1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

IRISH RAIL

elshambo wrote: »

I was just logging out and i saw you were in

Any chance you can reply to my reply to you where you called my a pro-palestinian something or other and thought getting at me for contradicting someone else was a good thing?:eek::D

When he questioned you on the Billions btw I thing he was questioning the fact that you claim Billions are being miss-spent

*
Never mind you have gone again
Shame; everytime I reply to you is just before you logout
Im sure its just a coincidence!

back again
My juding of your posting leads me to assume you are pro palestinian or lean that way I have read your post that says you dont support terrorists but a lot of people here dont call hamas terrorists they prefer the title democraticly elected government. I havent said you were anti Israel or anti semitic to bring that in is childish.

elshambo

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

back again
My juding of your posting leads me to assume you are pro palestinian or lean that way I have read your post that says you dont support terrorists I havent said you were anti Israel or anti semitic to bring that in is childish.

Childish?
Id say Its the least childish thing in the world at the moment!

So why did you make a big deal out of my contradicting some total strangers
who you also disagreed with?

"Your judging of my posting"!
You lumped us intogether!
and therefore you did infer something
What?
Fail to see where i was being childish!

im defo out the gap!

IRISH RAIL

elshambo wrote: »

Childish?
Id say Its the least childish thing in the world at the moment!

So why did you make a big deal out of my contradicting some total strangers
who you also disagreed with?

"Your judging of my posting"!
You lumped us intogether!
and therefore you did infer something
What?
Fail to see where i was being childish!

im defo out the gap!

yep you sure are

TOMASJ

I see the Israelis are trying to kill the messenger now,
those photographs of over 220 children killed by these heroes are not helping with their genocide,

F16 precision missile hit a building next to where international journalists are reporting from Gaza, Destroying some satellite equipment, Luckily only one injured,
These brave reporters being the only people getting the truth to the outside world of the carnage that is being carried out by the IDF child murderers.

Mr.Micro

Why does Israel not allow the press to record what is going on in Gaza? What is the point of the bloated UN made redundant by Blair and Bush, if it can do nothing?

IRISH RAIL

TOMASJ wrote: »

I see the Israelis are trying to kill the messenger now,
those photographs of over 220 children killed by these heroes are not helping with their genocide,

F16 precision missile hit a building next to where international journalists are reporting from Gaza, Destroying some satellite equipment, Luckily only one injured,
These brave reporters being the only people getting the truth to the outside world of the carnage that is being carried out by the IDF child murderers.

but its been stated no international journolists are in gaza.

marius

snip

Mr.Micro

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

but its been stated no international journolists are in gaza.

What has Israel got to hide? Perhaps the world would not agree with its actions?

TOMASJ

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

but its been stated no international journolists are in gaza.

They must have been there before the IDF killers came in,
I think going by the reports, some of them live in that area of Palestine

Mal-Adjusted

i love the fact that the Isrealis are now bitching at Ireland for expressing it's feelings over Gaza. these people would blame Zeus and Herra before admiting they were anything other than innocent victims.

dublincelt

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

i love the fact that the Isrealis are now bitching at Ireland for expressing it's feelings over Gaza. these people would blame Zeus and Herra before admiting they were anything other than innocent victims.

The only thing that the Irish Government have done right this past year is to annoy those state terrorist bastards.

Well done the Irish Government, particularly Chris Andrews and Micheal Martin.

Sand

I re-read the first page of this thread, and the 124th.

I think weve made some excellent progress.

marius

[EDIT] snip [/EDIT]

ionix5891

UN levels war crimes warning at Israel

Killing of 30 people in Gaza when army shelled house full of evacuees 'has all hallmarks of war crime', says high commissioner for human rights


The body of a girl who was found in the rubble of her destroyed house following an Israeli air strike on a house in Zeitoun Photograph: Mohammed Abed/AFP/Getty Images

The Israeli military may have committed war crimes in Gaza, the UN's most senior human rights official said tonight, as Israeli troops pressed on with their increasingly deadly offensive in defiance of a UN security council resolution demanding a ceasefire.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun





this is from the Guardian front page, cue the Israeli apologists in 3,2,1....

