1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Steviemak

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

an Interesting video

http://www.memritv.org/video.html

Imagine some of the outrageous stuff in the this video being able to gain any traction with the masses if the Israelis treated the Palestinians with the exact same respect as they treated Jews. It wouldn't happen.

This sort of retoric can only gain traction when injustice is rife. Humans are Humans everywhere - treat them with respect and diginty and by and large (a few nut jobs not withstanding) they will not be taken in by any of the **** Hamas speak. Hamas would be consigned to the margins and the Palestinian elections would probably be about health care rather than war. (just look at how politics in the north are changing as conditions there change).

People just want to live their life free and raise their kids in safety. Liberty, Eqaulity and Fraternity for all people.

marius

Steviemak wrote: »

Lets get this clear - the great majority of right thinking people on this forum despise the actions of Hamas just as much as the actions of Israel. However, the reason I am so upset with what Israel is doing is because they are supposed to be the ones representing my western values in the region. They are held up as the shining light in the region yet they are acting like animals over there. We should be holding them to the same standards as I would hold my society to. Stealing peoples land, bulldozing properties, cutting off electriticy and water, collective punishment, not allowing exports, not allowing aid, killing women and children with impunity, using kids as human shields by tying them to armoured vehicles, not letting university graduates take up scholarships outside of Gaza, letting dead bodies rot beside your tank, letting injured people die while you do nothing, bombing schools and aid convoys etc etc etc - all of these things go against every value I believe in. Its not about race, history, religion - its about justice for oppressed people. If it was the other way round and I was an Arab and the Paletinians were doing this to the Israelis I would be equally upset.

This has to stop now as much for Israels sake as the Palestinians. I really fear for that country if it continues down the road to oblivion. And any friend of Israel would speak up and say enough. It needs friends in the region not enemies - the US will not be able to protect it forever and when that happens the whole world will suffer.

Pretty much my sentiments exactly....

munchester29

Steviemak wrote: »

Lets get this clear - the great majority of right thinking people on this forum despise the actions of Hamas just as much as the actions of Israel. However, the reason I am so upset with what Israel is doing is because they are supposed to be the ones representing my western values in the region. They are held up as the shining light in the region yet they are acting like animals over there. We should be holding them to the same standards as I would hold my society to. Stealing peoples land, bulldozing properties, cutting off electriticy and water, collective punishment, not allowing exports, not allowing aid, killing women and children with impunity, using kids as human shields by tying them to armoured vehicles, not letting university graduates take up scholarships outside of Gaza, letting dead bodies rot beside your tank, letting injured people die while you do nothing, bombing schools and aid convoys etc etc etc - all of these things go against every value I believe in. Its not about race, history, religion - its about justice for oppressed people. If it was the other way round and I was an Arab and the Paletinians were doing this to the Israelis I would be equally upset.

This has to stop now as much for Israels sake as the Palestinians. I really fear for that country if it continues down the road to oblivion. And any friend of Israel would speak up and say enough. It needs friends in the region not enemies - the US will not be able to protect it forever and when that happens the whole world will suffer.

You position is very naïve. What you don't seem to understand, is that Hamas just doesn't follow your "western values". Read the Hamas charter, education is important to understand who they are.

Every time Israel makes a step in the right direction towards peace, a faith building step such as leaving Gaza to the Palestinians, all they get in return are increased attacks from Hamas. Yet you expect them to do nothing?

The steps Israel takes to protect its citizens are extremely reserved. Any other country in the world would have already flattened Gaza if they were attacked like Israel is.
Israel could have ended this conflict very easily by flattening Gaza. It would have only taken them a few days.

As for your comment:
“If it was the other way round and I was an Arab and the Paletinians were doing this to the Israelis I would be equally upset”

Were you upset when Hamas fired over 3000 rockets on Israel in 2008?
Did you protest? Did you post on boards and condemned that action?
Have you ever protested suicide bombings?
Did you protest when Hamas were killing Fatah members in 2007, killing many Palestinian women & children in the process (350 dead Palestinians according to reserved estimates)?

Do you think your protest would have had any influence on Hamas?

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

They don't.

