1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

The Saint

mike65 wrote: »

Still the good news for this thread is that both Hamas and Israel have rejected the ceasefire plan.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5482230.ece

:pac::pac::pac:Ha, nice the way you can put a positive spin on things.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

The article quote a contratrian professor. So pure nonsense.

Ok, here we go, a few more links that support the claim. The Quran says Israel belongs to the Jews (some have quotatins from the Quran):

http://wingless.aoriginality.com/?p=15

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50819

http://revver.com/video/1078012/israel-belongs-to-the-jews-according-to-quran-deedat/

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/91-1640.aspx

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1232

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081215101432AAQbZCx

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=89443

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/101.htm

munchester29

TMoreno wrote: »

I read the article. Bravo, it's an excellent example of Zionist propaganda. Finding one Zionist-Arab to justify the theft of Palestine, is always a great performance.
By the way Palestine is not a religion. The Palestinians can be Christians, Muslim and Jewish.

read the quotations from the Quran itself. They are very clear.

I have never heard of a Jewish Palestinian...

TMoreno

munchester29 wrote: »

Ok, here we go, a few more links that support the claim. The Quran says Israel belongs to the Jews (some have quotatins from the Quran):

http://wingless.aoriginality.com/?p=15

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50819

http://revver.com/video/1078012/israel-belongs-to-the-jews-according-to-quran-deedat/

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/91-1640.aspx

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1232

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081215101432AAQbZCx

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=89443

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/101.htm

Zionists propaganda always the same sources.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

Ok, here we go, a few more links that support the claim. The Quran says Israel belongs to the Jews (some have quotatins from the Quran):

http://wingless.aoriginality.com/?p=15

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50819

http://revver.com/video/1078012/israel-belongs-to-the-jews-according-to-quran-deedat/

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/91-1640.aspx

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1232

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081215101432AAQbZCx

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=89443

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/101.htm

Yawn. Not this sh1t again. I don't care who's book says what. I'll stick with international law.

munchester29

TMoreno wrote: »

Zionists propaganda always the same sources.

Funny how every time you encounter something that disproves what you say or believe it is always Zionist propaganda, even if it is claimed by a Muslim, who probably knows a bit more than you do about the Quran.

IRISH RAIL

TMoreno wrote: »

Zionists propaganda always the same sources.

Everyone can say the same about Hamas propoganda.

munchester29

The Saint wrote: »

Yawn. Not this sh1t again. I don't care who's book says what. I'll stick with international law.

I agree. International law states Israel (borders of 1967) belongs to the Israelis.

Steviemak

concussion wrote: »

I don't love them and Ireland is not mine to give away.

And Palestine is not theirs to take

IRISH RAIL

an Interesting video

http://www.memritv.org/video.html

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

I agree. International law states Israel (borders of 1967) belongs to the Israelis.

And Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem belong to the Palestinians.

I'm not trying to back seat Mod but can I request from a Mod that they ban or delete posts about Biblical references about the conflict? It detracts from the arguement and diverts attention away from serious discussion as well as being completely stupid.

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

Never was a Palestinian land, even according to the Quran:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38872

The article doesn't state that. It says a "A contrarian Muslim professor claims the Quran.....".

It was pointed out earlier in the thread that religous claims have no place here.

munchester29 wrote: »

I have never heard of a Jewish Palestinian...

Then you should really educate yourself. Jews originate from Palestine, as do muslim Palestinians. And we don't have to refer to a holy book to prove this conclusively either -

As posted before wrote:

Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim in 2000 matched historical accounts that Arab Israelis and Palestinians,[70][71] together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously Christianized and later largely Islamized, then both ultimately becoming culturally Arabized.[72] Referring to those of the Muslim faith more specifically, it reaffirmed that Palestinian "MuslimArabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel, Sinai and part of Jordan." Geneticist Michael Hammer praised "the study for 'focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations.'" [73] The study proposes that:

...More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years...found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews.[74]

(my bold)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, maybe if Hamas stopped its aggression, Israel would have released the blockade?

It is a fact that since Israel left Gaza, the border passes were opened as long as Hamas didn't mount an attack on Israel.

Maybe if Israel stopped stealing Palestinian land, Hamas wouldn't attack. Its really easy to do the same thing.

The fact is Israel did not leave Gaze, they contolled the air, the sea and land borders (with collusion from Egypt and the US).

Again, the collective punishment of 1.5 million people can not in anyway shape or form excused. It is state terrorism pure and simple and the actions of Hamas does not justify Israel state terrorism.

