1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

youcrazyjesus!

a war implies some level of parity, this is a terrorist attack on a large scale.

The fact an army is being used doesn't make it a war. Sorry.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

Israel attempts at peace, tend to involve stealing land. Which seeing as this is a land conflict, tends to make things worse.

Even if I agree for argument sake that Israel is stealing land, do you believe that stealing land is an excuse for terror campaigns?

Do you honestly think that when a peace agreement is negotiated, all the land issues will not be on the table, and thus can be addressed during negotiations, and not by rocket attacks?

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

Random right wing blogs are hardly great sources...

Omar & Mohammed Fadhil – Middle East Editors (Baghdad)
Omar and Mohammed, a pair of Iraqi dentists and two-time winners of Weblog Awards, blogged from Baghdad, Basra, and other places in Iraq until late 2007. Now based in the US, they continue to write about Iraq, the War on Terror, and Middle East issues. Named two of “The 50 Most Important People on the Web” by PC World Magazine, they are members of the Opinion Journal Federation, and their work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal. Omar is currently a graduate student in International Affairs at Columbia University in New York City.

suited you to ignore the links to reauters
and id hardly call two iraqi dentists right wing
but sure what would they know they only live in the middle east.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Even if I agree for argument sake that Israel is stealing land, do you believe that stealing land is an excuse for terror campaigns?

Do you honestly think that when a peace agreement is negotiated, all the land issues will not be on the table, and thus can be addressed during negotiations, and not by rocket attacks?

I agree. Write to the Israel Ambassador telling him to negotiate with Hamas, report here what he writes back.

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

a war implies some level of parity, this is a terrorist attack on a large scale.

The fact an army is being used doesn't make it a war. Sorry.

"War is the reciprocal and violent application of force between hostile political entities aimed at bringing about a desired political end-state via armed conflict"

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I agree. Write to the Israel Ambassador telling him to negotiate with Hamas, report here what he writes back.

Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't wasnt to negotiate. Negotiation has alreday been offered by Egypt.

ionix5891

munchester29 wrote: »

No, it's war.

War implies following the rules of war such as Geneva and UN conventions (and some common sense and compassion)

yesterday we had both UN and Red Cross lashing out on Israel for ignoring their responsibilities as occupier and violating multiple conventions (yet again)

This is not war this is slaughter, the 2 sides are so unevenly mismatched its not funny

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Even if I agree for argument sake that Israel is stealing land, do you believe that stealing land is an excuse for terror campaigns?

No of course not.

However, colonization is not a peaceful process and lets not pretend it is.

munchester29 wrote: »

Do you honestly think that when a peace agreement is negotiated, all the land issues will not be on the table, and thus can be addressed during negotiations, and not by rocket attacks?

Stealing more land during negotiations is pretty strong intent that Israel is not all that serious.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Omar & Mohammed Fadhil – Middle East Editors (Baghdad)
Omar and Mohammed, a pair of Iraqi dentists and two-time winners of Weblog Awards, blogged from Baghdad, Basra, and other places in Iraq until late 2007. Now based in the US, they continue to write about Iraq, the War on Terror, and Middle East issues. Named two of “The 50 Most Important People on the Web” by PC World Magazine, they are members of the Opinion Journal Federation, and their work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal. Omar is currently a graduate student in International Affairs at Columbia University in New York City.

suited you to ignore the links to reauters
and id hardly call two iraqi dentists right wing
but sure what would they know they only live in the middle east.

The blog you posted is a well known right wing blog. So I was right in that. Also, since when have dentists been journalists? Still look like I was wrong about them (the Middle East). More than willing to concede that. Still, a blog is not a news source, no matter how good they are. They deal in opinions more than anything else.

Also, you used reuters as a source in the other thread. So they seem to just fine when you deem them to be.

munchester29

ionix5891 wrote: »

War implies following the rules of war Geneva and UN conventions

yesterday we had both UN and Red Cross lashing out on Israel for ignoring their responsibilities as occupier and violating multiple conventions (yet again)

This is not war this is slaughter, the 2 sides are so unevenly mismatched its not funny

Well, it’s not as if Hamas are following the Geneva and UN conventions.
If one party ignores the rules, I think the other party is entitled to it also, so the way I see it, both parties ignore the UN/Geneva rules. Can’t really put the blame on only one of them.

The sides being unevenly matched has nothing to do with it. Evenly matched forces are not a precondition to war.

Israel was attacked by much stronger and larger forces in 1948.
The same goes for the wars between Chechnya and Russia, UK & Argentina, China & Vietnam, etc

concussion

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

What was the F16 doing anyway if not droping bombs?

Could have been dropping leaflets. Was probably dropping bombs.