One of the reason there so popular is that they are one of the few people on the ground taking care of the average person.

by taking care you mean using them as human shields placing rocket launchers in thier back gardens knowing israel will respond and stealing billions in aid 1.35 billion in 2006 where did that go to ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/21/world/middleeast/21palestinians.html

let me show you
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/25/jordan.hamas/index.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11103540

but of course zionist propaganda isnt it :rolleyes:

youcrazyjesus!

concussion wrote: »

Just to point out, that report shows Hamas firing rockets in July, August, September and October.

It shows somebody fired rockets. Hamas isnot the only militant group in Gaza. Hamas jailed some of those
launching rockets during the summer. Source: New York Times

munchester29

ionix5891 wrote: »

not only that but Israel never stopped colonizing and building settlements, private roads and huge Wall in the West Bank, well outside their Borders


to make a NI analogy like the British Army building a wall deep thru Donegal during the Troubles, and religious nuts evicting people from their farms and land building settlements as far south as Galway, and the latest Gaza incident would be like Dublin being sieged and starved for years by the same heavily armed crowd, only to be bombed later on


theres no excuse for Israeli "excursions" like this outside their borders, its a freaking land grab, the more "facts" they have on the ground they lower any chance of peace

The Israelis are very rude. How dare they do stuff and not sit quietly while being slaughtered? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Don't know how much that report can be trusetd, since everything is "According to testimonies gathered by the UN" (quoted from the article)
which means basically - Hamas said so.

What utter tripe you come out with. Nonsense. Dismissing UN reports instantly by renaming them Hamas reports is a new low for the debate. Not even the Israeli official spokesmen would dare make such a preposterous claim.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

by taking care you mean using them as human shields placing rocket launchers in thier back gardens knowing israel will respond and stealing billions in aid 1.35 billion in 2006 where did that go to ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/21/world/middleeast/21palestinians.html

let me show you
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/25/jordan.hamas/index.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11103540

but of course zionist propaganda isnt it :rolleyes:

First link is talking about 2006 and the articke itself from March 2007. So the info is 2 years old. The UN and many others have been reporting on the tightening of the blockade in recent months.

Also, I never said Hamas don't smuggle weapons. So there is no disagreement there.

One of the reason Hamas is popular is that they do take care of people. It was Fatah who stole billions away and not Hamas. I never said they don't have weapons or anything like that, they do.

Also, you 3rd article is from June 2007. The blockade has gotten worse since then as well. The second one is also from 2006, blockade has gotten much worse since then as well.

Nice try to confuse things btw, they don't contradict what I am saying at all about the blockade getting worse and worse, especially in recent months.

Maybe, you ought to read what I say. I actually said Hamas were terrorists in my post as well btw. So I am hardly denying that.

**EDIT**
Nice of you to assume, I would call your link Zionists propoganda. There from main stream sources and what there saying is correct. Correct 2 years ago in some cases, but correct nonetheless.

youcrazyjesus!

wes wrote: »

Israel then stole more land in the West Bank.

Israel did not let the Gazan control there air space, borders (in collusion with Egypt and the US) or have there own port. They didn't leave, all they did is turn it into a prison, which they then blockaded, bring a population of 1.5 million to the brink of stravation.

An Israeli Minister said "we'll put them on a diet".

Steviemak

munchester29 wrote: »

You position is very naïve. What you don't seem to understand, is that Hamas just doesn't follow your "western values". Read the Hamas charter, education is important to understand who they are.

Every time Israel makes a step in the right direction towards peace, a faith building step such as leaving Gaza to the Palestinians, all they get in return are increased attacks from Hamas. Yet you expect them to do nothing?

The steps Israel takes to protect its citizens are extremely reserved. Any other country in the world would have already flattened Gaza if they were attacked like Israel is.
Israel could have ended this conflict very easily by flattening Gaza. It would have only taken them a few days.

What part of me despising Hamas did you not get? Why when I try to analyse the actions of Israel you have to always compare it to Hamas's values which i don't share. I want to compare it to my values - as israel always claims itself to represent them.

