1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

AnimalRights

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Possibly but would Hamas? I sincerely doubt it. Things have been beyond mere talking and diplomacy for decades. What is happening is just a continuation of a very vicious circle.

If the Palestinians had their own state, jobs and a decent standard of living and no attacks/incursions from Israel it would be harder for people to flock to Hamas or give any support.
Any Guerilla movement needs the support of the people.

Although I do admit any of the above seems very far away.

Serenity Now!

AnimalRights wrote: »

If the Palestinians had their own state, jobs and a decent standard of living and no attacks/incursions from Israel it would be harder for people to flock to Hamas or give any support.
Any Guerilla movement needs the support of the people

It has been well beyond this for many years. Even as a supporter of a fair two-state solution, I don't see anything but carnage regardless of statehood or no statehood.

mike65

Hamas don't want peace they want the destruction if Israel. If they wanted peace you'd know by now.

oscarBravo

Moderator note: I accept that this is a topic that causes heated debate, but it's possible for a debate to be heated and civil at the same time. Before you reply to a post, think about what you're about to submit and ask yourself what it contributes to the discussion.

And if anyone's not prepared to moderate themselves, I'm more than happy to do it for them.

Suff

jank wrote: »

Just a question though. How do you think this will play in the Arab world? You think it will go down well?

When one speaks of the Arab world, one has to remember that most of the Arab goverments doesn't represent the people. The likes of Egypt, for example..they wouldn't open the borders to deliver supplies to the palestinians,...now they did but only to assist with the casualties... wish they did this when those people were alive!

The Arab street view is grim and angry and with full honestly can't see a space for peace with Israel.

AnimalRights

mike65 wrote: »

Hamas don't want peace they want the destruction if Israel. If they wanted peace you'd know by now.

Obviously you have being selective with your Hamas statements, there have been other statements from them which have offered a lot more.

Serenity Now!

AnimalRights wrote: »

Obviously you have being selective with your Hamas statements, there have been other statements from them which have offered a lot more.

They didn't exactly stop firing though, did they? As far as a retreat to pre-1967 borders goes, they know Israel will never do that. In Israel's eyes, Nasser should not have mobilised four nations to set up an attack on them and what followed was basically the spoils of victory. Could have been a lot worse had the region not been a cold war front.

AnimalRights

Serenity Now! wrote: »

They didn't exactly stop firing though, did they?

Same could be said of Israel.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

As far as a retreat to pre-1967 borders goes, they know Israel will never do that. In Israel's eyes, Nasser should not have mobilised four nations to set up an attack on them and what followed was basically the spoils of victory. Could have been a lot worse had the region not been a cold war front.

Yep pretty much agree with you there although obviously it's not right.

epictetus2009

Suff wrote: »

When one speaks of the Arab world, one has to remember that most of the Arab goverments doesn't represent the people. The likes of Egypt, for example..they wouldn't open the borders to deliver supplies to the palestinians,...now they did but only to assist with the casualties... wish they did this when those people were alive!

The Arab street view is grim and angry and with full honestly can't see a space for peace with Israel.

trade routes apartently exist [ref:irish times yesterday] between egypt and palentine using hundreds of tunnells which israel carpet bombed in tandem with the shock and awe precision military installation bombings. Hamas said every single installation was put out of commission.

Would we prefer in the west the creeping body count. So in lieu of 300 dead in one go most of which were military hamas and affiliated personel would we preper a few every day for a few months. That not newsworthy is it..would we actually care.

Any listening to newstalk this morning... the israeli rep made convincing argument in term of critically analysing events as conceded by one of two of the pro palis 'heavy hitters' in studio. They all came across weak in logical argument.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

epictetus2009

Some of the poster here are well loose in 'fact'.

'I think there has been one suicide bombing in 2-3 years' = some statement..to really muddy the waters.

Suff

epictetus2009 wrote: »

trade routes apartently exist [ref:irish times yesterday] between egypt and palentine using hundreds of tunnells
which israel carpet bombed in tandem with the shock and awe precision military installation bombings. Hamas said every single installation was put out of commission.

Makes one think, why they had to digg the tunnels in the first place!
and yes, I know..they used it to smuggle arms and weapons to fight Israel.....remember, Israel get's it (ofcourse a much heavier and more deadlier stuff) legally and publiclly from the states...to be used on who??

lmtduffy

Gareth37 wrote: »

WHO KILLED JESUS?

Was it the Jews or the Roman Empire?

The guns are firmly pointed at Jesus Christ.

In the Christian festival of the birth of Jesus, 2 days after Christmas day the Jews strike Jesus' people.

WELCOME TO WORLD WAR 3 AND THE END OF TIMES

War after war and the antichrist will win them all and declare to be the saviour. Christians will be persecuted and a great trial will be in place where all Christians will be trialed. After 7 years of great persecution for Christians Jesus will come in all His glory through the clouds to end it all. Before the 2nd coming of Jesus great natural distasters will occur, evem in great European cities.

Don't be tricked. Don't be brainwashed. Pray the rosary each night and read the Bible.

Pray Pray Pray!! Penance Penance Penance!! Fasting. Fasting. Fasting!!!

The antichrist is among us and his name begins with B.

Narnia FTW!!


but seriously the amount of people who wont even consider the idea of a two sate solution is frightening,
I believe Israel in large is only doing what it sees as necessary they've been doing it for along time and have probably found general and disproportionate attacks to be the most effective way to help cripple hamas's morale, capability and eventually if they bomb then enough possibly their support.

The whole jihad consignment that exists among the Palestinian movement is unfortunate and I dont think any one outside of the darkest parts of the world agrees with it.

but because it is there it allows Israel to justify alot of its actions, for itself and its people and to an extent for outsiders looking in.

Hamas in government at present is not a good thing really, their actions out of government and in government have been inflammatory, but maybe they'll grow up, hell even arafat had moments of clarity, but they have to keep street cred with the enraged families who've been victims of Israel and then the jihaders with the guns that turn up wearing hamas hats.

I believe Israel comes off cleaner because it is more state, its army is unified and accountable to the Israeli state not exactly to the rest of the world mind. And in Palestine it is likely any step in the right direction will be distributed by those foreign and or crazy jihaders.

the present want from both sides to tear each other apart can be calmed, but the likely hood of splinter groups on the Palestinian side is going to be the main obstacle to this.

Israel essentially has complete control of Palestine, it allows it to exist I think because its easier right now, it pleases most of those interested. War, although and ugly system does have some form of rules, and essentially if you win, you win it all, Israel has won long ago, but has developed the current situation as times have changed.

In olden days working loosely with worlds war concepts of invasion Palestinians should submit and take part when allowed in what is now the Israeli state they live in.

But today we are somewhat more enlightened, we try to respect human rights and rights to autonomy but are not prepared to enforce them so much due to some peoples worry that is we come down hard on them over what their doing we'll get it next time we need to do it. But both side need to do this if either side wishes to benefit from this.

And their are more practical reasons for a consonsociational solution such as geography, the resources of the land and sea, and because if their is a a border dividing them its easier to point to the enemy.

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The West Bank, Gaza, Syria, Malta, Lebanon, Belgium - various places. They're quite good at it. Rather that than the mass slaughter they're doing now.

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I'm forced to point out for the 2nd time that all Palestinian groups agreed to stop suicide attacks with Israel.

Scary wrote:

The US are the only ones who have the bottle to say what most countries really think.

Not at all. Most of the world having been somebodys colony at some stage have empathy with the Palestinians. The Americans for strategic reasons has done the imperial thing and supported Israel.

Manic Moran wrote:

On the other hand, one will note the very slow but definite progress prior to Hamas' election between Fatah which does acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and the fact that Fatah-controlled West Bank is not really involved in the current unpleasantness. Why is that?.

The West Bank....thats where the settlement expansion is ongoing, isn't it....

Boston

AnimalRights wrote: »

war crimes you talk about?
Ariel Sharon was the biggest war criminal around that area after his massacre on Southern Lebanon in the early 80's, but no Hague or wipe out for him, no sir he get's elected as Prime Minister!
Most of the blames in the middle East lay with the US.
Your arguments in this thread are a cross between being pretty poor or hilarious.

How does that negate the war crimes of the Hamas leadership?

epictetus2009

time for a good old conspiracy theory...

where do egypt get their weapons? wonder do they also have the US stamp on them also. But thats off point i suspect.

Another off point ..How many companies use Israel for outsourced support? Wonder would they consider moving - the only way to force israel is too stop supply of arms via Obama and hurt trade. At the moment they can take the lead on a whim be it a peace period or an all out demolition.

AnimalRights

Originally Posted by Boston
Why is it you feel to need to down play the war crimes of hamas while also exaggerating the actions of the Israelis

Boston wrote: »

How does that negate the war crimes of the Hamas leadership?

I was not exaggerating the war crimes of Israel they are fact, you were making out that only Hamas were the bad boys here.
Pro Western people look for the slightest chink in Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Syria to say that it was well deserved, imagine it was the other way round, 221 Israelis killed by modern jet fighter planes from Russia and 1 Palestinian killed by a few improvised home made rockets....outcry/upwar/WW III all spring to mind.

AnimalRights

epictetus2009 wrote: »

time for a good old conspiracy theory...

where do egypt get their weapons? wonder do they also have the US stamp on them also. But thats off point i suspect.

Another off point ..How many companies use Israel for outsourced support? Wonder would they consider moving - the only way to force israel is too stop supply of arms via Obama and hurt trade. At the moment they can take the lead on a whim be it a peace period or an all out demolition.

US supplies massive amounts of money to Egypt and Pakistan and otehr countries that would surprise people.
In fairlyland wouldn't it nice for the US to stop destabilising regions the way they accuse Iran and Syria of doing.

Anyway off out to The Spire now to show my sympathies with the 1pm protest assembly.

Boston

AnimalRights wrote: »

Originally Posted by Boston
Why is it you feel to need to down play the war crimes of hamas while also exaggerating the actions of the Israelis



I was not exaggerating the war crimes of Israel they are fact, you were making out that only Hamas were the bad boys here.
Pro Western people look for the slightest chink in Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Syria to say that it was well deserved, imagine it was the other way round, 221 Israelis killed by modern jet fighter planes from Russia and 1 Palestinian killed by a few improvised home made rockets....outcry/upwar/WW III all spring to mind.

I wasn't replying to you, thus I didn't say you exaggerated anything, the person I quoted stated that Israel nuked the Palestinians, did that happen? No, therefore a complete exaggeration. I live in the west, I'm awfully fond of the place, they wouldn't really allow me freedom in the middle east, in fact they'd cut my head off/Hang me in Iran and Egypt. Again I say to you, where was your outcry and uproar when Hamas started to fire these rockets at Israel? Where were your demands that an international force be sent in the secure Israel's border?

epictetus2009

kinda reminds of a youtube video of a drunk pimp starting on a 2nd dan master outside his karate club. I didnt feel sorry for the pimp when he was knocked clean out with a nice forearm.

Point being we seems to want to make it a fair fight and that Israel carry out proportionate attacks matching palis's attacks. Remove the resource part and you get a better picture of the cycle.

Hamas civilian shields, propaganda and martyrdom v Israel civilian early warning systems? Who is looking after whose people?

Sand

People seem to get hung up on ratios or some sort of bodycount scorecard. So what if the ratio was 1:155? If it was 1:1 would people be happy?

Palestinians will always suffer more casualties because Palestinian propaganda praises and encourages death and sacrifice for "the cause", Hamas [the elected government] runs a terrorist state and has absolutely no regard for their own people [ if anything, they view dead palestinians as good for propaganda purposes] and because the Israelis invest heavily in early warning systems, defences, and medical treatment to protect their population whereas the Palestinians invest in rocket launchers. And because quite simply the Israelis have more firepower.

Are the Palestinians surprised when their attacks on Israel lead to retaliation from the IDF? Is this a new and shocking development? So why do they continue to provoke retaliations?

Why dont they try something completely new and stop the rocket attacks?

Serenity Now!

AnimalRights wrote: »

imagine it was the other way round

Yes, try that.
As I said earlier, this is what nearly happened in 1967 when its neighbours set up to attack the country hence Israel's modus operandi to this day. The rhetoric used by Nasser still rings.
I don't mention this to excuse what is currently happening or the attempted invasion of southern Lebanon in 2006, by the way. Rather to explain.

When discussing the region, people should bear in mind that this is not a mere case of West v East. It is a hell of a lot more than that and in my view, is entirely irreversible.

Dr. Baltar

It saddens me immensly to see this happening in the world in 2008.
The policies of Israel are disgraceful: They do not work. Their mission is to protect their own civilians and as can be seen from the past, the bombardment of Palestine and the occupation of that nation does not stop terrorism but instead it supports it!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

monument

Sand wrote: »

People seem to get hung up on ratios or some sort of bodycount scorecard. So what if the ratio was 1:155? If it was 1:1 would people be happy?

Since when has a larger body count not been seen as a bad thing?

