probably a reason that they stopped it, especially since a few hundred other aid trucks have been sent in since the fighting started (at least, the ones which weren't hijacked by Hamas as soon as they crossed the border). Something other than 'Because they're cruel evil buggers', most likely. Seriously, where's the cost/benefit analysis here? Nobody seems to be doing one.

NTM

+1

I have actually commented in similar words in the past when Israel has been accused of bombing schools, mosques and UN facilities on purpose - since it only hurts Israel, why would they do such things on purpose?

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

+1

I have actually commented in similar words in the past when Israel has been accused of bombing schools, mosques and UN facilities on purpose - since it only hurts Israel, why would they do such things on purpose?

Why would they care?

Its not like the money will stop flowing from the US or anything or that the EU will do anything either. Maybe the EU will mouth some condemnation or something, Israel can do as they please and be covered by the US and still recieve billions from them, despite violating UN resolutions and plenty of agreements they have made.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

It is easy to take the UN claim at face value. This isn't the first time, the IDF has done something like this.
Your right the UN is not perfect, but there far more trust worthy than the IDF.

That is a matter of opinion.

wes wrote: »

Also, I disagree that some of the UN staff being Palestinian in anyway effects therem being trust worthy . To judge people based on there ethnicity, is completely pointless.

I think that’s a bit naïve. People do usually tend to identify with, and support their own people. Many of the UN and UNRWA workers are Palestinians living in Gaza. The Palestinians who are getting killed there might include their friends, neighbours and relatives.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

That is a matter of opinion.

True enough, but I could argue that the 2 organisations Hamas and the IDF involved in the conflict and the UN are a independent observer. I would say the independent observer, would be far more trust worthy. Thats what I base my opinion on.

munchester29 wrote: »

I think that’s a bit naïve. People do usually tend to identify with, and support their own people. Many of the UN and UNRWA workers are Palestinians living in Gaza. The Palestinians who are getting killed there might include their friends, neighbours and relatives.

The same can be said of the IDF and there claims and they are directly involved in the fighting.

The Palestinian UN workers are not a part of the conflict and there are also non-Palestinians workers there too. You can hardly dismiss the UN, just because a few Palestinians are working for them. The UN version of events are far easier to believe, than the IDF who are involved in the conflict. The UN is not part of the conflict, so its far easier to take them seriously.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

Why would they care?

Its not like the money will stop flowing from the US or anything or that the EU will do anything either. Maybe the EU will mouth some condemnation or something, Israel can do as they please and be covered by the US and still recieve billions from them, despite violating UN resolutions and plenty of agreements they have made.

They would care, because with every such incident, they lose legitimacy in the eyes of the world, and the Palestinians gain sympathy. This in turn leads to increased world pressure on Israel to end their attacks, before Israel accomplishes its goals.

If they really didn't care - why aren't they just bombing Gaza to the stone age? They surely have the military might. Why settle for small attacks, when they can flatten Gaza ina few days?

edanto

PapaQuebec wrote: »

After spending the last 90 mins reading all the posts in this thread it seems to me that anti-semitism is alive, well, and flourishing in Ireland!

I have it on good authority that Palestinians are Semites too. I'm not anti-semetic. I'm not anti-Israeli.

I am very opposed to the actions of the Israeli govt & "Defence" forces.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

The Palestinian UN workers are not a part of the conflict and there are also non-Palestinians workers there too. You can hardly dismiss the UN, just because a few Palestinians are working for them. The UN version of events are far easier to believe, than the IDF who are involved in the conflict. The UN is not part of the conflict, so its far easier to take them seriously.

In my opinion, the job you have, even if you are a total humanitarian, doesn't exempt you from human feelings. Most of the UN workers in Gaza are Palestinians, and I doubt they can distance themselves from what is happening to their people, especially if someone they know and love gets hurt.

Soldie

Is it just me or does munchester29 manage to pull out a ridiculous defence for the Israelis regardless of what happens?

The UN co-ordinate all of their movements with the Israeli army, literally - the Israeli army has the co-ordinates of all of the UN's buildings in the strip, and is notified before the UN does anything. Much like today at the Erez crossing, whereby the UN hired a Palestinian civilian to help with delivering aid - the Israeli's were informed of this and gunned him down. Apparently they're investigating the situation - my arse. How can any rationally-minded person defend this blatant barbarism?

Let me guess: "it's a war, stuff like this happens", yada yada.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

They would care, because with every such incident, they lose legitimacy in the eyes of the world, and the Palestinians gain sympathy. This in turn leads to increased world pressure on Israel to end their attacks, before Israel accomplishes its goals.

What pressure? The US will cover them as long as they need. The US and Israel could give a rats ass what the rest of us think.

The cash from the US will keep flowing and there will be minimal consequence for Israel, if any.

munchester29 wrote: »

If they really didn't care - why aren't they just bombing Gaza to the stone age? They surely have the military might. Why settle for small attacks, when they can flatten Gaza ina few days?

Even Israel can't go that far. There is a limit to these things.

youcrazyjesus!

PapaQuebec wrote: »

After spending the last 90 mins reading all the posts in this thread it seems to me that anti-semitism is alive, well, and flourishing in Ireland!

Associating legitimate, principled criticism, whether you agree or not, with anti-semitism is an insult to the 6 million victims. It is sickening. Unlike you, not everyone associates every Jewish person with the State of Israel.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Boston wrote: »

So you agree with the israeli actions?

