1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

concussion · 10-01-2009 7:08pm

I can't believe you're getting so upset with someone going to bed in the middle of an internet arguement.

elshambo · 10-01-2009 7:12pm

concussion wrote: »

I can't believe you're getting so upset with someone going to bed in the middle of an internet arguement.

I couldnt give a monkies when someone goes to bed
he can spend the rest of his life in bed for all i care

you know that was not the point of the post,
dont belittle the point of this thread and the lives of the people who have died by pretending you thought that was the point of the post!

I think TOMASJ said it best

TOMASJ wrote: »

More sidetracking

lwellan dowd · 10-01-2009 7:51pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

and how many of them actually died due to these rockets? compares to the Palestinians slaughtered

can the moderators maybe check this guys IP? 2 posts all in this thread , registered only few days ago...

What are you saying.....not enough Israelis are being slaughtered for your liking.

PS:
Whats your issue with somebody posting 2 replies shortly after registering.......Have I broken some Islamic law here....where do you think we are.....Iran.
I might post another tomorrow if I have your permission.

And another thing:- why assume I'm a guy! You should really be more PC Miss Ionix.

The Saint · 10-01-2009 7:54pm

lwellan dowd wrote: »

What are you saying.....not enough Israelis are being slaughtered for your liking.

PS:
Whats your issue with somebody posting 2 replies shortly after registering.......Have I broken some Islamic law here....where do you think we are.....Iran.
I might post another tomorrow if I have your permission.

And another thing:- why assume I'm a guy! You should really be more PC Miss Ionix.

I can see you're going to be a valued contributer to this thread. :rolleyes:

wes · 10-01-2009 8:21pm

A nice bit of humour from the excellent Daily Show:

Strip Maul

I know the Daily Show is a comedy show, but John Stewart makes some excellent points and some great jokes too.

mike65 · 10-01-2009 8:26pm

Freinds of Hamas attacking the rozzers in London I see.

lwellan dowd · 10-01-2009 8:27pm

The Saint wrote: »

I can see you're going to be a valued contributer to this thread. :rolleyes:

Thank you o beatifed one

TOMASJ · 10-01-2009 8:29pm

lwellan dowd wrote: »

What are you saying.....not enough Israelis are being slaughtered for your liking.

I hear the IDF are dropping leaflets on Gaza, telling people there "not to be in the same area as members of Hamas" the implied threat being, you are a legit target if you do not do as we bid you,
seem to me its "they who believe that not butchered enough children so far" around 240 to date,
NOW if a fraction of that number were Israelis children killed by Hamas your post would make some sense.

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 8:37pm

Ok, I read all the additions to this thread from when I left it yesterday and I see I still owe some people some answers, so please accuse my lateness.

wes wrote: »

Expansion has the same effect as building new ones, stealing Palestinians land.

At least we agree that no new settlements are being built by Israel.
What you said is wrong though. The explanation will come in my next comment.

wes wrote: »

They have expanded, which I have said all along and there will be new ones built. You need to stop denying the undeniable. Its ridiculous at this point. At this point you are splitting hairs.
Also, planning news one shows there intent and they will eventually be built. To pretend that they are not going to do so is pointless.

Building new settlements might mean stealing Palestinian land but the fact is Israel hasn’t done that for a few years now.
Sure, they have plans for new settlements, they intend to build new settlements, they talk about it, and they threaten the Palestinians with the possibility of building some, but, yet, so far… They haven’t done it in a few years.

As far as your ability to predict the future, what can I say about that? Still remains to be seen if your predictions come true or not.
Can’t really blame Israel for something they haven’t done though, can we?

Now, to the difference between building new ones and expanding existing ones:
Expanding existing settlements doesn’t require more Palestinian lands. It is done in existing settlements which Israel considers as its own. The land used is already under Israel’s control, so no Palestinians are kicked out of their homes. Israel’s claims will only be settled when peace negotiations start (real peace, not part time truces to re-equip), and the whole world (UN) will have a say, including the Palestinians and Israel. More violence only serves to further that day away.

