1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

uprising

Manic Moran wrote: »

Isn't Godwin supposed to be invoked by the pro-Israeli side, by the way?

NTM

Godwins law went out the window waaaaay back, anyway I should have said "Your former president manic giving his views.", maybe I was presuming, anyway its irrelevent.

The Saint

Manic Moran wrote: »

It seems that the confusion over the truck/aid worker thing is continuing.

The confident reports that the truck was hit by tank shells would appear to be in conflict with the fact that the three victims (one dead, two wounded) are in an Israeli hospital with gunshot wounds, not fragmentation. So there is a very definite and provable hole in the UN side of the story to begin with.

In the meantime, an MDA medic is saying gunfire came from the Palestinian side. The IDF still doesn't seem to have a clue as to what happened, and MDA and PRC can't even agree as to who went in to collect the wounded and how they ended up in an Israeli hospital.

Even the UN Spokesman (Mr Miron) doesn't seem to know if the truck was coming or going. The UN director, Mr Ging, is also not certain that the fire came from the Israeli side. He was asked a direct question by a reporter on issue. He says "There is a conflict going on." At least he's got his head screwed on right.

Yet apparently we have uncontrovertible proof of Israeli wrongdoing...

NTM

OK, I've post this a few times and you don't seem to want to respond to it. I'm posting this hoping for a response from you and Sand:
Well I'd take what the Israeli military say with a very large pinch of salt. They said there was Hamas fighters launching rockets or mortars from there. A UN spokesman said that while they weren't certain they didn't think that this was the case around the time of the attack.

After every major incident with mass killings and killing of UN personnelle the Israeli army usually immidiately state that they were being attacked from that position, it was being used as a launching pad, it was a storehouse, etc. When the UN state that they think differently and conduct an investigation they are usually proved to be right and the Israelis tend to stay quiet. This is the same with regard to human rights organizations. By the time the investigation is done it's not news anymore.

This has been the case in:
Bombing of a UN compound in Qana killing 106 in 1996
Killing of a UNRWA worker in a UN compond in Jenin in 2002
Destruction of a UN World Food Programme warehouse
Bombing of a house in Qana killing 54 people in 2006

I'm sure there are more if I could be bothered looking. In all these cases the Israeli's initially stated that they were being attacked from these positions or that there were terrorists there. In each case when an independent investigation was carried out they were proved to be false.

Israel seems to have a default position when things like this happen so I think it would be wise to take what they say with a generous dose of salt. I'll wait for the independent investigation into this but history leads to me lean more towards the UN's version of events.


No can you please point out any event where the UN have said one thing, the IDF said another and the IDF being proved correct?

The Saint

Sand wrote: »

One thing thats interesting - assuming a deal is reached, what sort of fallout would hit the Israeli domestic scene if the release of Gilat Shalit [ assuming he hasnt been murdered yet ] wasnt part of that deal?

Its got to be a high priority for Israeli negotiators, a big PR victory in bringing their guy home.

What about these people?

Administrative detention is detention without charge or trial, authorized by administrative order rather than by judicial decree. It is allowed under international law, but, because of the serious injury to due process rights inherent in this measure and the obvious danger of abuse, international law has placed rigid restrictions on its application. Administrative detention is intended to prevent the danger posed to state security by a particular individual. Israel, however, has never defined the criteria for what constitutes "state security."

Israel's use of administrative detention blatantly violates these restrictions. Over the years, Israel has held Palestinians in prolonged detention without trying them and without informing them of the suspicions against them. While detainees may appeal the detention, neither they nor their attorneys are allowed to see the evidence. Israel has therefore made a charade out of the entire system of procedural safeguards in both domestic and international law regarding the right to liberty and due process.