To me they are the initial perpetrators, so no, I dont. The Blockade imposed on Gaza in recent years against a democratically elected government with a civilian mandate behind them is nothing but an act of aggression and an unlawful means of pushing hamas towards violence.

When a staunch American ally is praised for wanting to destory a democratically elected government, it really brings to a head the essence of modern politics.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

In my opinion, the job you have, even if you are a total humanitarian, doesn't exempt you from human feelings. Most of the UN workers in Gaza are Palestinians, and I doubt they can distance themselves from what is happening to their people, especially if someone they know and love gets hurt.

There are plenty of non-Palestinian workers there as well. You seem to want to ignore that. The UN is an independent organisation in this, and have plenty of workers from many countries looking at there claims, so to try and paint things as if the Palestinian are the only ones saying this is nonsense.

Also, its simply ridiculous to distrust the UN due to the ethnicity of some of there workers. If you have proof of the UN lieing about this, please provide it.

Its pretty clear to me, that the IDF engaged in murder and there can be no excuses for that.

Boston

Darrell Grumpy Urination wrote: »

To me they are the initial perpetrators,

Thats all that matters, who started it...

munchester29

Soldie wrote: »

Is it just me or does munchester29 manage to pull out a ridiculous defence for the Israelis regardless of what happens?

The UN co-ordinate all of their movements with the Israeli army, literally - the Israeli army has the co-ordinates of all of the UN's buildings in the strip, and is notified before the UN does anything. Much like today at the Erez crossing, whereby the UN hired a Palestinian civilian to help with delivering aid - the Israeli's were informed of this and gunned him down. Apparently they're investigating the situation - my arse. How can any rationally-minded person defend this blatant barbarism?

All the UN said was that the driver was killed by Israeli fire, no one seems to argue with that, not even the Israelis. Israel said they are investigating the incident, and will respond.

Don't you think that hearing both sides and then judging is, well, kind of the fair thing to do?

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

All the UN said was that the driver was killed by Israeli fire, no one seems to argue with that, not even the Israelis. Israel said they are investigating the incident, and will respond.

Don't you think that hearing both sides and then judging is, well, kind of the fair thing to do?

The IDF are not known for carrying out proper investigations and when they do, they tend to only hand out a slap on the wrist.

Steviemak

concussion wrote: »

That's exactly my point - anyone in civilian clothing could be a threat - if that threat is real putting rescue workers in to be caught in the crossfire is ludicrous. There just isn't enough information in that report to determine why the Red Cross weren't allowed in. The IDF should have made every effort to facilitate them, and maybe they did make every effort, but we can't tell from the article.

Then the Israeli shouldn't escort the Red Cross - just let them in and do their job. They don't need to be protected from the Palestinians - its the israeli's killing aid workers

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

All the UN said was that the driver was killed by Israeli fire, no one seems to argue with that, not even the Israelis. Israel said they are investigating the incident, and will respond.

Don't you think that hearing both sides and then judging is, well, kind of the fair thing to do?

Senior UN figures are non-Palestinian. They have no reason to lie and every reason to keep the Israelis onside.

Accounts by UN personnel are very disturbing. Unless there is evidence they are lying I believe them. The IDF habiutually lie.

Your arguments are becoming even more whimsical. And are completely predictable. Shame on you for justifying this slaughter.
getting into pedantic details and arguing over the tiniest points won't change established facts.

Eg John Ging said he was 99.999 per cent sure there were no militants, UN secretary general has condemned israel actions.

Given IDFs previous form of lying AND attacking UN personnel there's only one logical conclusion.

Soldie

munchester29 wrote: »

All the UN said was that the driver was killed by Israeli fire, no one seems to argue with that, not even the Israelis. Israel said they are investigating the incident, and will respond.

Don't you think that hearing both sides and then judging is, well, kind of the fair thing to do?

The aid delivery was shot at directly by a tank, despite the UN notifying the Israeli Army in advance about the delivery. It doesn't get more black and white than that. Add that to the countless other reckless attacks they've made on Palestinian civilians in the past week, coupled with their oppressive treatment of them during peace-time. Yet in spite of this you still seem to unconditionally support their cause, as evidenced by your countless posts in this thread, which are of a highly-biased nature. At what point will you accept Israel's wrongdoing here? Do we need even more civilians to die before you concede? Your lack of objectivity completely undermines your credibility. The Palestinians are certainly no saints, but it is clear that in this instance, the Israelis are the main villains. Let me ask you, why do you so vehemantly support the Israelis? What do you gain on a personal level from distorting every piece of news you read into somehow supporting your unfounded arguments? Are you an honourary Israeli citizen, or is there something else we should know? Zion Evrony, is that you?

Steviemak

PapaQuebec wrote: »

After spending the last 90 mins reading all the posts in this thread it seems to me that anti-semitism is alive, well, and flourishing in Ireland!

Its got nothing to do with race and 100% to do with Justice. The Irish are very aware of the injustice in the world and care deeply that people no longer suffer this injustice - be it - East Timor, Burma, Tibet, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Palestine etc etc

Just to enlighten your uneducated mind -

Since Arabs are Semites, US-Israeli policy doesn’t get more anti-Semitic than this

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Some more bad news, it seems.

hamas has rejected the Egyptian cease fire plan:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/08/world/main4707219.shtml

Its about a valid a ceasefire proposal as one allowing Hamas fire rockets while Israel withdraws. It was worthless.
all Hamas want is a return to previous ceasefire minus the crippling blockade.