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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians
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munchester29 wrote: »My point is still valid - no new settlements have been built in recent years.
I editied my post with proof. You are simply wrong. You have no facts to back up your ridiculous assertion.0 -
youcrazyjesus! wrote: »You need to be learn how to distinguish between what is claimed and what can be proved as fact. The IDF stated they building a tunnel, it's not known if it's true. As The Guardian article pointed out. It was linked before many times.
Neither the Guardian article, nor any other I've found carries any statment from Hamas bar 'the Israelis broke the ceasefire'. The most obvious thing to me from their statements is that Hamas don't deny that their fighters were building a tunnel, as alleged by Israel.
To be perfectly honest, if it could be shown to me that Israel acted out of hand in this incident I would probably agree that they broke the ceasefire. But if Hamas were building a tunnel under the border, I would see that as a violation of the truce.youcrazyjesus! wrote: »How they scrap with a force launching a coup against them is irrelevant to how they deal with the people of Gaza.
See the last part of my post --youcrazyjesus! wrote: »They're a government, elected, get over it.
Yes, they are elected, but bear in mind they only beat Fatah by 3% in the elections, it was a close thing. They are not universally loved over there.youcrazyjesus! wrote: »It's an indisputable fact that they began their lives as a social and charitable organisation for ordinary Palestinians. This is simply a fact. They have carried this through to today. Please educate yourself matters before commenting in future, for your own sake, it only makes you less creditable and possibly quite foolish.
First off, thanks for the info. I learned something new. I see they have done a lot of construction and civil aid.
However, this good work is tempered quite heavily by the fact they are only out to help those who support them (which in the polls was only 44.5%.) If they were truly a democratic, charitable organisation they would help everyone but their brutality toward Fatah and its supporters shows this is untrue. Another example of their behaviour is seen in their schooling - if children want to attend their schools, their parents must take an oath of allegience to Hamas.
This also raised one of my previous points - bomb shelters. It was quite strongly put to me the other day that they barely have sewage systems and couldn't afford to build shelters. However if they can build schools, mosques and hospitals, why cant they take basic precautions to protect their civilians by providing them with shelters?0 -
munchester29 wrote: »As for the collective punishment - I consider Hamas are to blame.
Complete and absolute rubbish. Israel is to blame. They are engaged in state terrorism and blaming Hamas is not an excuse. Israel are the one engaged in the collective punishment on the Palestinians and are responsible for there actions.
Hamas are responsible for there actions.0 -
They have expanded and built new ones.
You need to start providing evidence of Israel not expanding or building new colonies. You instead insist that they are not expanding anything, despite the evidence showing that they are planning new colonies all time.
**EDIT**
Since the colonies in Gaza have been removed, 12,000 colonists moved into the West Bank:
Your denials at this point are beyond ridiculous. Israel has constantly expanded colonies. Continutally insisting that you are right, when the fact show otherwise will not magically make you right.
Avi Shleim again?
Most of the settlers that were moved from Gaza live in Caravans next to various Israeli cities, although I'm sure some moved to existing settlments in the west bank.
My point was still not refuted - no new settlements wer built in recent years.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »Sorry, my point was that they use the tunnels to smuggle weapons and explosives, I wasn't the one suggesting they are used for humanitarian purposes.
As for the collective punishment - I consider Hamas are to blame.
But you said it wasn't collective punishment? So it is collective punishment?0 -
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munchester29 wrote: »No, actually you need to start providing evidence of Israel not expanding or building new colonies.
You make a claim, support it.
I didn’t say they weren’t expanding – I said they didn’t build new settlements.
Plans to build new colonies are just plans, they mean nothing until they are executed.
I provided the evidence. Others have posted the evidence earlies in this thread. It is a well knonwn fact Israel is expanding settlements:From the Guardian.co.uk
The withdrawal was a humiliation for the Israeli Defence Forces. To the world, Sharon presented the withdrawal from Gaza as a contribution to peace based on a two-state solution. But in the year after, another 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank, further reducing the scope for an independent Palestinian state. Land-grabbing and peace-making are simply incompatible. Israel had a choice and it chose land over peace.
