1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

youcrazyjesus!

Manic Moran wrote: »

It seems that the confusion over the truck/aid worker thing is continuing.

The confident reports that the truck was hit by tank shells would appear to be in conflict with the fact that the three victims (one dead, two wounded) are in an Israeli hospital with gunshot wounds, not fragmentation. So there is a very definite and provable hole in the UN side of the story to begin with.

In the meantime, an MDA medic is saying gunfire came from the Palestinian side. The IDF still doesn't seem to have a clue as to what happened, and MDA and PRC can't even agree as to who went in to collect the wounded and how they ended up in an Israeli hospital.

Even the UN Spokesman (Mr Miron) doesn't seem to know if the truck was coming or going. The UN director, Mr Ging, is also not certain that the fire came from the Israeli side. He was asked a direct question by a reporter on issue. He says "There is a conflict going on." At least he's got his head screwed on right.

Yet apparently we have uncontrovertible proof of Israeli wrongdoing...

NTM

Sources please.

"Operations will remain suspended until Israeli authorities can guarantee the safety and security of our staff," UN spokesman Christopher Gunness told AFP.

"Two tank shells impacted near a forklift, and one person was killed," Gunness said, adding that the convoy had been coordinated with the Israeli military.

youcrazyjesus!

Sand wrote: »

One thing thats interesting - assuming a deal is reached, what sort of fallout would hit the Israeli domestic scene if the release of Gilat Shalit [ assuming he hasnt been murdered yet ] wasnt part of that deal?

It's all tied in together, the blockade and the 10,000 or so Palestinians held in Israeli jails. Hamas have shown their willingness to negotiate. And Barack Obama said he will talk to Hamas, credit to him, just tonight. So there is hope.

uprising

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

It's all tied in together, the blockade and the 10,000 or so Palestinians held in Israeli jails. Hamas have shown their willingness to negotiate. And Barack Obama said he will talk to Hamas, credit to him, just tonight. So there is hope.

I wouldnt get my hopes up crazyJesus, Obama is another puppet of AIPAC, he'll go through the motions alright but nothing will CHANGE.

Quote from Obama:
But if anyone has been confused by these emails, I want you to know that today I'll be speaking from my heart, and as a true friend of Israel. And I know that when I visit with AIPAC, I am among friends. Good friends. Friends who share my strong commitment to make sure that the bond between the United States and Israel is unbreakable today, tomorrow, and forever.
http://www.barackobama.com/2008/06/04/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_74.php

youcrazyjesus!

uprising wrote: »

I wouldnt get my hopes up crazyJesus, Obama is another puppet of AIPAC, he'll go through the motions alright but nothing will CHANGE.

Quote from Obama:
But if anyone has been confused by these emails, I want you to know that today I'll be speaking from my heart, and as a true friend of Israel. And I know that when I visit with AIPAC, I am among friends. Good friends. Friends who share my strong commitment to make sure that the bond between the United States and Israel is unbreakable today, tomorrow, and forever.
http://www.barackobama.com/2008/06/04/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_74.php

To be fair to Obama, you have to position yourself as gung-ho, right-wing, pro-Israeli when running for President. He has said he is in favour of the Saudi-backed process based on the 1967 principle and now he's indicated that he, or at least an underling (i.e. he'll be meeting this Hamas and he won't be meeting with Hamas), will meet with Hamas. If he can combine the two and knock a few heads together there's a good chance of peace.

If the EU and US got together and insisted on a solution Israel would have no choice but to follow it. I have a little bit of hope, not much, but a little!

uprising

It was so sad. To see a grown tower of a man come to his knees. Just like everyone before him, the presumptive Democratic nominee followed the suit of all US political leaders before him and bowed down at the footsteps of the pro Israel lobby. What happened to the anti lobby nominee?
On the day his nomination had been sealed, at a time when his chances of being elected had been all but ensured, Barack Obama failed the test. What happened to the nominee who was going to change the way Washington was run? What happened to the promise of "I will tell you what you have to hear, not what you love to hear?"

Content wise, Barack Obama contradicted himself and every foreign policy rule he has been espousing. Gone was the need to favor diplomacy over militarisms, as Obama promised to give Israel $30 billion in military funding. Gone was the need to talk to Iran, and instead the saber rattling was repeated in the form of declaring that the military option in defense of Israel. Gone was the need to talk to our enemies and replaced by the repetition of claims of Bush claim of Iran's nuclear military program a claim that have been disproved by 16 American intelligence agencies.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daoud-kuttab/so-sad-to-see-obama-surre_b_105604.html

Manic Moran

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Sources please.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424892324&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

Miron later told the Post that the UN was not sure whether the truck had been going into or out of the Gaza Strip when it was attacked. He added that the UN believed the damage was caused by an IDF tank shell.

What is certain is that there is one dead Palestinian, and two others being treated at Ashkelon's Barzilai Medical Center for gunshot wounds.

Ging acknowledged, however, that he could not be absolutely certain that the attacks came from IDF forces, telling a reporter who asked whether other combatants may have been responsible, "There is a conflict going on."

Adding to the confusion, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society said it had evacuated the victims, but the MDA medic said soldiers told him they had gone in, at great personal risk, to evacuate the wounded Palestinians.

Now, I'm sure the Jerusalem Post is probably not the most unbiased of sources, but I've no doubt that even they are not going to misquote UN personnel or lie about the gunshot wounds given how easily they can be disproven. I'm sure other sources like Haaretz will do their own research as well eventually.

My opinion? There was a local breakdown in the ceasefire, and nobody from either side was trying to shoot the UN truck. It just drove into the line of fire. Tank was shooting at someone else, who was shooting back. Certainly wouldn't be the first time that sort of thing has happened.

NTM

uprising

Manic Moran wrote: »

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424892324&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

Now, I'm sure the Jerusalem Post is probably not the most unbiased of sources,

Now come on manic, the JerusalemPost?, will my posts be credible if I back them up with quotes from JihadNow.com?

uprising

Censored Israeli footage exposed
http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=5102&aid=

A confused settler
http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=6595

concussion

Nodin wrote: »

These are the people with the homemade rockets and AK's for an arsenal....All this talk of massive weapon smuggling is rather comical in light of whats going on at the moment.

Fatah has claimed that they have smuggled in hundreds of tons of weapons. Those rockets they're firing from Gaza are not just home made jobbies, they're Chinese military missiles. They have military mortars and heavy machine guns. Both Fatah and Isreal claim they also have surface to air missiles, and Hamas has itself claimed to be acquiring them.
A far cry from nothing but fertiliser bombs and AK's.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3310425,00.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm
Google for SA 7 and Hamas.

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I trust him to make a judgement, I'm sure he's aware of such things. And as I've said, it's irrelevant whether Hamas were 100 yards away or 10 miles away. What happened to Israeli surgical strikes?

It's quite relevant given the fragmentation zone of 155mm artillery. Even more so when it comes to 500 lb bombs. If Hamas sets up heavy weapons, they know the area 200 or 300 metres around them is going to suffer damage.

uprising

Your former president manic giving his views, is he a lying nazi?
http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=7698&aid=

Steviemak

concussion wrote: »

Yes they should. As should all other parties to the conflict. Aid workers are expected to be protected and allowed to do their job by all sides.

I'm also not implying that they need to be protected from Hamas, I'm saying that you can't have unarmed aid workers going trying to do their job in the middle of a battle. I'm also saying the Israelis should have made every effort to secure the area so they could go in and rescue people.

Maybe they did try to secure the area. We don't know if they did or didn't and we don't know what the security situation was during that time. All we know is the RC wanted to go in and the IDF said no.

In every war the dead and wounded are moved away from the war zone - except in Gaza where they have no where to go as it is the war zone. It is totally in the power of the israelis to allow the aid workers to attend to these poor people.

Did aid workers on the German side need Allies to protect them? No, so your point makes no sense. Let the aid workers into Gaza and they can work on the ground during the cease fires and in the hospitals during the bombings. Its what decent humans would do for innocent people.

uprising

concussion wrote: »

Fatah has claimed that they have smuggled in hundreds of tons of weapons. Those rockets they're firing from Gaza are not just home made jobbies, they're Chinese military missiles. They have military mortars and heavy machine guns. Both Fatah and Isreal claim they also have surface to air missiles, and Hamas has itself claimed to be acquiring them.
A far cry from nothing but fertiliser bombs and AK's.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3310425,00.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm
Google for SA 7 and Hamas.



It's quite relevant given the fragmentation zone of 155mm artillery. Even more so when it comes to 500 lb bombs. If Hamas sets up heavy weapons, they know the area 200 or 300 metres around them is going to suffer damage.

Rule 1 when posting, dont contradict yourself in your own post and if you do try seperate it by a few lines, then maybe it wont be as noticable.

"Both Fatah and Isreal claim they also have surface to air missiles, and Hamas has itself claimed to be acquiring them.
A far cry from nothing but fertiliser bombs and AK's."

So are you saying they have them or not, or both, please explain.
I think if they had surface to air there would be a few helicopter carcasses lying about, would you agree?.

concussion

Steviemak wrote: »

In every war the dead and wounded are moved away from the war zone - except in Gaza where they have no where to go as it is the war zone. It is totally in the power of the israelis to allow the aid workers to attend to these poor people.

Did aid workers on the German side need Allies to protect them? No, so your point makes no sense. Let the aid workers into Gaza and they can work on the ground during the cease fires and in the hospitals during the bombings. Its what decent humans would do for innocent people.

In a conventional fight the injured as moved out of the firefight by their own (military) medics. The Red Cross and other aid agencies don't wait on the front lines attending to the injured, they only come in when the area is secured ie the battle over. This is what's happening now on the Israeli side. On the Hamas side, they don't have their own medics and they're fighting in civilian attire. Any aid workers who go in to help the injured while both sides are fighting would end up caught in the cross fire.

There are aid workers in Gaza right now and they're working away during the cease fires and anywhere else the IDF are allowing them to go - don't make out they're all waiting on Egyptian side of the border.

There is no relevance to the Germans in WW 2 here, I don't know where you're picking that up from.

uprising

concussion wrote: »

There are aid workers in Gaza right now and they're working away during the cease fires and anywhere else the IDF are allowing them to go - don't make out they're all waiting on Egyptian side of the border.

Answer my previous post then this,

where and when did he make this out?, don't make out they're all waiting on Egyptian side of the border.

concussion

uprising wrote: »

Rule 1 when posting, dont contradict yourself in your own post and if you do try seperate it by a few lines, then maybe it wont be as noticable.

"Both Fatah and Isreal claim they also have surface to air missiles, and Hamas has itself claimed to be acquiring them.
A far cry from nothing but fertiliser bombs and AK's."

So are you saying they have them or not, or both, please explain.
I think if they had surface to air there would be a few helicopter carcasses lying about, would you agree?.

I'm saying that according to Fatah said they smuggled hundreds of tons of munitions.
I'm saying they have mortars, heavy machine guns and Chinese military rockets which are far more devastating than their home-made Qassam rockets.

I am also saying that Fatah and Israel both claim they have anti-aircraft missiles and that Hamas itself has claimed in the past that they want to acquire them.

I'm not saying they have them, I'm saying the Israeli military and Fatah claim they have them. Over 60 is the estimate the Israelis gave.
I don't know why they haven't shot down a helicopter yet, maybe they only have a few, maybe they haven't had a chance, maybe they don't work, maybe they don't have them.

Anti aircraft missiles notwithstanding, they have a large amount of military equipment, much more than simple rockets made in a garage somewhere.

uprising

Concussion, I've yet to see ANYTHING credible from you, you come in blabbering the same baloney, contradicing yourself, inventing things in your head.

I really hope you dont desert and come on our side, you'd lose our struggle single-handedly. Your one person I'm really glad isnt humane.

bobbyjoe

Maybe Hamas are saving their super weapons for when things really get bad.

Steviemak

concussion wrote: »

In a conventional fight the injured as moved out of the firefight by their own (military) medics. The Red Cross and other aid agencies don't wait on the front lines attending to the injured, they only come in when the area is secured ie the battle over. This is what's happening now on the Israeli side. On the Hamas side, they don't have their own medics and they're fighting in civilian attire. Any aid workers who go in to help the injured while both sides are fighting would end up caught in the cross fire.

There are aid workers in Gaza right now and they're working away during the cease fires and anywhere else the IDF are allowing them to go - don't make out they're all waiting on Egyptian side of the border.

There is no relevance to the Germans in WW 2 here, I don't know where you're picking that up from.

My point is that the aid on the Gazan side which is totally trapped and needs reinforcements from outside and it shouldn't be up to the israeli's to decide. The health of the people trapped in a box should be upmost in the Israeli minds.

Also if the Israeli's were any way decent they would be opening up their hospitals to the injured innocent people. Instead they are stepping over dead and injured people with no regard to their health. I wouldn't step over an injured dog.

My point on WW2 is just an example of a war. Where aid can be delivered from behind the front without the need for the enemy to allow it.

uprising

concussion wrote: »

I'm saying that according to Fatah said they smuggled hundreds of tons of munitions.
I'm saying they have mortars, heavy machine guns and Chinese military rockets which are far more devastating than their home-made Qassam rockets.

I am also saying that Fatah and Israel both claim they have anti-aircraft missiles and that Hamas itself has claimed in the past that they want to acquire them.

I'm not saying they have them, I'm saying the Israeli military and Fatah claim they have them. Over 60 is the estimate the Israelis gave.
I don't know why they haven't shot down a helicopter yet, maybe they only have a few, maybe they haven't had a chance, maybe they don't work, maybe they don't have them.

Anti aircraft missiles notwithstanding, they have a large amount of military equipment, much more than simple rockets made in a garage somewhere.

OH GOD, I REPEAT, look at rule 1 again, here it is:Rule 1 when posting, dont contradict yourself in your own post.

YOUR A LEGEND, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

concussion

uprising wrote: »

concussion wrote: »

where and when did he make this out?, don't make out they're all waiting on Egyptian side of the border.

Steviemak said 'let the aid workers into Gaza'

I'm pointing out that there are already aid workers in Gaza.

uprising wrote: »

Concussion, I've yet to see ANYTHING credible from you, you come in blabbering the same baloney, contradicing yourself, inventing things in your head.

Tell me what's not credible
Tell me where I've contradicted myself
What have I invented?

I'll eagerly jump out of bed in the morning to see your reply...


EDIT

uprising wrote: »

OH GOD, I REPEAT, look at rule 1 again, here it is:Rule 1 when posting, dont contradict yourself in your own post.

YOUR A LEGEND, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

You seem a tad excited.

Breathe

I said other parties have claimed they had that stuff. I believe they have everything but the anti aircraft missiles. Israel and Fatah claim they have them.

Danuogma

Anti aircraft missiles notwithstanding, they have a large amount of military equipment, much more than simple rockets made in a garage somewhere.

Yeah, they must be hiding their F-16s, tanks and depleted uranium shells under their mattresses..:rolleyes: Would you ever get real.

youcrazyjesus!

I think it's being bogged down in minor details, such as whether it was a 155mm shell or a tank or whatever. I'll finish by point to this article by John Pilger today:

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519

It sees the big picture of what's happening in Gaza, while I don't agree with all of it I agree with much of it and the sentiment.

uprising

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Maybe Hamas are saving their super weapons for when things really get bad.

LIKE LAST WEEK MAYBE, JUST A THOUGHT!

uprising

concussion wrote: »

Steviemak said 'let the aid workers into Gaza'

I'm pointing out that there are already aid workers in Gaza.



Tell me what's not credible
Tell me where I've contradicted myself
What have I invented?

I'll eagerly jump out of bed in the morning to see your reply...


EDIT



You seem a tad excited.

Breathe

I said other parties have claimed they had that stuff. I believe they have everything but the anti aircraft missiles. Israel and Fatah claim they have them.

I can see a MOSSAD spook reading this now cringeing,........ go to bed, your as useful as an ashtray on a HONDA 50

uprising

CONCUSSION, DO YOU REALLY WANT ME TO GO BACK AND QUOTE YOU, PUT THEM IN ORDER, THEN SIT AND LAUGH AT YOU?

Steviemak

Four exhausted children have been discovered cowering in a house next to the bodies of their mothers by staff of the International Committee of the Red Cross, which today accused the Israeli military of "unacceptable" delays in allowing medics safe access to injured Gazans.

The Red Cross workers found the small children, who were so weak they could not stand, sheltering next to the bodies of their mothers in a house in Zeitoun, southeast of Gaza City. Another man was found alive, but again too weak to stand. At least 12 bodies were lying on mattresses.

In another house nearby they found 15 survivors, several of whom were wounded. There were three more bodies in a third house. On Wednesday, a Palestinian volunteer with the Red Crescent who was in the same convoy described seeing dozens of dead bodies. Among those killed when the houses were shelled on Monday were three small boys, all from the Samouni family.

The Red Cross said Israeli soldiers were posted just 80 metres away and had several positions nearby, including two tanks.

It was a "shocking incident," said Pierre Wettach, head of the Red Cross delegation for Israel and the Palestinian territories. "The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestine Red Crescent to assist the wounded," he said

The Red Cross said Israel had breached international humanitarian law by not allowing access to the wounded and said it "considers the delay in allowing rescue services access unacceptable".

NICE GUYS THOSE SOLDIERS - REAL SALT OF THE EARTH. its amazing what dehumanising the enemy can achieve.

sceptre

Uprising, a little bit of calm, decorum and immensely more politeness would make me much happier as a moderator right now.

The only reason I'm not banning you right now for being directly insulting to another member is because this whole IL/PS conflict tends to get people rather emotional. I'm currently being generous, please keep that in mind with every letter you type on this forum in the future as I don't have any more generosity available to you. Indeed, my fellow moderators may not have the same generosity as I do right now and if they don't, I don't have a problem with that.

And both of you, stop typing in colour. It's annoying and tantamount to screaming, when you've already got nice italics and bold script to be able to occasionally type in using the nice normal typeface size.

ionix5891

whats with all the bold and red text calm down people please

Manic Moran

Now come on manic, the JerusalemPost?, will my posts be credible if I back them up with quotes from JihadNow.com?

Depends on how verifiable the claims quoted are. If it's an absolute which is very easy to determine if they're wrong, then they're worth considering. "They are in hospital with gunshot wounds" is very difficult to spin no matter how biased you are, especially if, as the newspaper claims, the hospital is giving verification over the 'phone. I'm sure the truth on something this simple will out eventually.

Your former president manic giving his views, is he a lying nazi?

I doubt it, unless he joined the National-Socialist Party after leaving office. I think I would have heard if he had, though.

Isn't Godwin supposed to be invoked by the pro-Israeli side, by the way?

NTM

youcrazyjesus!

Manic I too got my quite from the JPost, the medic got info from IDF troops, we'll see what the facts are.