The Israeli PM has said:
“Olmert has pledged to not construct any new settlements and to dismantle unauthorised outposts, but has repeatedly emphasised that Israel did not intend to halt expansion of settlements in east Jerusalem or those blocs in the West Bank that it intends to keep under any peace deal.”

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/09/7573
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html

wes wrote: »

Putting 12,000 new colonists into the West Bank, shows Israel wants land and not peace, as you suggest. They gave with one hand in Gaza and took with the other in the West Bank. There actions speak a 1000's time louder than there words.

The guardian estimated the total number of settlers Israel removed from the Gaza area at 8500. A large part didn’t go to the west bank, and there was no influx in settler numbers as far as I know, so I would say the real number is probably much lower than 12000, buy maybe your source exaggerated a bit. Happens in the media. The real number doesn’t matter.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/aug/17/israel4

The fact is Israel left Gaza, relocating thousands of Israeli settlers. And I quote you: “There actions speak a 1000's time louder than there words”. Since they are free people in a democratic state, they can go where they want in any part of Israel, and some of them joined existing settlements in the west bank, some of which Israel has a claim to.

Still, no additional Palestinian land grabbing for years.

wes wrote: »

Will you show evidence that Israel is not stealing more Palestinian land and not building/expanding new/current colonies? I have provided evidence that shows that they have expanding or planning new colonies.

I am sure you can provide a shred of proof to refute Israel colonial expansion or try and excuse, by saying they have only expanding current ones, as well as planning on building news ones. Explain how these plans for new settlements and the expansion of the current ones aren't proof of Israel wanting land.

You said it yourself – action speaks louder than words. Israel can plan, talk, sing & dance as much as they want, you can’t blame them unless they actually act.
So all your evidence basically means nothing.
If the Palestinians were to be judged for all they are planning or saying they will do to the Israelis, then we can all start blaming them with genocide right now.

I don’t need to prove to you that Israel is not stealing land. The burden of proof is on you, since you are doing the blaming.

Youcrazyjezus I hope this answers some of your questions also.

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 8:43pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

more interesting reading

this time exploring the "they don't recognise Israel issue"

http://ifamericansknew.org/media/rte.html

Looks like a propaganda site.

ionix5891 · 10-01-2009 8:47pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Looks like a propaganda site.

Saree Makdisi, a professor of English and comparative literature at UCLA, writes frequently about the Middle East...

I dont see you having a title of a professor btw

lwellan dowd wrote:

What are you saying.....not enough Israelis are being slaughtered for your liking.

i didn't say that, but Israelis are certainly murdering alot more than 10 people that were killed on their side, hey just take a look at the title

im gonna do exactly the same thing you just did and try to twist words, are you saying Israeli lives are worth more?

ionix5891 · 10-01-2009 8:49pm

munchester29 wrote: »

The fact is Israel left Gaza, relocating thousands of Israeli settlers. And I quote you: “There actions speak a 1000's time louder than there words”. Since they are free people in a democratic state, they can go where they want in any part of Israel, and some of them joined existing settlements in the west bank, some of which Israel has a claim to.

Still, no additional Palestinian land grabbing for years.

they left Gaza (and put in a chocking siege) but continued land grabbing in the West Bank, explain the logic there please

munchester29 wrote: »

Building new settlements might mean stealing Palestinian land but the fact is Israel hasn’t done that for a few years now.

are you for real? they never stopped grabbing land!

2007 -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7136984.stm

2008 -> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/16/israelandthepalestinians.usa

2008 -> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html?_r=1

they did pull out of gaza but they never stopped colonising the westbank

more reading for you here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

and please do backup all your statements with facts an links like me and other respected members here do

dont just sprout nonsense out of your behind

cheerio

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 8:50pm

marius wrote: »

the point seems to have gone over your head.....the only examples he could give of one country with overwhelming military might attacking another country was Hitlers Germany and Saddam's Iraq. Not a great comment on Israel in the current situation.

UK vs Argentina
China Vs Tibet

I'm sure there are more

wes · 10-01-2009 8:54pm

munchester29 wrote: »

At least we agree that no new settlements are being built by Israel.
What you said is wrong though. The explanation will come in my next comment.