You clearly missed my edit, so there it is again.
You statement is simple factually incorrect. Israels colonial expansion is very well known.0 -
Complete and absolute rubbish. Israel is to blame. They are engaged in state terrorism and blaming Hamas is not an excuse. Israel are the one engaged in the collective punishment on the Palestinians and are responsible for there actions.
Hamas are responsible for there actions.
Israel is engaged in a war with Hamas. At worst they don't care about the Palestinian civilians, although that is not the case.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »Avi Shleim again?
Most of the settlers that were moved from Gaza live in Caravans next to various Israeli cities, although I'm sure some moved to existing settlments in the west bank.
My point was still not refuted - no new settlements wer built in recent years.
It was refuted. You have not proven anything or backed it up in anyway. I have.
Colonies have expanded. This is a fact. You deny this fact and the evidence provided and have provided nothing to back up what your saying at this point.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »My point was still not refuted - no new settlements wer built in recent years.
That wasn't the original point The fact is settlement and building activity is going on today. That was my point which you were responding to and you were wrong.0 -
youcrazyjesus! wrote: »But you said it wasn't collective punishment? So it is collective punishment?
Sorry, was in a hurry - Hamas is to blame for what is happening to the Palestinians. That was my meaning.0 -
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munchester29 wrote: »Israel is engaged in a war with Hamas. At worst they don't care about the Palestinian civilians, although that is not the case.
The collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians is a fact. This fact shows Israel does not care. This and the slaughter more than prove this.0 -
I provided the evidence. Others have posted the evidence earlies in this thread. It is a well knonwn fact Israel is expanding settlements:
You clearly missed my edit, so there it is again.
You statement is simple factually incorrect. Israels colonial expansion is very well known.
Exapansion. not building new settlements, which was my point.
Sorry, have to leave now, I'll comment on Israeli settlement expansion tomorrow.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »I don't hide the fact that I am pro Israeli. My posts speak for themselves.
Although it is possible that certain sections of the media are showing biased towards the Palestinians for a reason, it is still very unprofessional and can distort the truth.
Err no, the bias if anything is because of the truth!munchester29 wrote: »The US bias towards Israel actually hurts Israel more than it helps, since everyone loves to hate the US.
Questions about the situation during the recent US election brought answers such as
"I love Israel and will support them"
That was it!
Israel are like the short ar*ed brother of the school bully
if big brother wasnt looking out for them they would have had their ar*e kicked years ago and the UN would have never allowed them away with their behaviour!:eek:
BTW I think the bias of persons like yourself harm Israel every bit as much as the USA's, people would still be anti their actions if they were not backed by the good auld USofA
Expanding into where?munchester29 wrote: »Exapansion. not building new settlements, which was my point.
Sorry, have to leave now, I'll comment on Israeli settlement expansion tomorrow.
Your supporting one of the sides (which is fine, your business)
You are however starting petty arguments about Expansion v's New sites
and shouting people down who are talking out against children dying,
That will not make you or Israel look good, will it?
Question:
Would Irish people have backed England bombing Dublin/Cork/Kerry in the 80's to get to IRA members? me thinks not!:eek:
(not the same, but not that different according to your point of view)0 -
munchester29 wrote: »Exapansion. not building new settlements, which was my point.
Expansion has the same effect as building new ones, stealing Palestinians land.
They have expanded, which I have said all along and there will be new ones built. You need to stop denying the undeniable. Its ridiculous at this point. At this point you are splitting hairs.
Also, planning news one shows there intent and they will eventually be built. To pretend that they are not going to do so is pointless.
Putting 12,000 new colonists into the West Bank, shows Israel wants land and not peace, as you suggest. They gave with one hand in Gaza and took with the other in the West Bank. There actions speak a 1000's time louder than there words.munchester29 wrote: »Sorry, have to leave now, I'll comment on Israeli settlement expansion tomorrow.
Will you show evidence that Israel is not stealing more Palestinian land and not building/expanding new/current colonies? I have provided evidence that shows that they have expanding or planning new colonies.