By the way all these attrocities have been happening in the West Bank as well where Hamas do not control. Yet, unfortunately this may not be case in the future. Hamas can only grow stronger after this just like Hizbollah. And that is the great shame from this whole mess. The Palestinians will suffer even more if Hamas continue to grow.

If you think what Israel is doing is reserved then God help - i feel sorry for you.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Not what i said.

The UN are basing their findings on Palestinian testimonies, which can't be trusted.

Its not based on Palestinian or Hamas testimonies actually,and I presume you admit that the
people died yes? They're not falsifying death counts?

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

a cursory web search like this

http://www.counterpunch.org/harris01152003.html

Cursory, not a quick one resulting in a selective reading by you. You evaded the specifics of what I stated as well, I note.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/28/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker
http://www.london.gov.uk/news/docs/qaradawi_dossier.pdf
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=605

I might add that trying to portray the son of a holocaust survivor as a holocaust denier is particularily low.

wes

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

An Israeli Minister said "we'll put them on a diet".

Yeah, I remember reading that. Amazing no world leaders spoke out against that.

marius

munchester29 wrote: »

Every time Israel makes a step in the right direction towards peace, a faith building step such as leaving Gaza to the Palestinians, all they get in return are increased attacks from Hamas. Yet you expect them to do nothing?

This has been discussed ad-nauseum, you can keep on bring it up if you want but all it really shows is your inability to consider opinions that do not match your own.

Isreal went into Gaza bombed the crap out of it, bulldozed several hundred buildings, built a huge wall around it, pulled out its troops but maintained a blockade that has led to misery for 1.5 million people living there.......and you consider this a 'step in the right direction'....

youcrazyjesus!

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

an Interesting video
http://www.memritv.org/video.html

That side is propaganda, posting videos from it means
nothing.

IRISH RAIL

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

That side is propaganda, posting videos from it means
nothing.

just like your sources yeah

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/reuters-in-the-service-of-hamas/

youcrazyjesus!

marius wrote: »

This has been discussed ad-nauseum, you can keep on bring it up if you want but all it really shows is your inability to consider opinions that do not match your own.

Isreal went into Gaza bombed the crap out of it, bulldozed several hundred buildings, built a huge wall around it, pulled out its troops but maintained a blockade that has led to misery for 1.5 million people living there.......and you consider this a 'step in the right direction'....

CNN and The Guardian both reported that Israel broke the ceasefire. Besides that it was possible to retrieve peace if only Israel would
relax their strangehold on Gaza, designed only to punish Palestinians and undermine Hamas, not stop rockets. This is what this is about ,
showing Palestinians that if you vote the wrong way we'll make your life a living hell.

Shane on those repeatedly, and I mean 10 15 20 times rehashing "facts" that have been discredited by reference to mainstream sources.
bringing up arguments which have Bren discredited 100 times and denying any wrongdoing in Gaza with the most intellectually puerile
methods. Ie simply denying all despite almost all of the worlds media, including right wing pro Israeli conservative papers, reporting the
same thing. There is no blockade, Hamas hides food. There is mo malnutrition. Hamas fires rockets for no reason whatsoever. The UN
are liars. Any deaths of civilians is due to Hamas. Any IDF attacks on civilians are honest mistakes AND AND at the same time Hamas
were firing nearby. Israel was promised land by holy books. didn't break the ceasefire. Israel is restrained. Israel wants peace.

When you spell out what certain people are just wheeling out time and time again you'll see that it would make the Israeli Foreign Minister
blush to say it. When they do it with as little grace and intellectually sound argument as is humanly possible its ten times as bad. Shame
on all of you jusifyinh the unjustifiable. Today's Guardian headline says it all.

youcrazyjesus!

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

just like your sources yeah

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/reuters-in-the-service-of-hamas/

Not sure what that is, but if youre telling youre taking your news from a
Random blog then youre in trouble.

Decided to read it, gave me a laugh. If there was a prize for taking the most minor
misunderstanding of a photo and overstating its I
portance, that guy would win.

The fact an editor slightly misinterpreted a photo sent to him by Gaza photographers
means sweet **** all. What's your point exactly?

What was the F16 doing anyway if not droping bombs? Delivering aid?