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

So you agree, Hamas at least tried to put stop to rocket attacks. Good.

I can't find the article you are referring to, so I have to ask two things -

Did Hamas deny firing all those rockets before the November incursion
and
Why were Hamas fighters digging a tunnel under the Israeli border?

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Eh, he was talking about humanitarian conditions and you posted up
somethingon a completely different subject. Stick to the debate.

Of course it's relevant, we're talking about the same party here and what the do for the ordinary people in Gaza.

Wes, I know you said they're terrorists, but don't try to make out they're some sort of Robin Hood figures by saying they're as much a charity as a terrorist organisation.

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

just like your sources yeah

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/reuters-in-the-service-of-hamas/

Please explain why an opinion in a blog qualifies as a news source.

Why isn't a headline along the lines of 'Reuters-Hamas link' to be seen on the BBC or CNN?

Munchester29 wrote:

What did the Palestinian people or Hamas ever do to achieve peace?

It's Israel thats occupying them, not the other way around. Its Israel thats aggressively outside its borders, to its West and now once more to its East.

Munchester29 wrote:

do you believe that stealing land is an excuse for terror campaigns?

I believe the general majority opinion of - for example Oliver Cromwell - on this Island is sufficient answer for the most of us.

The Saint

munchester29 wrote: »

Israel was attacked by much stronger and larger forces in 1948.

I'm not so sure that this is completely true.

SHLOMO BEN-AMI:
In 1948, what was born was a state, but also original superpower in many ways. We have prevailed over the invading Arab armies and the local population, which was practically evicted from Palestine, from the state of Israel, from what became the state of Israel, and this is how the refugee problem was born. Interestingly, the Arabs in 1948 lost a war that was, as far as they were concerned, lost already in 1936-1939, because they have fought against the British mandate and the Israeli or the Jewish Yishuv, the Jewish pre-state, and they were defeated then, so they came to the hour of trial in 1948 already as a defeated nation. That is, the War of 1948 was won already in 1936, and they had no chance to win the war in 1948. They were already a defeated nation when they faced the Israeli superpower that was emerging in that year.

wes

@Munchester29

Do you think there is any justification for colonialism? As this is exactly what Israel has been doing since before 1948.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

There is plenty of proof for what you deem as “rehashing discredited facts”. It’s kind of funny how sources are dismissed as propaganda when it doesn’t suit your needs.

No is is you who is doing that and it is plain for all to see, you insisting that CAMERA was an inbiased source is the proof of this. I regard them as relatively unbiased and have linked to the likes of The Guardian, the New York Times, The Independent. You link to CAMERA and MEMRIT or whatever and insist, even when you find out otherwise post-googling, that they are unbiased. It's laughable.

Do you claim Hamas didn’t fire rockets into Israel all through the so called “ceasefire”, which was practically one sided?

Israel violated the ceasefire, had no intention of honouring it, Hamas had every intention of honouring it and improving the lives of people in Gaza. It would have brought them alot of kudos with Gaza residents if they had been successful, therefore it had to be stopped. Israel carried out assassinations in this time too, was this not a violation? The Guardian and CNN boths say Israel broke the ceasefire.

See below for a New York Times report.

Hamas officials say it was their understanding at the time that two weeks after the June 19 accord took effect Israel would open the crossings and allow the transfer of goods that had been banned or restricted after June 2007, when Hamas waged a violent takeover of Gaza.
Their job, the Hamas officials said, was to stop the rocket attacks on Israel not only from its own armed groups, but also from others based in Gaza, including Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.
It took some days, but they were largely successful. Hamas imposed its will and even imprisoned some of those who were firing rockets. Israeli and United Nations figures show that while more than 300 rockets were fired into Israel in May, 10 to 20 were fired in July, depending on who was counting and whether mortar rounds were included. In August, 10 to 30 were fired, and in September, 5 to 10.

Didn’t they send suicide bombers against Israel, which they can’t do anymore because of the wall?

Do you know anything about the situation or just run to Google anytime you need something to back up your opinion that Israel is always right?

Because the last time I checked, the wall was built across the West Bank. West Bank != Gaza. Here's a map.

Didn’t they smuggle weapons and explosives (never food by the way) through their tunnels?

Hamas don't own all of the tunnels. Read up on the subject. A BBC report says:

"A UN report said the tunnels had become a lifeline for Gaza's Palestinians because of the Israeli blockade. Thousands work in the tunnels.
The tunnels are used to smuggle a wide variety of products into Gaza - including food and fuel."

Many tunnels are privately owned by local entrepreneurs (I hear Bill Cullen gives them a dig out from time to time, ho ho) and not Hamas. They are used to "smuggle" in such nefarious items as livestock. Although maybe they plan launching a cow Brasseye style? Hmmm....maybe that's it.

Didn’t they confiscate supplies sent to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza?

Source please. They perhaps wanted to distribute it themselves, not the way it should be done imo, but I understand their reasoning even if I don't agree with it.

Didn’t they fire rockets & mortars out of schools, mosques and UN installations?

This is the 5th or 6th time I've asked for sources for this. I'm sure it's likely, I've just yet to see anybody bothering their arse to provide sources. Gaza is very highly density, any open patch of ground is likely to be near something like a school or a mosque, given 50% of the population of Gaza are children. Unfortunately Israel's invasion kills people randomly anyway. It wouldn't matter whether it's true or not.

Didn’t they execute 40 Fatah members last week?

Yes I'm sure they did. It's an unfortunate result of a power struggle. If the result of the election had been respected by everyone it would never, ever have happened.

Didn’t they refuse the ceasefire suggested by Egypt/France/UN?

They refused an Egyptian one alright because it was as one sided as having Hamas stop rockets while Israel's continues it's direct occupation. The conditions of a ceasefire are clear, and I believe fair, from the Palestinians point of view. Israel withdraws, stops assassinations, opens border crossing = no more rockets, from Hamas at least. Hamas should be given some time to restore their control of Gaza though, seeing as the civilian government infrastructure has been destroyed. Hamas are not the only militant group in Gaza, and I'd imagine feelings are running a little bit high after 700 murders.

Can you imagine the reaction in Israel or Britain to 700 terrorist murders? There'd be full scale war. Tens of thousands would die in retaliation.

Didn’t they announce many times of their one and only goal – to cleanse Israel of Jews?

They also announced they're willing to talk and to change the climate that fosters the conflict. All Israel has to do, according to Hamas, is respect international law and return to it's 1967 borders. It's a fair solution imo.

What did the Palestinian people or Hamas ever do to achieve peace?

Offer to negotiate with Israel on any subject, have instigated for and pressed for negotiations on loosening the blockade on Gaza with a view to building on that, moving to full peace negotiations. They've jailed rocket launchers, unilaterally ended suicide bombings and made attempts to contact European leaders in order to begin negotiations on a full peace settlement.

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

It's Israel thats occupying them, not the other way around. Its Israel thats aggressively outside its borders, to its West and now once more to its East.

Just wanted to highlight...
Seems there is always an excuse for Palestinian violence.

Nodin wrote: »

I believe the general majority opinion of - for example Oliver Cromwell - on this Island is sufficient answer for the most of us.

Oliver Cromwell? Are you serious?

munchester29

The Saint wrote: »

I'm not so sure that this is completely true.

You know that Shlomo Ben Ami is not a reliable source...:D

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Just wanted to highlight...
Seems there is always an excuse for Palestinian violence.

There is always an excuse for Israeli violence too. We have seen many of them in this thread.

munchester29 wrote: »

Oliver Cromwell? Are you serious?

The plantations are similar to what Israel are doing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. So its a valid example.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't wasnt to negotiate. Negotiation has alreday been offered by Egypt.

Could you please, even every so often, use a source for something so we can see just what exactly you're talking about, particularly in an ever-changing fluid situation like this. People go to a lot of trouble to use sources perhaps you could reciprocate using sources from respectable news sources. And not CAMERA or some blog.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

@Munchester29

Do you think there is any justification for colonialism? As this is exactly what Israel has been doing since before 1948.

No, I don't agree with colonialism.

I just don't agree that Israel practices colonialism.

I think that most Israelis want nothing more than to disengage themselves from the Palestinians and the occupied territories, and groups like Hamas, for their own agenda are actually against it happening.

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

The blog you posted is a well known right wing blog. So I was right in that. Also, since when have dentists been journalists? Still look like I was wrong about them (the Middle East). More than willing to concede that. Still, a blog is not a news source, no matter how good they are. They deal in opinions more than anything else.

Also, you used reuters as a source in the other thread. So they seem to just fine when you deem them to be.

just used them so people cant say its right wing zionism at work

munchester29

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Could you please, even every so often, use a source for something so we can see just what exactly you're talking about, particularly in an ever-changing fluid situation like this. People go to a lot of trouble to use sources perhaps you could reciprocate using sources from respectable news sources. And not CAMERA or some blog.

here you go, I have more if you want

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/08/world/main4707219.shtml

youcrazyjesus!