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

an Interesting video

http://www.memritv.org/video.html

No, its not from a news source or NGO, but an organisation that has caused contoversy a number of times with its "translations", as a cursory web search shows. This was brought to your attention earlier.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

I didn't say there wasn't a humanitarian crisis, but this crisis has been a ver long one, yet no Palestinians dead of starvation.
This doesn't interfere with people saying that Israel is starving the Palestinians to death, which never happened.

I have used the words "brink" personally.

Also, according to reports Palestinians children are suffering from severe mal nutrition. So stop trying to pretend there not hungry.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Ok, here we go, a few more links that support the claim. The Quran says Israel belongs to the Jews (some have quotatins from the Quran):

http://wingless.aoriginality.com/?p=15

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50819

http://revver.com/video/1078012/israel-belongs-to-the-jews-according-to-quran-deedat/

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/91-1640.aspx

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1232

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081215101432AAQbZCx

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=89443

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/101.htm

Ah man, your sources speak for themselves. Full of complete nonsense.

I am a Muslim and I know the Koran personally and have access to plenty of Imams educated in Medina and other authoritative Islamic institutions.

Everyone single one of those articles is nonsense plain and simple and none of those sites come from authortitative Islamic instituations.

Also, several of those sites are pretty anti-Muslim in nature, particularly Daniel Pipes one.

TMoreno

munchester29 wrote: »

Funny how every time you encounter something that disproves what you say or believe it is always Zionist propaganda, even if it is claimed by a Muslim, who probably knows a bit more than you do about the Quran.

One Muslim does not represent all the Muslims. You chose the only one who can back up your idea.
However this is a political issue, not a religious issue.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Funny how every time you encounter something that disproves what you say or believe it is always Zionist propaganda, even if it is claimed by a Muslim, who probably knows a bit more than you do about the Quran.

I am a Muslim and can say those claims are nonsense.

Also, what the Koran and Bible say have no bearing on the conflict.

All that matters is International law, which Israel breaks all the time. Nothing is ever done about this.

However, when Hamas does it, 1.5 million people are punished by Israel and the US.

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

Then you should really educate yourself. Jews originate from Palestine, as do muslim Palestinians. And we don't have to refer to a holy book to prove this conclusively either -

(my bold)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

Excellent, so basically, we can agree that at most, both Palestinians and Israelis have the same right to the land.

(I always said the Palestinian/Israel conflict is actually a family feud)

munchester29

wes wrote: »

I am a Muslim and can say those claims are nonsense.

Are you a practicing Muslim or a Muslim cleric?
The one I quoted is a Muslim cleric, and my assumption was a cleric would have the best knowledge in regards to their faith.

munchester29

munchester29 wrote: »

Ok, here we go, a few more links that support the claim. The Quran says Israel belongs to the Jews (some have quotatins from the Quran):

http://wingless.aoriginality.com/?p=15

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/50819

http://revver.com/video/1078012/israel-belongs-to-the-jews-according-to-quran-deedat/

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/91-1640.aspx

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1232

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081215101432AAQbZCx

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=89443

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/101.htm

Religion is used to justify lots of crazy things. Sure they burnt 'witches' in the middle ages in the name of God!
I find it reprehensible that Religion is used as an excuse for ethnic cleansing. And if you say that its the home of the Jewish faith therefore its their land then you must also remember its the home of the Christian faith so does the Vatican have a right to take over Palestine? I dont think so.

Anyway lets look at the facts:

Prior to the state of Israel being set up a Jewish state only controlled all that land for 70 years,around the time of King Solomon,ending in 926 BC. 250 years later the Kingdom of Judah had shrunk to a tiny province around Jerusalem. Later on the Romans came along and ended it all.
Sometime after that the land was populated and controlled by Muslims for 1300 years.

During that time Jewish people lived there peacefully with their Muslims neighbours. In fact you will find history tells us that it is traditionally those of the Christian faith that have persecuted Jews far more then Muslims...

Steviemak

Lets get this clear - the great majority of right thinking people on this forum despise the actions of Hamas just as much as the actions of Israel. However, the reason I am so upset with what Israel is doing is because they are supposed to be the ones representing my western values in the region. They are held up as the shining light in the region yet they are acting like animals over there. We should be holding them to the same standards as I would hold my society to. Stealing peoples land, bulldozing properties, cutting off electriticy and water, collective punishment, not allowing exports, not allowing aid, killing women and children with impunity, using kids as human shields by tying them to armoured vehicles, not letting university graduates take up scholarships outside of Gaza, letting dead bodies rot beside your tank, letting injured people die while you do nothing, bombing schools and aid convoys etc etc etc - all of these things go against every value I believe in. Its not about race, history, religion - its about justice for oppressed people. If it was the other way round and I was an Arab and the Paletinians were doing this to the Israelis I would be equally upset.

This has to stop now as much for Israels sake as the Palestinians. I really fear for that country if it continues down the road to oblivion. And any friend of Israel would speak up and say enough. It needs friends in the region not enemies - the US will not be able to protect it forever and when that happens the whole world will suffer.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

I have used the words "brink" personally.

Also, according to reports Palestinians children are suffering from severe mal nutrition. So stop trying to pretend there not hungry.

If they are hungry, then you need to blame Hamas - Hamas directs all the resources they have, all EU donations they receive towards arming themselves, and fighting Israel.
There were also reports of Hamas confiscations of supplies sent to the Palestinians, to be distributed to Hamas activists.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Are you a practicing Muslim or a Muslim cleric?
The one I quoted is a Muslim cleric, and my assumption was a cleric would have the best knowledge in regards to their faith.

I know plenty of Muslim clerics and was taught by them. I am not talking about 1, I am talking about several, since I was 5 or 6 years old.

I also have access to plenty of Imams, there just a phone call away if I was bothered enough.

Also, your own article stated it was a contratrian opinion. You choose to ignore that fact, that was included in your own link. You continued insistance that you provided a authoratative source is astonishing, when your own link stated that the source is not authoratative.

Also, what the Koran/Bible/Mahabarat or any other holy texts has no bearing on the topic.

IRISH RAIL

Nodin wrote: »

No, its not from a news source or NGO, but an organisation that has caused contoversy a number of times with its "translations", as a cursory web search shows. This was brought to your attention earlier.

a cursory web search like this

http://www.counterpunch.org/harris01152003.html

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

If they are hungry, then you need to blame Hamas - Hamas directs all the resources they have, all EU donations they receive towards arming themselves, and fighting Israel.

They don't.

One of the reason there so popular is that they are one of the few people on the ground taking care of the average person. They are as much a charity as they are terrorists.

munchester29 wrote: »

There were also reports of Hamas confiscations of supplies sent to the Palestinians, to be distributed to Hamas activists.

The fault is Israel's they are the ones doing the blockading not Hamas. There are not enough supplies to go round period. This is due to the blockade.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

a cursory web search like this

http://www.counterpunch.org/harris01152003.html

Source watch on Memri

Posted it earlier, but there it is again.

Plenty more like it online.

ionix5891

not only that but Israel never stopped colonizing and building settlements, private roads and huge Wall in the West Bank, well outside their Borders


to make a NI analogy like the British Army building a wall deep thru Donegal during the Troubles, and religious nuts evicting people from their farms and land building settlements as far south as Galway, and the latest Gaza incident would be like Dublin being sieged and starved for years by the same heavily armed crowd, only to be bombed later on


theres no excuse for Israeli "excursions" like this outside their borders, its a freaking land grab, the more "facts" they have on the ground they lower any chance of peace

marius

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

a cursory web search like this

http://www.counterpunch.org/harris01152003.html

Did you read all of that article? The first paragraph is an aplopgy for claiming Memri mis-translate intentionally......the second paragraph goes on to further clarify the flawed and misleading practises Memri uses as part of its propaganda.

Did you actually post that link in defense of Memri?

concussion

TMoreno wrote: »

They removed Zionists colons and put them somewhere else on Palestinian land.

That happened before the cease fire which we are discussing. The settlers were removed from Gaza in 2005 and all troops pulled out.A mini civil war broke out in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah in 2007 and lasted for months before Hamas asserted themselves. Then in 2008 came the ceasefire, yet Hamas rockets never stopped. So unfortunately I still remain unconvinced that Israel broke the ceasefire.

Regarding the supply of food to Gaza, Hamas has smuggled 'several hundred tons' (possilbly up to 1400 tons) of weapons into Gaza (referenced in previous posts) - yet no food for their people? Hamas don't care about Palestinians, they care about power for themselves (as seen by the reports on the conflict with Fatah and the Amnesty International report cited earlier) and death to Israel.
Here's another report on the fighting between Hamas and Fatah

Today I have seen people shot before my eyes, I heard the screams of terrified women and children in a burning building, and I argued with gunmen who wanted to take over my home.
I have seen a lot in my years as a journalist in Gaza, but this is the worst it's been.
...
If you have a beard, you might be arrested by Fatah security for looking Islamic. If you have a chain around your neck or on your arm, Hamas gunmen might shoot you because you look secular.
...
The random use of weapons and explosives is out of control. People who consider themselves the elite, the politicians, sit with the Egyptian mediators at night and then come out with statements about a truce, and in the morning we see the opposite has occurred. These people are not controlling anything.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708618493&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



This happened 18 months ago - did the world care back then?