The real number here relating to the latest events is 230 plus to one. These are real deaths, not a ratio. If it was an eye-for-an-eye and one person killed in retaliation, no, I wouldn't be happy, but I would be happier that 200 plus people were not killed... what about you?

epictetus2009

im no expert first off but taking your point baralot about israels position

israel left the occupied area in 05?

so the israeli rep said today on newstalk and the actual pali rep's [not FF ones...]response was not that israel didnt leave but that they make daily incursions in there which means they jog in for a while shoot someone and jog on again.

there is a terrifying newsreel of a cameraman [liveleak] in that area with camera on tripod taking photos of israel tank. tank drops a shell right on his head and kills a few people around. So that area in a tinderbox and should be a no mans land for palis/reporters anyone until they have exchange student programs and israel give aid to palis...many moons off and probably sounds flippant.

israeli rep also stated that we are lucky to live in such ''a beautiful peaceful country''. When you hear a house alarm go off it annoys you, in israel when you hear an alarm you think it could be you or your family getting hit. In pali there is no alarm just perpetual fear that hamas ignite the loose tinder that israel drops in the DMZ from time to time.

Serenity Now!

Sir Baralot wrote: »

It saddens me immensly to see this happening in the world in 2008.
The policies of Israel are disgraceful: They do not work. Their mission is to protect their own civilians and as can be seen from the past, the bombardment of Palestine and the occupation of that nation does not stop terrorism but instead it supports it!

Step back and see what contributes to this situation.

On one hand, there is a coalition government made up of centrist parties with also left-wing and right-wing parties part of the mix (though fewer right-wings now due their settlements policy). This govt is up against a right-wing party led by Netanyahu. Elections are up next february and polls show the govt sliding slightly in popularity with its electorate. This is due to many reasons such as its majority secularism, being in cahoots with Abbas and Fatah, political scandal, release of political prisoners, opening of border access points, removal of settlements in West Bank and worrying signals (in the eyes of the religious right/hardcore Zionist) that Jerusalem could be brought to the table.

Now, what do the Israeli govt need to show they are 1) tough on Hamas and 2) will protect its people? They need an excuse to exhibit a form of this.
Where is that excuse?
Gaza obviously.
Lebanon, a severely weakened Lebanon at that, has been on the brink of another civil war but is still too difficult to deal with for military, diplomatic and political reasons.
In Gaza, the elected populist party in Gaza support violence and will not cede on any issue even recognising the state of Israel even in a two-state region. They know incessant rocket attacks will reap a whirlwind (having been warned as constantly as they fire each qassam across the border).

This is why Kadima & Co has opted for this unecessary action and Hamas' insistance on poking and prodding them has predictably given them the excuse for doing so. To get Tzip Livni into the PM seat. They could have even waited if they wanted. Situation wasn't 'code red'. An election decreed the attacks. I'd even wager they were planned months ago.

Yes, Palestinian people are being severely wronged. Incarcerated even. Israel has a flimsy notion that Palestinian people will turf out Hamas when they only provide the single biggest reason for Hamas to bolster its ranks. However they see their borders as a necessary evil because if any ground is made by Hamas, then carnage ensues first in West Bank and then in Israel itself. So, in Israel's eyes, their policies do in fact work.

Neither side will change. One side will not cede an inch. The other side will not cede an inch. They see each other as a threat to their own whether or not the status quo remains or openings are brought about. If you wish to see an example of the viewpoint of some Gaza residents and why I would say none are for the changing, watch the late great James Miller's documentary 'Death in Gaza'. He was killed by Bedouin IDF soldiers while filming what he intended to be the first half of a two-sided story.

The list of people culpable for this latest carnage is obvious but I certainly wouldn't leave Hamas out of it for they have blood on their hands too.
And before somebody says to me 'They have no choice', yes they most certainly do.

Edit: And I will add that "proportionate" doesn't enter the mix. There is no such thing as a "proportional" response.

TOMASJ

What other terrorist in the world can shoot and kill young kids live on tv and still be held up as a bastion of democracy,
and with the support of the worlds biggest power, ignore all others, and just steam roll on doing what they do best,
welcome to Israel,
they have just shot another kid in Nilin, maybe he threw a stone, proportional response was, live bullets for a stone,

Nodin

Boston wrote: »

Again I say to you, where was your outcry and uproar when Hamas started to fire these rockets at Israel? Where were your demands that an international force be sent in the secure Israel's border?

A UN force has been rejected by the US and Israel every time its been mooted,presumably as it would prevent the continued expansion in the rest of the OT.

Sand wrote:

Why dont they try something completely new and stop the rocket attacks??

They did. And the Israelis kept up the blockade and kept on expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

A Dub in Glasgo

A lot of whataboutery from the Israeli apologists