Mr.Micro

The killing of innocent children should make both sides feel shame and horror and whatever Israel is doing in Gaza its clearly not working with innocents being slaughtered.

dublincelt

ionix5891 wrote: »

UN levels war crimes warning at Israel

Killing of 30 people in Gaza when army shelled house full of evacuees 'has all hallmarks of war crime', says high commissioner for human rights


The body of a girl who was found in the rubble of her destroyed house following an Israeli air strike on a house in Zeitoun Photograph: Mohammed Abed/AFP/Getty Images[/SIZE]



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun





this is from the Guardian front page, cue the Israeli apologists in 3,2,1....

Que the Zionist apologist reply, It was all the fault of Hamas. The state of Israel are the greatest threat to world peace in modern times.

TOMASJ

Have the Israelis no decency or shame whatsoever,

The Israeli government have approved the so called third phase of their murder campaign this evening,
I am beginning to think these psychopaths are enjoying decapitating little children,

I watched a report on Press TV this evening it was very disturbing to see the look of fear on every child shown on camera,they all kept looking towards the sky from where at any minute death could come from a IDF "smart" bomb, God help those poor little children,
"Israel" and your apologetics should be very proud of the torture you are inflicting on innocent helpless young toddlers.

IRISH RAIL

Ah yes the "miracoulus house"
the one where the IDF told them to go to even though they had got no where near the place when this had "happened" less than 12 hours after the first ground offensive began but im sure you can back up with proof the IDF were there telling them to go to this house. que the video of the little boy saying the Jews told them to go there.

IRISH RAIL

TOMASJ wrote: »

Have the Palestinians no decency or shame whatsoever,


I am beginning to think these psychopaths are enjoying decapitating little children,

I watched a report on Press TV this evening it was very disturbing to see the look of fear on every child shown on camera,they all kept looking towards the sky from where at any minute death could come from a Hamas rocket, God help those poor little children,
"Palestine" and your apologetics should be very proud of the torture you are inflicting on innocent helpless young toddlers.

Funny how that rings true aswell

TOMASJ

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Ah yes the "miracoulus house"
the one where the IDF told them to go to even though they had got no where near the place when this had "happened" less than 12 hours after the first ground offensive began but im sure you can back up with proof the IDF were there telling them to go to this house. que the video of the little boy saying the Jews told them to go there.

Looks like the three monkeys analogy applies where the Israeli army are concerned according to you,
All others who give an account of events involving wrong doing by your IDF heroes are stupid, blind, anti Semitic, terrorists, pro Palestinian, ......

Can I suggest you remove the blinkers and look at what is taking place in Gaza objectively,

Manic Moran

The Saint wrote: »

When the UN state that they think differently and conduct an investigation they are usually proved to be right and the Israelis tend to stay quiet.

<snip>

Israel seems to have a default position when things like this happen so I think it would be wise to take what they say with a generous dose of salt. I'll wait for the independent investigation into this but history leads to me lean more towards the UN's version of events.

Fair enough. But in this case, the 'salt' is provided by something pretty evident. It's not a 'he said/she said', it's a simple 'Go to the hospital and look at the wounds.' If indeed the wounds are caused by gunfire, it does not prove that the Israelis were not responsible, but it does prove that the UN reports are wrong.

No can you please point out any event where the UN have said one thing, the IDF said another and the IDF being proved correct?

Nope. I tend not to keep that close tabs on it. They certainly don't often make the news, though I've no idea if it's because it's just not dramatic enough. Evidently you do, though, since you say 'usually' and not 'always.'

Oftentimes, however, I would wager that it would be becase the Israelis cannot be proven correct because it simply isn't within the bounds of capability.

For example, compare the UN truck/tank shell incident with the school incident.