There planning them however.

munchester29 wrote: »

Building new settlements might mean stealing Palestinian land but the fact is Israel hasn’t done that for a few years now.

They have been expanding them and are stealing there land. Expansion has the same effect as building new ones, stealing Palestinian land.

munchester29 wrote: »

Sure, they have plans for new settlements, they intend to build new settlements, they talk about it, and they threaten the Palestinians with the possibility of building some, but, yet, so far… They haven’t done it in a few years.

They are expanding them. No reason to believe they won't build new ones, seeing as they have no issue with stealing land as it is.

Also explain how expanding existing colonies is any different than build new ones exactly. The result is the same stealing Palestinian land. Seems clear to me Israel wants land.

munchester29 wrote: »

As far as your ability to predict the future, what can I say about that? Still remains to be seen if your predictions come true or not.
Can’t really blame Israel for something they haven’t done though, can we?

There planning on stealing land, I can damn well blame them on that.

Also, they are presently stealing land with there colonial expansion. So I can blame them on that.

Also, please show me one reason why I shouldn't take Israel seriously when they say they will build more colonies?

munchester29 wrote: »

Now, to the difference between building new ones and expanding existing ones:
Expanding existing settlements doesn’t require more Palestinian lands. It is done in existing settlements which Israel considers as its own. The land used is already under Israel’s control, so no Palestinians are kicked out of their homes. Israel’s claims will only be settled when peace negotiations start (real peace, not part time truces to re-equip), and the whole world (UN) will have a say, including the Palestinians and Israel. More violence only serves to further that day away.

Nonsense. Pure and utter nonsense. Expansion means they steal more land. Where the hell are they suppose to build there new building in the sky or something? They need more land for expansion, to deny this is pure nonsense.

Also, they do kick Palestinians out of there homes all the time. Stop pretending this isn't taking place.

munchester29 wrote: »

The Israeli PM has said:
“Olmert has pledged to not construct any new settlements and to dismantle unauthorised outposts, but has repeatedly emphasised that Israel did not intend to halt expansion of settlements in east Jerusalem or those blocs in the West Bank that it intends to keep under any peace deal.”

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/09/7573
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html

So you admit that they are stealing more land then.

You do realize that the link I provide shows that Olmert clearly changed his mind as they announced new colonies. Trying to pretend that is not the case is rubbish.

munchester29 wrote: »

The guardian estimated the total number of settlers Israel removed from the Gaza area at 8500. A large part didn’t go to the west bank, and there was no influx in settler numbers as far as I know, so I would say the real number is probably much lower than 12000, buy maybe your source exaggerated a bit. Happens in the media. The real number doesn’t matter.

You have no source to back this up. I provided mine and it was from the Guardian, the same one you use here. 12000 is the correct number.

Please provide proof that this number is substantially wrong, because right now you don't have a leg to stand on.

munchester29 wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/aug/17/israel4

The fact is Israel left Gaza, relocating thousands of Israeli settlers. And I quote you: “There actions speak a 1000's time louder than there words”. Since they are free people in a democratic state, they can go where they want in any part of Israel, and some of them joined existing settlements in the west bank, some of which Israel has a claim to.

Still, no additional Palestinian land grabbing for years.

Your own links confirm this theft. You denial is beyond silly at this point. Provide proof that Israel has not engaged in a land grab. You have no done so at all.

munchester29 wrote: »

You said it yourself – action speaks louder than words. Israel can plan, talk, sing & dance as much as they want, you can’t blame them unless they actually act.

They have stolen more land. Stop pretending they have not.

munchester29 wrote: »

So all your evidence basically means nothing.

Just because you deny facts doesn't make what your saying true. The links you provide prove my point. They are stealing land.

munchester29 wrote: »

If the Palestinians were to be judged for all they are planning or saying they will do to the Israelis, then we can all start blaming them with genocide right now.

I have been judging Israel on there land grabbing. Your denial means less than nothing in this.

munchester29 wrote: »

I don’t need to prove to you that Israel is not stealing land. The burden of proof is on you, since you are doing the blaming.

I have provided proof.

You have not bothered to provide an single shred of evidence to refute what I am saying. The burden is on you to refute my links, you have not done this. You have just pretending that expansion does not entail stealing more land. Which is silly as new building would clearly need more land. Also, Israels wall has taken more land as well. You are just continually denying facts and have not provided anything to back what your saying.

Again, I ask you to provide proof of Israel not stealing more land. You have not provided any. What your saying is nonsensical. Explain how expanding colonies will not need more land exactly. Explain how it is possible to build more buildings and not take more land.

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 8:57pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

and how many of them actually died due to these rockets? compares to the Palestinians slaughtered

can the moderators maybe check this guys IP? 2 posts all in this thread , registered only few days ago...

So Israel is not supposed to defend itself until there are enough Israeli deaths to make you happy?

As for your second comment, I would assume many people have joined recently due to recent events.
Your suspicion of everyone who doesn't support your views is a bit paranoid.

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 9:00pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

Saree Makdisi, a professor of English and comparative literature at UCLA, writes frequently about the Middle East...

I dont see you having a title of a professor btw

Professors are a dime a dozen my friend, and I'm sure that a
professor of English and comparative literature is a real expert on the middle east...

titwank · 10-01-2009 9:01pm

We should all learn to get along,
Like brothers and sisters,
In the soil where we grew together,
Soon we will lie,
Looking to the sun for eternal hope,
Crying tears for the blue sky,
Rain on my oh joy of life,
And bring Peace to the Middle East.

ionix5891 · 10-01-2009 9:03pm

munchester29 wrote: »

So Israel is not supposed to defend itself until there are enough Israeli deaths to make you happy?

As for your second comment, I would assume many people have joined recently due to recent events.
Your suspicion of everyone who doesn't support your views is a bit paranoid.

ill throw that question right back are you

so are palestinians not supposed to defend themselves?

oh i forgot they are not human

after most of their land is taken, the remaining population is living in a giant concentration camp, and they are not getting enough food and medical supplies

munchester29 wrote: »

Professors are a dime a dozen my friend, and I'm sure that a
professor of English and comparative literature is a real expert on the middle east...

if you bothered to read the article linked he commented on the language used in modern newspapers in the US, thats quite in his field of study

Nodin · 10-01-2009 9:04pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Ok, I read all the additions to this thread from when I left it yesterday and I see(....)your questions also.

Expansion via the "blind eye"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/807108.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7082629.stm

Expansion via the open eye.

A new neighborhood comprising 27 trailers is currently under construction at the settlement of Eli, north of Ramallah, even though Prime Minister Ehud Olmert vowed publicly after the Annapolis conference that any such building would

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=955968

Expansion via the fvcking surreal.....

Israeli companies are using UK property shows to sell housing in illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank, Guardian Unlimited can reveal.
At the Israel Property Exhibition at Brent town hall, North London last Sunday, one company, Anglo-Saxon Real Estate, was offering for sale properties in Maale Adumim and Maccabim. Both West Bank settlements lie on the Palestinian side of the so-called green line, the pre-1967 boundary and often cited as the border between Israel and a future Palestinian state.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/16/israel

Next - bargain estates on WWW.MUGABE.com

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 9:04pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

they left Gaza (and put in a chocking siege) but continued land grabbing in the West Bank, explain the logic there please

are you for real? they never stopped grabbing land!

2007 -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7136984.stm

2008 -> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/16/israelandthepalestinians.usa

2008 -> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html?_r=1

they did pull out of gaza but they never stopped colonising the westbank

more reading for you here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

and please do backup all your statements with facts an links like me and other respected members here do

dont just sprout nonsense out of your behind

cheerio

You didn’t really read everything I said, did you?

So, once again…
All your links show are intents, plans, talk, threats – not actions, except for the expansion of existing settlements which Israel has a claim for.

Matt Holck · 10-01-2009 9:07pm

I think the physical problem is the use of the bomb WMD
the device is simply too messy

ionix5891 · 10-01-2009 9:08pm

munchester29 wrote: »

You didn’t really read everything I said, did you?

So, once again…
All your links show are intents, plans, talk, threats – not actions, except for the expansion of existing settlements which Israel has a claim for.

see the links from Nodin, specifically the Haaretz an Israeli newspaper quoting their PM

they never stopped building settlements or expanding existing ones, despite the deals they signed

heres another link from few months ago ( 26/08/2008 )

More than 2,600 housing units are under construction in West Bank settlements, including units in more than 1,000 new buildings, Peace Now contends in its semi-annual report.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1015162.html

National Bureau of Statistics data shows that construction in settlements jumped from 240 housing units between January and May 2007 to 433 housing units during the same period this year. Housing and Construction Ministry projects account for 64 percent of all building starts cataloged.
Peace Now reports an increase of 550 percent in the number of tenders for construction in the settlements: 417 housing units compared to just 65 in 2007; 125 new buildings at outposts, including 30 permanent structures.

if Israel wants peace why do they keep colonising what little remains of their land?

and then theres ever growing wall well outside their boundaries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

.

wes · 10-01-2009 9:09pm

munchester29 wrote: »

You didn’t really read everything I said, did you?

So, once again…
All your links show are intents, plans, talk, threats – not actions, except for the expansion of existing settlements which Israel has a claim for.

Under international law there illegal. Also, expansion leads to more land theft. Your denials are nonsensical.

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 9:10pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

ill throw that question right back are you

so are palestinians not supposed to defend themselves?

oh i forgot they are not human

If they are attacked, yes, the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. Problem is, the Palestinians were the ones doing the attacking until Israel started the current operation. Israel was responding to and preventing terrorist activity against its citizens.

ionix5891 wrote: »

after most of their land is taken, the remaining population is living in a giant concentration camp, and they are not getting enough food and medical supplies

if you bothered to read the article linked he commented on the language used in modern newspapers in the US, thats quite in his field of study

The land part is nonsense. Israel left Gaza. Got more rockets in return.
The Palestinians are paying for their violence, and well they should until they end it. Israel can’t be expected not to defend its people.

Nodin · 10-01-2009 9:12pm

munchester29 wrote: »

except for the expansion of existing settlements which Israel has a claim for.

"claim"? It has no legal right to any land outside its borders.

wes · 10-01-2009 9:12pm

munchester29 wrote: »

If they are attacked, yes, the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. Problem is, the Palestinians were the ones doing the attacking until Israel started the current operation. Israel was responding to and preventing terrorist activity against its citizens.

You forget the occupation and the siege. There real acts of aggression. They also regularly attacl the Palestinians. Plenty of links on this thread to show this.

munchester29 wrote: »

The land part is nonsense. Israel left Gaza. Got more rockets in return.
The Palestinians are paying for their violence, and well they should until they end it. Israel can’t be expected not to defend its people.

Israel turned Gaza into a prison and stole more land in the West Bank. These are facts and they are both acts of aggression.

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 9:13pm

Nodin wrote: »

Expansion via the "blind eye"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/807108.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7082629.stm

Expansion via the open eye.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=955968

Expansion via the fvcking surreal.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/16/israel

Next - bargain estates on WWW.MUGABE.com

Nodin, a few replies back I’ve answered Wes about the Israeli expanding existing settlements.
Please have a read.

ionix5891 · 10-01-2009 9:15pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Nodin, a few replies back I’ve answered Wes about the Israeli expanding existing settlements.
Please have a read.

they have no right to be expanding anything outside their borders

munchester29 · 10-01-2009 9:15pm

wes wrote: »

Under international law there illegal. Also, expansion leads to more land theft. Your denials are nonsensical.

Not really. Israel has a good claim to a few settlements that the Palestinian probably consider as theirs.
Such issue can only be settled in negotiations. They won't be settled as long as there is violence.

wes · 10-01-2009 9:16pm

munchester29 wrote: »

Nodin, a few replies back I’ve answered Wes about the Israeli expanding existing settlements.
Please have a read.

No you didn't. You pretended expansion doesn't mean taking more land. That is ridiculous.

You have proven nothing at all.

1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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