I can't find the article you are referring to, so I have to ask two things -

Did Hamas deny firing all those rockets before the November incursion
and

Hamas officials say it was their understanding at the time that two weeks after the June 19 accord took effect Israel would open the crossings and allow the transfer of goods that had been banned or restricted after June 2007, when Hamas waged a violent takeover of Gaza.
Their job, the Hamas officials said, was to stop the rocket attacks on Israel not only from its own armed groups, but also from others based in Gaza, including Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.
It took some days, but they were largely successful. Hamas imposed its will and even imprisoned some of those who were firing rockets. Israeli and United Nations figures show that while more than 300 rockets were fired into Israel in May, 10 to 20 were fired in July, depending on who was counting and whether mortar rounds were included. In August, 10 to 30 were fired, and in September, 5 to 10.

Why were Hamas fighters digging a tunnel under the Israeli border?

You need to be learn how to distinguish between what is claimed and what can be proved as fact. The IDF stated they building a tunnel, it's not known if it's true. As The Guardian article pointed out. It was linked before many times.

Of course it's relevant, we're talking about the same party here and what the do for the ordinary people in Gaza.

How they scrap with a force launching a coup against them is irrelevant to how they deal with the people of Gaza. They're a government, elected, get over it.

Wes, I know you said they're terrorists, but don't try to make out they're some sort of Robin Hood figures by saying they're as much a charity as a terrorist organisation.

It's an indisputable fact that they began their lives as a social and charitable organisation for ordinary Palestinians. This is simply a fact. They have carried this through to today. Please educate yourself matters before commenting in future, for your own sake, it only makes you less creditable and possibly quite foolish.

" According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities"

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

No, I don't agree with colonialism.

I just don't agree that Israel practices colonialism.

I think that most Israelis want nothing more than to disengage themselves from the Palestinians and the occupied territories, and groups like Hamas, for their own agenda are actually against it happening.

How on earth to they want to "disengage" themselves if they are building settlements on West Bank land as we speak?

More absolute bollox.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

I just don't agree that Israel practices colonialism.

What would you call whats happening in the West Bank and East Jerusalem?

Last I checked putting civilians on land from a conquered terroritory is colonialsim. Seems pretty clear cut to me what Israel is doing.

munchester29 wrote: »

I think that most Israelis want nothing more than to disengage themselves from the Palestinians and the occupied territories, and groups like Hamas, for their own agenda are actually against it happening.

They have a funny way of showing it. They keep on building/expanding there colonies. Seems to me there actions speak far louder than there words. Israel agenda is to take land. They are taking it again and again and again. To deny this is ridiculous at this point.

Seem like Israel agenda is getting land and not peace.

IRISH RAIL

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Hamas don't own the tunnels. Read up on the subject. A BBC report says:

"A UN report said the tunnels had become a lifeline for Gaza's Palestinians because of the Israeli blockade. Thousands work in the tunnels.
The tunnels are used to smuggle a wide variety of products into Gaza - including food and fuel."

Many tunnels are privately owned by local entrepreneurs (I hear Bill Cullen gives them a dig out from time to time, ho ho) and not Hamas. They are used to "smuggle" in such nefarious items as livestock. Although maybe they plan launching a cow Brasseye style? Hmmm....maybe that's it.



Source please. They perhaps wanted to distribute it themselves, not the way it should be done imo, but I understand their reasoning even if I don't agree with it.

.

ive put up sources on how hamas rule the tunnels and the small number of independant ones they charge a gratuity (if that is the correct word )

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

just used them so people cant say its right wing zionism at work

but there not a valid source according to you, there Palestinian propogandists.

Strange how they posted that story then.

Maybe they aren't a propoganda machine for the Palestinians.

IRISH RAIL

Just as a side note would anyone have any problems distinguishing between hamas run gaza and fatah run west bank ? (by that I dont mean listing the differences but rather not use the w bank as a reference in arguments)

it seems theres a lot of twinning going on there both being run differently and during the debate about gaza and the military operation going on in gaza it doesnt really have anything to do with the current debate.

youcrazyjesus!

munchester29 wrote: »

here you go, I have more if you want

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/08/world/main4707219.shtml

Israel and Hamas Rebuff UN Cease-Fire Call

"Israel rejects" beats "Hamas rejects" by 3 to 1 on Google News. A fair account of the situation. Hamas need to be consulted, I would have thought that would be first on anyone's list. They shouldn't have rejected it though I agree.

youcrazyjesus!

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Just as a side note would anyone have any problems distinguishing between hamas run gaza and fatah run west bank ? (by that I dont mean listing the differences but rather not use the w bank as a reference in arguments)

Where the West Bank needs to be referenced it will be. It's a bigger part of the conflict as a whole than Gaza, literally and politically. Much bigger.

See the exchange above about disengagement. It's perfectly valid to reference the West Bank, particularly the issue of settlements.