---

As of November 2008, Israel is holding about 570 Palestinians in administrative detention in facilities run by the Israel Prison Service (IPS).

http://www.btselem.org/English/Administrative_Detention/

elshambo

PeakOutput wrote: »

if the british bombed dublin tomorrow and we had the ability to strike back with force we would and we would be right

if we attacked england tomorrow the british would retaliate with extreme force to protect their people and they would be right

the israeli government is there to protect israelis and while i dont think they are doing a good job they have an immensely difficult situation on their hands

the palestinian government either needs to ask for help to get rid of the terrorists or it needs to get rid of them themselves if they dont then you have to wonder why they dont?

i think neither side is right here and its very easy for us to sit here thousands of miles away and judge peoples decisions when rockets are being fired in both directions

So what your saying is that in the 80's when some bloke('s) from Kerry/Cork/Dublin blew up a carpet factory in London, you would have been fine with England dropping bombs on a housing estate/school/hospital in your neighbourhood?

In fact you are disappointed that they didnt!?:eek::o

Terrorists will act like terrorists
Goverments who are backed by world superpowers really should not!
Ohh and goverments acting like terrorists only creates terrorists,
See Bloody Sunday's effect on IRA membership!

Nodin

concussion wrote: »

Fatah has claimed ..... Both Fatah and Isreal claim ......Hamas has itself claimed ........ .

Yep. That they did.

Serenity Now!

All the one-eyed comments here would be hilarious if the subject wasn't so grave but the one article that hit the nail on the head (Prof. Neve Gordon in Irish Times & Guardian) was largely ignored.
It gave four reasons on why Israel have done what they have done.

And of course, the fact that the other side of the coin continually firing rockets ("not many though" being basically how the ISPC spokesman, Morrison tried to claim that ceasefire was adhered to) during an alleged ceasefire would unsurprisingly spark off this action went largely ignored. Not justifying the action, of course. Not by a long stretch. Still, the efforts here by many monocular posters to justify everything or even exonerate Hamas of any degree of participation or cause is typical and hypocritical of the armchair/search-box 'activist'

concussion

uprising wrote: »

CONCUSSION, DO YOU REALLY WANT ME TO GO BACK AND QUOTE YOU, PUT THEM IN ORDER, THEN SIT AND LAUGH AT YOU?

Yeah, go on, state clearly what you allude to rather than throwing wild allegations around.

Danuogma wrote: »

Yeah, they must be hiding their F-16s, tanks and depleted uranium shells under their mattresses..:rolleyes: Would you ever get real.

The point which seems to have escaped you is that Hamas is not a few hundred people with assault rifles and some homemade explosives, they are well armed with infantry support weapons.

Steviemak wrote: »

The Red Cross said Israeli soldiers were posted just 80 metres away and had several positions nearby, including two tanks.

Thanks for that, where's it from - I couldn't find any update on this. AP carried a report saying aid workers could not get to bodies for six days due to the fighting (which is the point I was making about it being too dangerous for aid workers) but this looks inexcusable.

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. That they did.

They did indeed. And when both Israel and Fatah say Hamas have them there's a good chance the do. Especially when Hamas have said in the past they want them.

wes

Serenity Now! wrote: »

All the one-eyed comments here would be hilarious if the subject wasn't so grave but the one article that hit the nail on the head (Prof. Neve Gordon in Irish Times & Guardian) was largely ignored.
It gave four reasons on why Israel have done what they have done.

And of course, the fact that the other side of the coin continually firing rockets ("not many though" being basically how the ISPC spokesman, Morrison tried to claim that ceasefire was adhered to) during an alleged ceasefire would unsurprisingly spark off this action went largely ignored. Not justifying the action, of course. Not by a long stretch. Still, the efforts here by many monocular posters to justify everything or even exonerate Hamas of any degree of participation or cause is typical and hypocritical of the armchair/search-box 'activist'

You would think that the occupation and the blockade never exisited or something. Odd how you leave those out.

Macha

Serenity Now! wrote: »

All the one-eyed comments here would be hilarious if the subject wasn't so grave but the one article that hit the nail on the head (Prof. Neve Gordon in Irish Times & Guardian) was largely ignored.
It gave four reasons on why Israel have done what they have done.

Er...quote from Neve Gordon article in the Guardian:

If the Israeli government really cared about its citizens and the country's long term ability to sustain itself in the Middle East, it would abandon the use of violence and talk with its enemies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/29/israelandthepalestinians-middleeast

I'll make the point again: Israel broke the ceasefire and refuses to enter talks with Hamas. They have it within their power to end the violence and start talks but they choose not to.

CK.1

From http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/gaza.html (at end of the page)

Israeli minister criticises Irish Government

A senior Israeli cabinet member has criticised the Irish Government for what he described as its one-sided condemnation of Israel's offensive against Hamas.

Isaac Herzog said he was personally offended by the Government's comments.

He said 'I would expect them to understand where we are, to understand that any democratically elected government needs to defend its people.'

Mr Herzog is the son of Chaim Herzog, the Irish-born former president of Israel, and the grandson of Isaac Herzog, the former Chief Rabbi of Ireland and the first Chief Rabbi of the new Israeli state.

He is the Israeli Minister for Welfare and an influential member of Israel's security cabinet.

In an interview with RTÉ, he referred to unspecified condemnation of Israel's actions by Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin.

'Where was the Irish Government in these comments, why did we have to read only Israel is to blame, and [no criticism] of Hamas and its influence in the region and its fundamentalist and fanatical hatred of Israel,' he said.

He said he took note of the comments and, with due respect, resented them, adding that the EU had declared Hamas a terrorist organisation.

Serenity Now!

taconnol wrote: »

Er...quote from Neve Gordon article in the Guardian:
I'll make the point again: Israel broke the ceasefire and refuses to enter talks with Hamas. They have it within their power to end the violence and start talks but they choose not to.

Yes, Prof.Gordon proposes a peaceful solution. Not a violent solution.

Hamas broke the ceasefire, by continually firing rockets through it. Even the political spokesman of ISPC, Morrison, admits this (though by his rhetoric, he does so wholly unintentionally). He, like yourself, claims that Israel broke the ceasefire in November of last year while throughout there was "not much rocket or mortar fire from Gaza". Not much?? lol
The word 'ceasefire' means exactly as it sounds: To cease firing :rolleyes:

Then someone here will no doubt try to justify their rocket firing in which case this would decree that they too are against a peaceful solution.
What now? Some lies about Hamas recognising Israel and wanting to talk? If they want peaceful negotiations then they should prove it.
The Israeli govt are not the only ones who have definitely gone about this every which way they shouldn't have. Likewise, the constant limp noodle justification of Hamas' actions is equally as hypocritical.

wes

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Yes, Prof.Gordon proposes a peaceful solution. Not a violent solution.

Hamas broke the ceasefire, by continually firing rockets through it. Even the political spokesman of ISPC, Morrison, admits this (though by his rhetoric, he does so wholly unintentionally). He, like yourself, claims that Israel broke the ceasefire in November of last year while throughout there was "not much rocket or mortar fire from Gaza". Not much?? lol
The word 'ceasefire' means exactly as it sounds: To cease firing :rolleyes:

Then someone here will no doubt try to justify their rocket firing in which case this would decree that they too are against a peaceful solution.
What now? Some lies about Hamas recognising Israel and wanting to talk? If they want peaceful negotiations then they should prove it.
The Israeli govt are not the only ones who have definitely gone about this every which way they shouldn't have. Likewise, the constant limp noodle justification of Hamas' actions is equally as hypocritical.

Why no mention of the occupation or the blockade?

Israel were suppose to ease the blockade as well, but they never bothered. There hardly innocent in the current fighting.

I find it odd that its apparently Israel can bring 1.5 million people to the brink of starvation and it is not considered agression.

**EDIT**

Then there is the constant land theft in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Ping Chow Chi

Steviemak wrote: »

NICE GUYS THOSE SOLDIERS - REAL SALT OF THE EARTH. its amazing what dehumanising the enemy can achieve.

Which I think is the route of it all, it would appear that large parts of both sides view the other side as something less than human.

wes

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

Which I think is the route of it all, it would appear that large parts of both sides view the other side as something less than human.

Yeah, that pretty much the way it seems at this point.

ionix5891

CK.1 wrote: »

From http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/gaza.html (at end of the page)

Israeli minister criticises Irish Government

A senior Israeli cabinet member has criticised the Irish Government for what he described as its one-sided condemnation of Israel's offensive against Hamas.

Isaac Herzog said he was personally offended by the Government's comments.

He said 'I would expect them to understand where we are, to understand that any democratically elected government needs to defend its people.'

Mr Herzog is the son of Chaim Herzog, the Irish-born former president of Israel, and the grandson of Isaac Herzog, the former Chief Rabbi of Ireland and the first Chief Rabbi of the new Israeli state.

He is the Israeli Minister for Welfare and an influential member of Israel's security cabinet.

In an interview with RTÉ, he referred to unspecified condemnation of Israel's actions by Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin.

'Where was the Irish Government in these comments, why did we have to read only Israel is to blame, and [no criticism] of Hamas and its influence in the region and its fundamentalist and fanatical hatred of Israel,' he said.

He said he took note of the comments and, with due respect, resented them, adding that the EU had declared Hamas a terrorist organisation.

the Government should send Israel a mail along the lines of

we dont deal with terrorists


that always works in 24

concussion

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

Which I think is the route of it all, it would appear that large parts of both sides view the other side as something less than human.

And the current fighting is just repeating the cycle that's been going on for years. Part of me idly thinks that in the bad old days of swords and spears there'd be no international mandates and restrictions and that the Israelis and the rest of the middle east would just fight it out until someone won outright. At least it would be settled then

Anyway, here's some policical cartoons I've come across, no reference to anyones previous posts here.

Macha

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Hamas broke the ceasefire, by continually firing rockets through it. Even the political spokesman of ISPC, Morrison, admits this (though by his rhetoric, he does so wholly unintentionally). He, like yourself, claims that Israel broke the ceasefire in November of last year while throughout there was "not much rocket or mortar fire from Gaza". Not much?? lol
The word 'ceasefire' means exactly as it sounds: To cease firing :rolleyes:

Sorry but whatever about opinions, you can't argue with facts. Israel broke the ceasefire:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html

Second, and just as important, what happened to end this striking period of peace? On November 4th, Israel killed a Palestinian, an event that was followed by a volley of mortars fired from Gaza. Immediately after that, an Israeli air strike killed six more Palestinians. Then a massive barrage of rockets was unleashed, leading to the end of the ceasefire.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Then someone here will no doubt try to justify their rocket firing in which case this would decree that they too are against a peaceful solution.
What now? Some lies about Hamas recognising Israel and wanting to talk? If they want peaceful negotiations then they should prove it.
The Israeli govt are not the only ones who have definitely gone about this every which way they shouldn't have. Likewise, the constant limp noodle justification of Hamas' actions is equally as hypocritical.

Again, you need to get your facts straight:

Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Perhaps the best paragraph is this one:

This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so.

Hamas are no angels and they bear a large part of the responsibility as well. But the power lies in the hands of the Israelis to stop the violence but that's not what they want. As Wes pointed out, the blockade of Gaza has to be taken into consideration as an aggressive act.

concussion

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry but whatever about opinions, you can't argue with facts. Israel broke the ceasefire:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html

Just to point out, that report shows Hamas firing rockets in July, August, September and October.

Macha

concussion wrote: »

Just to point out, that report shows Hamas firing rockets in July, August, September and October.

In response to living in an open-air concentration camp? I'd consider that extremely restrained.

Nodin

concussion wrote: »

They did indeed. And when both Israel and Fatah say Hamas have them there's a good chance the do. .

No. When we have somebody not engaged in hostilities with one or other party provide evidence of them having them, then they do.

Selkies

taconnol wrote: »

In response to living in an open-air concentration camp? I'd consider that extremely restrained.

I agree, they've been especially restrained.
They haven't even fired a single rocket into Egypt.

Serenity Now!

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry but whatever about opinions, you can't argue with facts. Israel broke the ceasefire

You really should check your search results before you hastily link them.

concussion

taconnol wrote: »

Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.

What that report doesn't say is that the agreement broke down almost immediately and led to months of violence on the streets.

The marriage was short lived, however, as tesnsions between the rival Palestinian factions escalated. The new government was still unable to lift the economic embargo and living conditions continued to deteriorate. As each side jockeyed for position during the ensuing power struggle, fighting finally broke out in May. A series of cease fires could not stem the violence and by June turmoil had gripped the cities. The streets became the scenes of gruesom public executions and local government officials were forced to shut down businesses, schools, and public offices.

Continued here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas.htm

taconnol wrote: »

In response to living in an open-air concentration camp? I'd consider that extremely restrained.

All we have from that report is that Hamas fired rocket for four months during the ceasefire before the escalation as a result of Israeli action in Novemer. We don't know whether they were firing as a result of Israel reneging on the agreement or because they wanted to kill some Israelis. I can't find information showing the Israelis broke the ceasefire and would appreciate if someone can come up with it. That's a genuine request, not an underhand jibe at anyone.

Nodin wrote: »

No. When we have somebody not engaged in hostilities with one or other party provide evidence of them having them, then they do.

Yes, and until then we can say there's a good chance they have them.

Selkies

concussion wrote: »

Where is hamas on that board

Selkies

Osama Hamdan, a Hamas envoy to Lebanon, told the al-Arabiya satellite channel that the group is not interested in the resolutiom because it does not meet the demands of the movement.

Aren't their demands the destruction of the Israeli State?

bobbyjoe

Israel shelled Gaza Palestinians after evacuating them, UN saysO

CHA said the incident took place on 4 January, a day after Israel began its ground offensive in Gaza.

According to testimonies gathered by the UN, Israeli soldiers evacuated around 110 Palestinians to a single-storey house in Zeitoun, south-east Gaza. The evacuees were instructed to stay indoors for their own safety but 24 hours later the Israeli army shelled the house with rockets. Around half the Palestinians sheltering in the house were children, OCHA said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun

TMoreno

concussion wrote: »

What that report doesn't say is that the agreement broke down almost immediately and led to months of violence on the streets.

Continued here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas.htm




All we have from that report is that Hamas fired rocket for four months during the ceasefire before the escalation as a result of Israeli action in Novemer. We don't know whether they were firing as a result of Israel reneging on the agreement or because they wanted to kill some Israelis. I can't find information showing the Israelis broke the ceasefire and would appreciate if someone can come up with it. That's a genuine request, not an underhand jibe at anyone.



Yes, and until then we can say there's a good chance they have them.

The colonization of the Palestinian land by the Zionists never stopped during the so called "Peace Process" and did not stopped during the so called "Truce". That alone justifies any action of Hamas.
If you love the Zionists, give them your own country.

munchester29

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Israel shelled Gaza Palestinians after evacuating them, UN saysO

CHA said the incident took place on 4 January, a day after Israel began its ground offensive in Gaza.

According to testimonies gathered by the UN, Israeli soldiers evacuated around 110 Palestinians to a single-storey house in Zeitoun, south-east Gaza. The evacuees were instructed to stay indoors for their own safety but 24 hours later the Israeli army shelled the house with rockets. Around half the Palestinians sheltering in the house were children, OCHA said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun

Don't know how much that report can be trusetd, since everything is "According to testimonies gathered by the UN" (quoted from the article)
which means basically - Hamas said so.

concussion

TMoreno wrote: »

The colonization of the Palestinian land by the Zionists never stopped during the so called "Peace Process" and did not stopped during the so called "Truce". That alone justifies any action of Hamas.
If you love the Zionists, give them your own country.

Israel removed (forcibly in some cases) it's settlers from Gaza over three years ago.

I don't love them and Ireland is not mine to give away. They also wouldn't want it as it's a bit far away from where they believe they should have their home.

munchester29

TMoreno wrote: »

The colonization of the Palestinian land by the Zionists never stopped during the so called "Peace Process" and did not stopped during the so called "Truce". That alone justifies any action of Hamas.
If you love the Zionists, give them your own country.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, and all it got in return was 8000 rockets on Israeli cities, and various attacks on its citizens.

Hamas was practically begging for Israel to attack them back for over 3 years now, especially in 2008 when over 3000 rockets were fired into Israel, including during the cease fire.