Claim: Israeli tanks firing shells caused the deaths and wounds.
Evidence: Two individuals (and one body) currently in a hospital.
Possible end-states directly resulting from the claim, 2 in number.
i They have gunshot wounds.
ii They have fragmentation wounds.

If i then the claim that Israeli shells caused the casualties cannot be correct. It doesn't say who did do the shooting, but does tear down the UN story.
If ii, the UN claim is probably correct for there is physical evidence corroborating it. This can be done at any time in the next couple of weeks, until the wounds heal.

Compare with the school incident.
Claim: Israeli shells were fired into an area from which no Hamas fire was occuring.
Evidence: Witness statements from personnel at the school, personnel in the IDF.
Possible end-states: At least 4 main ones.
1) There was no Hamas activity. The witnesses are correct, the IDF are lying.
2) There was no Hamas activity. The witnesses are correct, the IDF are mistaken.
3) There was Hamas activity. The witnesses did not notice it, are being honest to the best of their knowledge, the IDF are telling the truth.
4) There was Hamas activity. The witnesses did notice it, are lying, the IDF are telling the truth.

There is no current evidence as to the presence, or not, of Hamas activity. (Unless you count the claims of the two identified Hamas mortarmen being amongst the dead, but we'll ignore that)

The UN claim is impossible to disprove as the only possible empirical proof can be provided by organisations with equipment which continuously monitor the area. In this case, the only people in the area with counter-battery radars or surveillance are the Israelis, and their equipment may not record anything other than readouts that could not be presented, even if anyone was willing to believe them.

The vast majority of the controversial claims seem to be of a similar nature to the UN school above. A whole load of testimony, but the only people with the more reliable mechanical equipment are the other side. Which people don't want to believe, because they're skeptical and prefer to go with testimony.

Even the argument over 'who broke the ceasefire' is impossible to prove from the Israeli side. The presence of the blockade is easy to prove. Any weapons smuggling causing the blockade would likely only be available to intelligence services, and the Palestinians are unlikely to volunteer the information, so it can't be proven that the Israeli violation was a response to Palestinian violation.

a war implies some level of parity

Like, oh, Iraq invading Kuwait? Germany invading Belgium?

I'm not so sure that this is completely true
<snip>
Interestingly, the Arabs in 1948 lost a war that was, as far as they were concerned, lost already in 1936-1939, because they have fought against the British mandate and the Israeli or the Jewish Yishuv, the Jewish pre-state, and they were defeated then, so they came to the hour of trial in 1948 already as a defeated nation.

Sounds almost like a claim for manifest destiny than a a military analysis. Certainly in terms of manpower and equipment, the Israelis were seriously outgunned. They took tanks from scrapheaps and put them into service.

NTM

youcrazyjesus!

News just in: Israel didn't even invade Gaza, it was misreported the UN. It certainly
wasn't their shells which killed civilians, they only drop leaflets.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Fair enough. But in this case, the 'salt' is provided by something pretty evident. It's not a 'he said/she said', it's a simple 'Go to the hospital and look at the wounds.' If indeed the wounds are caused by gunfire, it does not prove that the Israelis were not responsible, but it does prove that the UN reports are wrong.



Nope. I tend not to keep that close tabs on it. They certainly don't often make the news, though I've no idea if it's because it's just not dramatic enough. Evidently you do, though, since you say 'usually' and not 'always.'

Oftentimes, however, I would wager that it would be becase the Israelis cannot be proven correct because it simply isn't within the bounds of capability.

For example, compare the UN truck/tank shell incident with the school incident.

Claim: Israeli tanks firing shells caused the deaths and wounds.
Evidence: Two individuals (and one body) currently in a hospital.
Possible end-states directly resulting from the claim, 2 in number.
i They have gunshot wounds.
ii They have fragmentation wounds.

If i then the claim that Israeli shells caused the casualties cannot be correct. It doesn't say who did do the shooting, but does tear down the UN story.
If ii, the UN claim is probably correct for there is physical evidence corroborating it. This can be done at any time in the next couple of weeks, until the wounds heal.