I am sure you can provide a shred of proof to refute Israel colonial expansion or try and excuse, by saying they have only expanding current ones, as well as planning on building news ones. Explain how these plans for new settlements and the expansion of the current ones aren't proof of Israel wanting land.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »Don’t lose your temper… Saying you proved me wrong when you submit no real proof except for your own views doesn’t make you right.
The proof is there for all to see. I keep posting references which prove you completely wrong on specific subjects. As have other people. Yet you continue to ignore that and plough on regardless.Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said it was one sided.
Honestly, are you deliberately taking the piss? That's precisely what you said.
Here:"Do you claim Hamas didn’t fire rockets into Israel all through the so called “ceasefire”, which was practically one sided?
I suppose now you'll argue that you said "practically". This is fast turning into a rather unfunny joke.Your evidence that Hamas reduced rocket attacks to almost nil and jailed people who were firing rockets proves nothing.
It proves your assertion wrong. See above.Not even one rocket should have been fired, and the Palestinians have always used a “revolving door” system when they “jail” other terrorist group members who commit terrorist acts when they are not supposed to. They usually free them very quickly.
Like for Fatah? Who you say Hamas have treated terribly. A little coherence please. Hamas, unlike Israel, has at least jailed people firing rockets.Saying Hamas was trying to protect Israel is kind of an insult to anyone’s intelligence.
It states in black and white in the article. Hamas was adhering to the terms of the ceasefire and making credible efforts to end ALL rocket attacks. It's there in the article, in black and white.I doubt Israel really knows who exactly is doing the firing from Gaza,
So why then on earth do you think Hamas should be blamed?
...answers on a postcard.
Besides that, you're wrong. Israel has an incredibly pervasive intelligence gathering operation in place, objectively, it's absolutely amazing. They also state that they know who fired rockets. Groups sometimes take responsibility and they can tell from the type of rocket who made what. Just like the IRA bombmakers were individually identified by British experts.and in any case – as Hamas is the Palestinian government it is their responsibility to stop such attacks, and they had enough time since they took control of Gaza to do that.
They were making very credible efforts, with no reciprocation only provocation from the Israelis. Hamas can't win, the rules of the game don't allow it.The fact they didn’t speaks volumes.
They did. It's in the article above, in black and white. Why do you contradict what's put directly in front of you? I can't understand it.I could also say “Israel is to abandon the settlement and drop the blockade and stop killing Hamas terrorists”. Does that make everything all right?
In return for Hamas reinstating its policy of stopping rockets, yes. Seeing as the Israelis, in their own words, stated this was the whole objective in the first place. Although it's going to be very difficult for Hamas to control the Strip now, the civilian infrastructure destroyed and 800 or so dead, almost 50% of them children (makes a mockery of Israel's claim to be targetting only militants given 50% of the population is children), there will be a lot of people running around with a deep and justified bitterness at Israel's actions. Although knowing Israel, this was also the objective, make Gaza ungovernable for Hamas and use that as anothe excuse to pound them.
Sickening cynicism.The sentence you are quoting implies a future action, not an action that was already taken.
Negotiations can start next week on it if Israel wants.In addition – even from this sentence it is obvious that Hamas plans on continuing attacking Israel (“…in any future confrontations…”)
This is the basis for a permanent solution. Hamas has said as much, it just can't, unfortunately, bend over and start using formulas that imply complete capitulation on their part. Like Ian Paisley saying he wanted to see the IRA in sackcloths it will never happen. When Ian Paisley chose to shake hands and move on peace was there waiting for him. As peace is there for the Israelis if they want to do what is right and accept the principle of 1967.With all the tunnels they have there (there are reports of hundreds if not thousands of tunnels), you would assume there would be no humanitarian crisis, what with all the aid being smuggled through the tunnels instead of weapons…
They're tiny. There are 1.5 million people to feed. 750,000 children. Do you think the greater Dublin area could be supplied through tiny tunnels?
They regularly collapse. What about stuff needed for building, agriculture? That won't get through.
The Israeli blockade of Gaza has led to a steady rise in chronic malnutrition among the 1.5 million people living in the strip, according to a leaked report from the Red Cross.
