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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians
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Show me one statement from a UN official in Gaza who is a Palestinian? As I've said before, I trust statements from non-Palestinian UN officials in Gaza, such as John Ging. There is no reason in the world to doubt his integrity. Basement level employees of the UN in Gaza do not make official UN statements. Nor have I ever seen anybody take testimony from them as Gospel fact.
John Ging is a figurehead for the UN operation. His statements rely on evidence provided and collected by ground level UN operatives. Who as you note yourself, are inevitably compromised by Hamas affiliation. John Ging might be totally honest in stating that the UN investigation has discovered there was no Hamas fighters there. He can be totally honest, and totally wrong.Did you answer the Bloody Sunday analogy? In my opinion, it doesn't matter. I have good reason to doubt the IDF version of events, strong reasons, but even if the IDF version of events are 100% accurate it's still a terrible crime. They shouldn't even be there in the first place. Pedantic arguments following the deaths of 40 people from Israeli shells are irrelevant to me.
No, I didnt bother as its A) a terrible analogy and
a waste of time. I could argue back and forth that Hamas were the root cause of the tragedy by using civillians as cover for their attacks, drawing in IDF retaliation to civillian areas, but youve already reached a conclusion and dont want to be bothered by silly things like facts.I and others have given plenty of valid reasons. For a start, the IDF has a history of attacking, massacring in fact, dozens of civilians sheltering under UN protection. There is precedent for these terrorist atrocities. They have a history of attacking UN staff and soldiers. We have had at least 3 incidents of in 2 days. I find it extremely hard to believe, given the IDF were fully aware, in great detail, of the movements and positions of UN staff and buildings, that these were all simply "mistakes". I'll repeat, if past instances are any indication of future behaviour, then the balance of probability rests heavily on it being a deliberate attack on the UN.
No, you havent given any motivation. Your paragraph above doesnt provide a motivation - it just notes the inevitable reality that when people are in a warzone its possible they will be caught in the crossfire, especially when one side uses civillians for cover and has infiltrated the UN and other international aid organisations. Thats not a motivation.This is an equally valid way of looking at it: because when Israel assassinated 5 Hamas members, Hamas felt they had to respond militarily. Hamas were provoked and felt they had no choice.
In a militarily ineffective fashion. They might as well have jumped on horseback and rode up to the Israeli border to take on their tanks with slingshots. But I suppose they wouldnt have been able to bring civillians along with them for cover then.
Whatever way you look at it, Hamas considers the lives of Palestinians to be worthless in comparison to its need to hit Israel in even the most pointless, ineffective fashion.Hamas are not slaughtering Palestinians civilians. Israel are. You are expressing an utterly warped logic. Blame the victim!
Hamas are not victims. They are an organisation that praises Palestinian death over Palestinian life, and prefers to kill 1 Israeli civillian, even if it leads to 200 Palestinian civillians dead in return. The civillians, on both sides, are the victims."We would welcome talks with Tony Blair. We would like to work with him and work with his government to help end the Israeli occupation. We're sending a message to the British government - we're offering a hudna [ceasefire] for 10 years in return for the end of occupation.
"We hope the Europeans will become aware of the concept of hudna, and that it can become a substitute for recognition of Israel,""Debate about a political nation's right to exist seems infantile. Israel is a state now, it is part of the UN, it is de facto there, and we deal with it every day.""We need to change people's minds on how they look at the conflict, and it will take time. The climate will change if we have a period of peace."
I state that Hamas is not interested in peace, only a ceasefire. And you post a lot of stuff to agree?0 -
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Ok a few vids showing human shields at "work". Hamas got swanky new Israeli uniforms by the way. Then a U.N. official telling us that the Israeli army LIED about Hamas using civilians as human shields. MactheToaster you posted a video by some marmi guy that someone here doesnt trust, on the subtitles(I DONT SPEAK THE LANGUAGE) if what the man is supposadly saying is that the people will protect them, I havent seen a video showing Hamas forcing anybody to be a human shield, if you or ANYBODY here have one please post it, if not look at these videos and stay quiet with the human shield, and munchester you seem to have a memory like my goldfish, write it above your monitor not to bring up human shield again.
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John Ging might be totally honest in stating that the UN investigation has discovered there was no Hamas fighters there. He can be totally honest, and totally wrong.
I trust him to make a judgement, I'm sure he's aware of such things. And as I've said, it's irrelevant whether Hamas were 100 yards away or 10 miles away. What happened to Israeli surgical strikes?No, I didnt bother as its A) a terrible analogy
In your opinion, I think it's a damn good analogy.and a waste of time. I could argue back and forth that Hamas were the root cause of the tragedy by using civillians as cover for their attacks, drawing in IDF retaliation to civillian areas, but youve already reached a conclusion and dont want to be bothered by silly things like facts.
Hang on, what facts are there that Hamas was beside the school? I'd be interested to know how it has become fact. There is no evidence and the statements we have heard say it's almost certainly untrue. On the other side we have the "word" of IDF, previous investigations into similar massacres have proved they are liars who deliberately slaughtered civilians. As I've said, the balance of probablity rests heavily against IsraelNo, you havent given any motivation.
What I meant to say was that if you're bothered to read the thread, you'll see that we've covered motiviation. Myself and at least 1 other poster. Furthermore, the lack of a motive does not mean it didn't happen. Saying "oh, there's no motivation, therefore the IDF is right" is stupid.Your paragraph above doesnt provide a motivation - it just notes the inevitable reality that when people are in a warzone its possible they will be caught in the crossfire, especially when one side uses civillians for cover and has infiltrated the UN and other international aid organisations. Thats not a motivation.
Did you read what I said? I said the IDF deliberately massacred civilians in previous attacks, they used rocket fire as a pretext and instead of targetting the rocket fire, targetted civilians sheltering in a UN compound. I said if past form is an indication of future performance then you have to strongly suspect Israel is wrong in what it says, it lies routinely, the UN do not.
And it's not inevitable if you target civilians deliberately. It's not "inevitable" that civilians will be caught in the "crossfire" if the UN provide a high level of detail to the IDF and are still attacked anyway. The UN and aid organisations hire citizens to perform tasks, we were given 3 examples from 6 years ago, 2 from the West Bank of this type of thing. Any proof that the latest attacks, excuse me, latest 3 attacks on locations the IDF knew were civilian areas, were the result of infiltration by Hamas is welcome.
Civilian deaths are happening because Israel has launched a full scale ground invasion into Gaza and has killed civilians with shells and mortars (including mosques, two UN schools and a UN food truck - all of course, without exception, Hamas launching pads), not because of Hamas rockets from 2 weeks ago or because somebody, probably not true but anyway, launched a mortar from somewhere within a shouting distance of a UN school.In a militarily ineffective fashion. They might as well have jumped on horseback and rode up to the Israeli border to take on their tanks with slingshots. But I suppose they wouldnt have been able to bring civillians along with them for cover then.
I always see this claim that Hamas jump out from behind 50 expectant mothers and fire an RPG before cowering behind them again, yet it's never been reference by you or anybody as stated fact in a mainstream newspaper. Please do so.Whatever way you look at it, Hamas considers the lives of Palestinians to be worthless in comparison to its need to hit Israel in even the most pointless, ineffective fashion.
That's a statement, based on no referenced facts that you or anybody else has provided. And I could just as easily turn around and state: whatever way you look at it, Israel considers the lives of Palestinians to be worthless in comparison to its need to hit Hamas in even the most pointless, counter-productive fashion.
Who is right and wrong? I don't know, but I do know who is carrying out mass destruction and slaughtering civilians who, having been told to leave their homes in order to spare their own lives, are then slaughtered by Israeli shells when they do so. It's a disgrace and shame on your for justifying it.Hamas are not victims.
I agree, they're not.They are an organisation that praises Palestinian death over Palestinian life, and prefers to kill 1 Israeli civillian, even if it leads to 200 Palestinian civillians dead in return. The civillians, on both sides, are the victims.
Yes, Hamas are bloodthirsty savages, rampaging around the Gaza Strip like zombies from 28 Days Later. They eat children.I state that Hamas is not interested in peace, only a ceasefire. And you post a lot of stuff to agree?
Come off it. This is "hudna", far more sold than a ceasefire for a start and would form the basis of a permanent solution to the problem. They specifically state it's a de facto recognition of Israel. If you're stating that Hamas will simply count down to 10 years and start fighting again and go back to square 1 then you are deluded. I'm sure all of these issues could be cleared up by negotiations anyway, why not test Hamas out? If you're serious about peace, why not go along with world opinion, international law, Jimmy Carter, Ehud Olmert, Barack Obama, the Arab States, the former head of Mossad and 80% of Palestinians have to say on the subject and negotiate a solution based on 1967's borders.0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TFNJRz8HyQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2L0A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjTxK9C2VYY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1nQYKzJF1s
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