Ridiculous post.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

just like your sources yeah

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/reuters-in-the-service-of-hamas/

Random right wing blogs are hardly great sources...

munchester29

marius wrote: »

This has been discussed ad-nauseum, you can keep on bring it up if you want but all it really shows is your inability to consider opinions that do not match your own.

Isreal went into Gaza bombed the crap out of it, bulldozed several hundred buildings, built a huge wall around it, pulled out its troops but maintained a blockade that has led to misery for 1.5 million people living there.......and you consider this a 'step in the right direction'....

And all the poor Palestinians ever did was grow roses in their gardens...

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

And all the poor Palestinians ever did was grow roses in their gardens...

What on earth are you on about now?

concussion

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

It shows somebody fired rockets. Hamas isnot the only militant group in Gaza. Hamas jailed some of those
launching rockets during the summer. Source: New York Times

Thanks. Hamas are in charge in Gaza - they're responsible for what happens there, as evidenced by them jailing the perpetrators. But they should be able to keep control - do you think Hamas would care if rogue element of the IDF started firing at Gaza? Would they accept from the IDF that the soldiers were acting without orders? I doubt it, they'd say Israel broke the agreement and send a load of rockets over the border. The ceasefire was dependant on Hamas keeping the peace, they obviously can't do this.

wes wrote: »

One of the reason Hamas is popular is that they do take care of people.

Taking care of the people by smuggling lots of food instead of weapons into the country?

wes wrote: »

One of the reason there so popular is that they are one of the few people on the ground taking care of the average person. They are as much a charity as they are terrorists.

The fault is Israel's they are the ones doing the blockading not Hamas. There are not enough supplies to go round period. This is due to the blockade.

That's just unbelievable!! Did you not read the Amnesty International report or any of the news articles I posted?

Amnesty International is greatly concerned about the conduct of the PA security forces and Fatah-controlled armed groups and that of Hamas-controlled forces and armed groups, in particular at:
- reckless use of force by all parties in the armed clashes, which resulted in the killing and wounding of unarmed bystanders, including children;
- deliberate killings of political opponents and of hostages, and of armed men who had been captured or incapacitated;

- the use by all parties to the armed clashes of hospitals, schools and civilian residential buildings from which to carry out attacks against their opponents, including attacks carried out against and within such buildings, including hospitals;

[So Hamas don't use schools etc as firing points??!!]

- abductions, hostage-taking and arbitrary detention;
- torture and other ill-treatment of detainees and hostages;
- denial of detainees’ access to legal counsel;
- use of excessive, unnecessary and even deadly force against peaceful demonstrators;
- systematic impunity for members of the security forces and armed groups responsible for these grave human rights abuses in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In the Gaza Strip Amnesty International is concerned at:
- political killings and the re-emergence of a situation of lawlessness;
- the targeting of Fatah supporters and other political opponents by the Executive Force and the Qassam Brigades in a politically-motivated campaign of arbitrary detentions and abductions;
- torture and other ill-treatment of detainees and hostages;
- arbitrary detention of detainees in locations not authorized by law for this purpose, where detainees are at risk;
- the establishment by the Hamas de-facto administration of agencies and mechanisms to enforce the law and administer justice, but which lack the requisite independence, skills and accountability to discharge this role and to ensure that the rule of law is respected for both victims and accused, that human-rights abuses are not committed, that victims have access to effective mechanisms to obtain redress, and that those accused of crimes are afforded due process;
- the impunity enjoyed by perpetrators of crimes and the lack of political will on the part of the Hamas de-facto administration to hold such perpetrators to account and to respect fundamental human rights, including the rights to freedom of expression, assembly and association.

The rest can be seen here. Some charity :rolleyes:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/020/2007/en/dom-MDE210202007en.html

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708618493&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

youcrazyjesus!

wes wrote: »

Random right wing blogs are hardly great sources...

I think the point he was trying to make is that Reuters and the worlds media, heretofore
pro-Israeli corporate media, are now untrustworthy. Why? Because something bright and
moving eminating from air borne military appliances known, by Israels own words, to be
bombarding the Gaza Strip, was identified as a missile when it was in fact a flare.