Compare with the school incident.
Claim: Israeli shells were fired into an area from which no Hamas fire was occuring.
Evidence: Witness statements from personnel at the school, personnel in the IDF.
Possible end-states: At least 4 main ones.
1) There was no Hamas activity. The witnesses are correct, the IDF are lying.
2) There was no Hamas activity. The witnesses are correct, the IDF are mistaken.
3) There was Hamas activity. The witnesses did not notice it, are being honest to the best of their knowledge, the IDF are telling the truth.
4) There was Hamas activity. The witnesses did notice it, are lying, the IDF are telling the truth.

There is no current evidence as to the presence, or not, of Hamas activity. (Unless you count the claims of the two identified Hamas mortarmen being amongst the dead, but we'll ignore that)

The UN claim is impossible to disprove as the only possible empirical proof can be provided by organisations with equipment which continuously monitor the area. In this case, the only people in the area with counter-battery radars or surveillance are the Israelis, and their equipment may not record anything other than readouts that could not be presented, even if anyone was willing to believe them.

The vast majority of the controversial claims seem to be of a similar nature to the UN school above. A whole load of testimony, but the only people with the more reliable mechanical equipment are the other side. Which people don't want to believe, because they're skeptical and prefer to go with testimony.

Even the argument over 'who broke the ceasefire' is impossible to prove from the Israeli side. The presence of the blockade is easy to prove. Any weapons smuggling causing the blockade would likely only be available to intelligence services, and the Palestinians are unlikely to volunteer the information, so it can't be proven that the Israeli violation was a response to Palestinian violation.



Like, oh, Iraq invading Kuwait? Germany invading Belgium?



Sounds almost like a claim for manifest destiny than a a military analysis. Certainly in terms of manpower and equipment, the Israelis were seriously outgunned. They took tanks from scrapheaps and put them into service.

NTM

Manic Moran

News just in: Israel didn't even invade Gaza, it was misreported the UN. It certainly wasn't their shells which killed civilians, they only drop leaflets.

Have I ever claimed anything other?

Though I guess it could have been the Space Lizards. After all, has anyone conducted a forensic examination of the rounds?

NTM

kraggy

I don't know much about what has now gone beyond a human catastrophe, but I do know this.

Israel have NO interest in peace. They do not care about non-Jewish life. That is clearly evident in their actions in the last 48 hours.

John Ging, head of the UNRWA in Gaza has said that they have had to postpone/cancel relief operations because the Israelis shot 2 UN drivers who were delivering food in CLEARLY marked vehicles.

Worse still, the IDF lead more than 100 Palestinian's into a house telling them that they were to stay there for safety.They shelled it minutes later. 30 people died, mostly children. This has also been confirmed by the UN.

This is not Israel protecting itself. This is barbarism for the benefit of them and them only.

They are a cruel, sick, despicable and callous "country".

It's soul-destroying to say the least.

Manic Moran

kraggy wrote: »

John Ging, head of the UNRWA in Gaza has said that they have had to postpone/cancel relief operations because the Israelis shot 2 UN drivers who were delivering food in CLEARLY marked vehicles.

Well, since some people appear not to be all that interested in a Jerusalem Post claim that the aid workers were not hit by Israeli tank shells (Despite the fact that apparently the rounds missed, and no mean feat for a target the size of a truck), maybe a UN report would be of more interest?

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/TUJA-7N55DU/$File/full_report.pdf

Paragraph 3 wrote:

Furthermore,
during the morning of 8 January, a convoy came under fire at the Erez Crossing Point. One UNRWA contractor was
shot and two were injured

So the UN now says in an official document that he was shot.
Jerusalem Post says the hospital is verifying that he was shot.
Are people still convinced that it was Israeli tank shells wot dun the deed?

(It's worth noting that the UN document does't attempt to affix blame for any of the incidents, staying only with reasonably provable facts)

NTM

concussion

elshambo wrote: »

Where did I twist your words?