It chronicles the "devastating" effect of the siege that Israel imposed after Hamas seized control in June 2007 and notes that the dramatic fall in living standards has triggered a shift in diet that will damage the long-term health of those living in Gaza and has led to alarming deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D.
You'll tell me next that they're starving themselves so it will look bad for Israel.It proves what I was asked to prove, that Hamas seizes supplies and aid meant for the Palestinian people for their own use.
It proves that Hamas distributes supplies and aid. I don't agree, let the aid agencies do it for their own stuff, but what can you do. They're the government. They're not warehousing it and using it as a weapon against their own people. Nobody except the most gullible believes that.“Canada Free Press is a Canadian website, which publishes conservative news stories, features, and editorials. It is published in Toronto”
Anything that touts itself as "conservative" in the headline can't be trusted.Haven’t seen anything that would indicate it is a propaganda site. Except for the fact that you are against it…
I'll accept anything from a mainstream news source. There are thousands out there to choose from, you choose from strange places. Surely if they were accurate you could find them in mainstream newspapers, the fact you fail to do so says alot[/quote]Please supply links, I doubt you actually read the articles in full, and I’ll be happy to prove you are wrong once you do.
I have supplied links on those very subjects, one in the post you replied to for this, I have posted other links about 6/7 times now, others have too. You were proved wrong, based on those links, 2/3 times in the past on this, now you want me to post them again and prove you wrong yet again? This is madness. Go back and read the the thread. It's all covered, complete with these links you are yet again seeking, having ignored them the last 10 times they were put up. I'm not going to put them up again for you.Now that is truly funny, because as we all know, Hamas are soooo trust worthy. It’s only natural to assume they will keep their word. I mean, they haven’t so far, but hey – let’s be optimistic and trusting…
They have so far. I've proved it. You keep denying it.As for the international law angle – I’m all for international law being imposed on both sides. If Hamas are exempt, so is Israel.
So Israel should withdraw to it's 1967 borders. Good.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »Exapansion. not building new settlements, which was my point.
Sorry, have to leave now, I'll comment on Israeli settlement expansion tomorrow.
Why bother when you're 100% wrong. Proved to be wrong by verifiable sources and the Israeli state's own words and actions.
You're now saying your point was about expansion not new settlements or new settlements but not expansion? Even at that, you're wrong on both counts. I wish I had a word to describe how wrong you are but I'm sure it doesn't exist.
Come off it, this is a pathetic level of argument to be at.0 -
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concussion wrote: »Neither the Guardian article, nor any other I've found carries any statment from Hamas bar 'the Israelis broke the ceasefire'. The most obvious thing to me from their statements is that Hamas don't deny that their fighters were building a tunnel, as alleged by Israel.
To be perfectly honest, if it could be shown to me that Israel acted out of hand in this incident I would probably agree that they broke the ceasefire. But if Hamas were building a tunnel under the border, I would see that as a violation of the truce.
The Guardian state that it is CLAIMED the IDF found a tunnel. There is no proof. However, it is a FACT that Hamas only fired rockets after two attacks killing six of it's people. CNN reported this also.Yes, they are elected, but bear in mind they only beat Fatah by 3% in the elections, it was a close thing. They are not universally loved over there.
It doesn't matter a damn. It was an election. They won. They are part of the political environment over there.However, this good work is tempered quite heavily by the fact they are only out to help those who support them (which in the polls was only 44.5%.)
Sources please.If they were truly a democratic, charitable organisation they would help everyone but their brutality toward Fatah and its supporters shows this is untrue.
And Fatah are boy scouts are they? It's an ugly internecine (is that the word?) feud, there is nothing right about it. But it is what it is. Kill or be killed, maybe everyone should respect the result of the election and such things wouldn't happen.Another example of their behaviour is seen in their schooling - if children want to attend their schools, their parents must take an oath of allegience to Hamas.
And we have to get baptised and communion and confirmation to get into Catholic schools. I learned Ahmrán na bhFiann in primary school. It's a different environment over there. Mindsets take time to change.This also raised one of my previous points - bomb shelters. It was quite strongly put to me the other day that they barely have sewage systems and couldn't afford to build shelters. However if they can build schools, mosques and hospitals, why cant they take basic precautions to protect their civilians by providing them with shelters?
Yes, blame Hamas for a lack of bomb shelters, not Israel for dropping bombs. Or blame them for not undertaking the extremely complex and expensive task of underground construction while living under the strangehold of blockade. And before anybody replies, the tunnels used for smuggling are tiny and regularly collapse, they are not suitable for hiding away 1.5 million people. Can they even import heavy construction equipment? no? With half the population children and just about everyone in need of fuel, education, school, hospitals, food and yes, mosques they should start building underground bomb shelters? Newsflash: Israel withdrew from Gaza not that long ago.
I despair. I was to say what I really think of such a statement and what it implies of the person making it I'd be banned. Any tiny, little window of opportunity there to blame Hamas is taken, logic is thrown out of the window. This time blaming them for a lack of bomb shelters. Between this and other high priests of illogic posting I'll bow out of the debate.0 -
concussion wrote: »This also raised one of my previous points - bomb shelters. It was quite strongly put to me the other day that they barely have sewage systems and couldn't afford to build shelters. However if they can build schools, mosques and hospitals, why cant they take basic precautions to protect their civilians by providing them with shelters?
That is the most annoying crazy stupid awful horrible nasty ignorant bigoted
rubbish ive ever read!:mad: (attacked post not poster!)
How dare they build schools/hospitals/places of worship and not build BOMB SHELTERS;
Question:
basic precautions to protect their civilians by providing them with shelters from who?
Their kindly never do anything wrong neighbours Israel who you claim are wonderfull people?
Why would they need shelter from them?
Why would they need bomb shelters from such wonderfull people?
Why have the Irish goverment not built bomb shelters to protect ALL of us?
By your logic, it is a disgrace that we do not have them, im gonna ask my TD!
Imagine, building schools and hospitals, disgracefull!0 -
Wow, some people actually think they shouldn't build schools and hospitals. Thats just an astonishing thing to say.0
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That is the most annoying crazy stupid awful horrible nasty ignorant bigoted
rubbish ive ever read!:mad: (attacked post not poster!)
How dare they build schools/hospitals/places of worship and not build BOMB SHELTERS;
Question:
basic precautions to protect their civilians by providing them with shelters from who?
Their kindly never do anything wrong neighbours Israel who you claim are wonderfull people?
Why would they need shelter from them?
Why would they need bomb shelters from such wonderfull people?
Why have the Irish goverment not built bomb shelters to protect ALL of us?
By your logic, it is a disgrace that we do not have them, im gonna ask my TD!
Imagine, building schools and hospitals, disgracefull!
According to some of your fellow posters here they havent built schools or places of worship.
who should I believe pro palestinians or pro palestinians ? you are contradicting a lot of what other people here are saying and your comparision that Ireland should have shelters is ridicoulous if 1 million people in Ireland were under direct threat from rockets then yes they should build them but no they are not under threat the people from Israel need them thats why they have them.
Israeli government builds shelters to protect thier poulation from Palestinian rockets
Palestinian government has thier own bunkers while keeping civillians outside and spending the billions in aid on arms.0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »According to some of your fellow posters here they havent built schools or places of worship.
who should I believe pro palestinians or pro palestinians ? you are contradicting a lot of what other people here are saying and your comparision that Ireland should have shelters is ridicoulous if 1 million people in Ireland were under direct threat from rockets then yes they should build them but no they are not under threat the people from Israel need them thats why they have them.
Israeli government builds shelters to protect thier poulation from Palestinian rockets
Palestinian government has thier own bunkers while keeping civillians outside and spending the billions in aid on arms.
Spending Billions in aid on arms?
Where you get that from?
Where are these billions worth of arms? they don't seem to be using them.0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »According to some of your fellow posters here they havent built schools or places of worship.
who should I believe pro palestinians or pro palestinians ? you are contradicting a lot of what other people here are saying and your comparision that Ireland should have shelters is ridicoulous if 1 million people in Ireland were under direct threat from rockets then yes they should build them but no they are not under threat the people from Israel need them thats why they have them.
Israeli government builds shelters to protect thier poulation from Palestinian rockets
Palestinian government has thier own bunkers while keeping civillians outside and spending the billions in aid on arms.
Why should i care if im contradicting pro-palestinian posters?
What have other posters got to do with me?
Anyone who disagrees with you are all the same?
Oh thats right, im speaking out against an action by a country, and therefore I am anti that country and all its people!?
I dont really think Ireland needs bomb shelters btw, I was pointing out something in someone elses post, Too busy looking for angles to actually read something you might not agree with? :eek:
You seem to agree with him!?
Building hospitals instead of shelters, how dare they!:eek:
By the way: ALL goverments have shelters to protect their leaders :eek:
The USA have, England have, im sure Ireland and Israel have!
Go on attack the US for having shelters to protect its heads of state seeing as
the palestinians having them is so offensive to you0 -
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Please follow what I am asking (repeating actually)
I noted a few days ago that while Israeli civilians are well protected by bomb shelters, Palestinians are not.
I asked why their elected party did not provide them and I got a tirade of posts about how poor they were.
Now I have been shown that Hamas has done good things for Gaza such as building schools, mosques and hospitals.
So I ask again, since Gaza is under regular attack by Israel, why don't Hamas also build some safe places for their civilians?
elshambo, I can't believe how much you've misunderstood my post. Calm down and don't twist my words to suit your views. It's pretty obvious they need shelters against the Israeli's who are bombing the hell out of them. Show me where I've said the Israelis are wonderful people. Go on, post a link to where I've said that.0 -
Where did I twist your words?concussion wrote: »elshambo, I can't believe how much you've misunderstood my post. Calm down and don't twist my words to suit your views.
I quoted you directly!
My views?
What views are they btw?
Lots of people assuming i have views and they know what they are!
This are my views from earlier in the thread, in case you were interestedFor you info, I think terriorists are scum, no matter what their nationality, colour or creed and I think that a powerfully backed nation state acting in retaliation, targeting both the guility and innocent alike, are also terriorist in their intent as they are terriorising the innocent to get to the guility! (and to win voters in the hardline sections of their own society:eek::mad:)concussion wrote: »Show me where I've said the Israelis are wonderful people. Go on, post a link to where I've said that.
"wonderful people" do i have to find exact words or just you backing Israel in the current nonsence?
lot of show me the exact words posts on here!0 -
Spending Billions in aid on arms?
Where you get that from?
Where are these billions worth of arms? they don't seem to be using them.
tell me where the money is going then?
is it feeding the palestinian people?
is it building schools and places of worship ?
is it going to swiss bank accounts?0 -
munchester29 wrote: »Just wanted to highlight...
Seems there is always an excuse for Palestinian violence.?
Yes, its called "colonialism".munchester29 wrote: »Oliver Cromwell? Are you serious?
Entirely. Or Apartheid Era South Africans, Chinese occupiers in Tibet....all the same thing to me.munchester29 wrote: »I think that most Israelis want nothing more than to disengage themselves from the Palestinians and the occupied territories,.
Then why are they expanding settlements?
Verification from a third party source, or its worthless.....munchester29 wrote: »Here is a video showing Hamas firing from a school:,.munchester29 wrote: »Nice of you to prove the media is biased...:,.
Theres a conspiracy forum for that kind of talk.0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »tell me where the money is going then?
is it feeding the palestinian people?
is it building schools and places of worship ?
is it going to swiss bank accounts?
I dunno.
But it doesn't seem to be for weapons.0 -
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IRISH RAIL wrote: »tell me where the money is going then?
is it feeding the palestinian people?
is it building schools and places of worship ?
is it going to swiss bank accounts?
I was just logging out and i saw you were in
Any chance you can reply to my reply to you where you called my a pro-palestinian something or other and thought getting at me for contradicting someone else was a good thing?:eek::D
When he questioned you on the Billions btw I thing he was questioning the fact that you claim Billions are being miss-spent
*
Never mind you have gone again
Shame; everytime I reply to you is just before you logout
Im sure its just a coincidence!0
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