That gave me a chuckle, honestly, the lengths some people go to.

youcrazyjesus!

So you agree, Hamas at least tried to put stop to rocket attacks. Good.

They won't be able to anymore though, that's for sure,but I supose it will
give Israel the cover to do what it wants to do anyway. There's an upside.

Eh, he was talking about humanitarian conditions and you posted up
somethingon a completely different subject. Stick to the debate.

concussion wrote: »

Thanks. Hamas are in charge in Gaza - they're responsible for what happens there, as evidenced by them jailing the perpetrators. But they should be able to keep control - do you think Hamas would care if rogue element of the IDF started firing at Gaza? Would they accept from the IDF that the soldiers were acting without orders? I doubt it, they'd say Israel broke the agreement and send a load of rockets over the border. The ceasefire was dependant on Hamas keeping the peace, they obviously can't do this.



Taking care of the people by smuggling lots of food instead of weapons into the country?



That's just unbelievable!! Did you not read the Amnesty International report or any of the news articles I posted?






The rest can be seen here. Some charity :rolleyes:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE21/020/2007/en/dom-MDE210202007en.html

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708618493&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

CNN and The Guardian both reported that Israel broke the ceasefire. Besides that it was possible to retrieve peace if only Israel would
relax their strangehold on Gaza, designed only to punish Palestinians and undermine Hamas, not stop rockets. This is what this is about ,
showing Palestinians that if you vote the wrong way we'll make your life a living hell.

Shane on those repeatedly, and I mean 10 15 20 times rehashing "facts" that have been discredited by reference to mainstream sources.
bringing up arguments which have Bren discredited 100 times and denying any wrongdoing in Gaza with the most intellectually puerile
methods. Ie simply denying all despite almost all of the worlds media, including right wing pro Israeli conservative papers, reporting the
same thing. There is no blockade, Hamas hides food. There is mo malnutrition. Hamas fires rockets for no reason whatsoever. The UN
are liars. Any deaths of civilians is due to Hamas. Any IDF attacks on civilians are honest mistakes AND AND at the same time Hamas
were firing nearby. Israel was promised land by holy books. didn't break the ceasefire. Israel is restrained. Israel wants peace.

When you spell out what certain people are just wheeling out time and time again you'll see that it would make the Israeli Foreign Minister
blush to say it. When they do it with as little grace and intellectually sound argument as is humanly possible its ten times as bad. Shame
on all of you jusifyinh the unjustifiable. Today's Guardian headline says it all.

There is plenty of proof for what you deem as “rehashing discredited facts”. It’s kind of funny how sources are dismissed as propaganda when it doesn’t suit your needs.

Do you claim Hamas didn’t fire rockets into Israel all through the so called “ceasefire”, which was practically one sided?
Didn’t they send suicide bombers against Israel, which they can’t do anymore because of the wall?
Didn’t they smuggle weapons and explosives (never food by the way) through their tunnels?
Didn’t they confiscate supplies sent to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza?
Didn’t they fire rockets & mortars out of schools, mosques and UN installations?
Didn’t they execute 40 Fatah members last week?
Didn’t they refuse the ceasefire suggested by Egypt/France/UN?
Didn’t they announce many times of their one and only goal – to cleanse Israel of Jews?


I’ll ask you a simple question:

What did the Palestinian people or Hamas ever do to achieve peace?

Nothing.

wes

concussion wrote: »

The rest can be seen here. Some charity :rolleyes:

I also said they were terrorists. Nice of you to ignore that part. You need to take into account every thing I have said.

There is a reason they are popular, in that they do take care of people.

This doesn't mean that they don't crush dissent, this is also well known and I never denied it.

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

What on earth are you on about now?

very simple - The Palestinian people are now paying for the Hamas continued aggression towards Israel.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

very simple - The Palestinian people are now paying for the Hamas continued aggression towards Israel.

so, by your own definition, its collective punishment.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

What did the Palestinian people or Hamas ever do to achieve peace?

Nothing.

Israel attempts at peace, tend to involve stealing land. Which seeing as this is a land conflict, tends to make things worse.

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

so, by your own definition, its collective punishment.

No, it's war.