I asked a genuine question - why didn't they build bomb shelters when they were building their schools, hospitals etc. I didn't say they should not have built hospitals, that is you twisting my words, as can be seen with these over-reactions:

elshambo wrote: »

Building hospitals instead of shelters, how dare they!:eek:

and

elshambo wrote: »

Go on attack the US for having shelters to protect its heads of state seeing as
the palestinians having them is so offensive to you

---

elshambo wrote: »

My views?
What views are they btw?

Your views are that I support Israel and make excuses for everything they do, as evidenced by your quote below.

elshambo wrote: »

Their kindly never do anything wrong neighbours Israel who you claim are wonderfull people?

I have stated already in this thread that I don't support either side and I have never said the Israeli's are "wonderful people". So you can retract that.

Post 1447

concussion wrote:

I'd just like to say, before anyone comments on what I'm about to post, that I don't just accept the Israeli version of things out of hand and I don't support either side here because I don't know who's wrong and whose worse (I don't think wronger is a word). I do have a great interest in trying to see through the propaganda and hype from both sides

---

elshambo wrote: »

"wonderful people" do i have to find exact words or just you backing Israel in the current nonsence?

Anything that says I support Israel :rolleyes:

concussion

youcrazyjesus!
- your analogy of children conforming to Catholic beliefs to get into Catholic schools is flawed.
The closer analogy in this situation would be one where Sinn Fein was in power (but was viewed as a terrorist organisation). IRA fighters kidnap and brutally punish those who don't agree with Sinn Feins views. The only way you can get your children into a decent school is to take an oath of allegience to a terrorist party who's main goal is the total destruction of the UK. While your children are being learn to read and write they are also taught to hate their neighbours.

Manic Moran - thanks for the UN report



Also came across these reports
From the New York times, based on information from the Israeli military
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/middleeast/07mideast.html?scp=1&sq=Ibrahim%20Amen&st=cse

A young witness from Jabaliya, Ibrahim Amen, 16, said that he had seen one of the militants, whom he identified as Abu Khaled Abu Asker, in the area of the school right before the attack.

Ibrahim said he saw the militant after he answered calls for volunteers to pile sand around the camp “to help protect the resistance fighters.” Ibrahim went to pile sand near the school with his brother, Iyad, 20, who was then injured by the Israeli mortar fire.

"Anyone on either side of the confrontation lines found to have violated international humanitarian law must be brought to justice,” Mr. Gunness said.

Despite being quite sure there was no activity, the UN don't just dismiss Israeli reports out of hand.

The Associated Press has also carried it and their information has been carried by several newspapers
From the Herald News online:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS_LOPSIDED_WAR?SITE=MAFAL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Palestinian residents, speaking on condition of anonymity because of fear of retribution, said several militants ran toward the crowd, trying to use it as cover, when the first Israeli mortar shell missed them.
.......
Gaza militants used to wear black or khaki uniforms, but since the start of the Israeli offensive have been operating in civilian clothing, blending into crowds, residents say.

From the Jerusalem Post:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167272256&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Two residents of the area near UN school that was shelled by the IDF on Tuesday said that they had seen a small group of terrorists firing mortar rounds from a street close to the school. The two spoke with The Associated Press by telephone on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.

marius

Manic Moran wrote: »

Like, oh, Iraq invading Kuwait? Germany invading Belgium?

Nice one - seems you are finally coming around to how most of us view this conflict. I would agree that Israels invasion of Gaza has certain similarities to Hitlers invasion of Belgium and Saddam's invasion of Kuwait - I just did not expect you to concede this point.....very open minded of you.

Serenity Now!

marius wrote: »

Nice one - seems you are finally coming around to how most of us view this conflict. I would agree that Israels invasion of Gaza has certain similarities to Hitlers invasion of Belgium and Saddam's invasion of Kuwait - I just did not expect you to concede this point.....very open minded of you.

How did you view the other Arab countries' occupations of various parts of Palestine? Equally as damning? If so, good.

horseflesh

Never mind that Manic was clearly talking in terms of military might, and nothing else :rolleyes: