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1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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    #1952
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Not really. Israel has a good claim to a few settlements that the Palestinian probably consider as theirs.
    Such issue can only be settled in negotiations. They won't be settled as long as there is violence.

    they have no right to be expanding anything outside their borders


    they already took most of their land (by force) over the last 50 years, here are some nice colored maps for ya (from an Israeli professor)

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/3254028/israels-story-in-maps-English


    .


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    #1953
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    Nodin wrote: »
    "claim"? It has no legal right to any land outside its borders.

    its borders are not agreed upon yet. The best solution would probably be borders based on the 1967 borders, but that hasn't happened yet.


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    #1954
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Nodin, a few replies back I’ve answered Wes about the Israeli expanding existing settlements.

    Yes, you made no sense whatsoever. Israel has no claim on land outside its own borders. Its expanding existing settlements and seeking to get people to move there by advertising them internally and internationally. Thus, its a land grab, as was pointed out to you before.


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    #1955
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    No you didn't. You pretended expansion doesn't mean taking more land. That is ridiculous.

    You have proven nothing at all.

    You might think it's ridiculous, but where ar era ll the stories bout the poor Palestinians who were evicted from their homes in recent years? There aren't any.


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    #1956
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Not really. Israel has a good claim to a few settlements that the Palestinian probably consider as theirs.
    Such issue can only be settled in negotiations. They won't be settled as long as there is violence.

    They are illegal under international law. This is a fact. What the Israeli's think does not change international law.

    The Palestinians are completely right in saying the land is theres, as under international law, it is there land.

    Also, colonialism is a violent process and Israel is simply unwilling to stop it. They need to stop this as well and have never done so.


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    #1957
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    they have no right to be expanding anything outside their borders
    As my comments show, Israel considers some of the settlements as part of Israel, and have a claim to them.

    You might think they have no right, but that is not for you to decide.


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    #1958
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    munchester29 wrote: »
    its borders are not agreed upon yet.

    Its borders were agreed. What you're talking about is redrawing the borders. By moving its population outside its existing borders, taking land for them etc, Israel is acting as the aggressor in seeking to physically seize as much as possible.


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    #1959
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    Nodin wrote: »
    Its borders were agreed. What you're talking about is redrawing the borders. By moving its population outside its existing borders, taking land for them etc, Israel is acting as the aggressor in seeking to physically seize as much as possible.

    Like it or not, the borders will be redrawn in a real peace agreement. Thinking otherwise is naive and not realistic. Check the endings of any land disputes in the past.

    In any case, gotta go now, see you all tomorrow:)


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    #1960
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    You might think it's ridiculous, but where ar era ll the stories bout the poor Palestinians who were evicted from their homes in recent years? There aren't any.

    There are:
    Palestinian couple evicted from home of 50 years as Jerusalem settlers move in


    Under international law, East Jerusalem is occupied and Israel has no right to give this land away, but they went ahead and did so.


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    #1961
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    As my comments show, Israel considers some of the settlements as part of Israel, and have a claim to them.

    You might think they have no right, but that is not for you to decide.

    They have no right under international law.


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    #1962
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    munchester29 wrote: »
    As my comments show, Israel considers some of the settlements as part of Israel, and have a claim to them.

    You might think they have no right, but that is not for you to decide.

    The EU, The UN and the International Court of justice have all called the settlements and the wall illegal

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Supreme_Court_Opinions_on_the_West_Bank_Barrier

    http://domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF/85255e950050831085255e95004fa9c3/3740e39487a5428a85256ecc005e157a!OpenDocument


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    #1963
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    Like it or not, the borders will be redrawn in a real peace agreement. Thinking otherwise is naive and not realistic. Check the endings of any land disputes in the past.

    Under international law they have no right to this land. Hence they are land grabs. This the point several of us are making. You are ignoring this for some odd reason.

    Future negotiations have no bearing on the fact that presently what they are doing is illegal under international law.

    Also, you yourself have said, what may happen in the future doesn't matter, but you have completely changed this position and seem to think what may happen in the future now matters.


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    #1964
    munchester29
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭munchester29


    wes wrote: »
    There are:
    Palestinian couple evicted from home of 50 years as Jerusalem settlers move in


    Under international law, East Jerusalem is occupied and Israel has no right to give this land away, but they went ahead and did so.

    According to your article:

    "The story of the al-Kurd house is long and disputed and involves complicated legal and political battles."

    Long and hard struggle by the Israeli government in court that took a very long time. All that for one house.
    Not really colonialisation at its best.

    Now I really gotta go...


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    #1965
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    munchester29 wrote: »
    You might think it's ridiculous, but where ar era ll the stories bout the poor Palestinians who were evicted from their homes in recent years? There aren't any.

    Dear o dear. A few examples

    http://thenational.ae/article/20080731/FOREIGN/639654697/0/var
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/25/israel.foreignpolicy
    http://www.merip.org/mer/mer225/225_blecher.html
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/unlawful-homes-israeli-settlers-demolitions-palestinians-20080331


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    #1966
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    munchester29 wrote: »
    According to your article:

    "The story of the al-Kurd house is long and disputed and involves complicated legal and political battles."

    Long and hard struggle by the Israeli government in court that took a very long time. All that for one house.
    Not really colonialisation at its best.

    You said there were no evictions. You were completely wrong.

    Also, just because the people who were kicked out managed to drag things out in this one case, doesn't change the fact, it is still colonialism.

    Of course my reply was just to point out you were wrong about evictions.


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    #1967
    MackDeToaster
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    The never-ending thread.

    Here's all I'm seeing, a helluva lot of confimation bias and armchair warriors/judges..

    Wikipedia - In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoids information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.

    Why waste your time nitpicking the rights and wrongs of this particular lot of savages ? There are over 3,000 dead in a drug war in Mexico in the last year, is that any less catastrophic ? Or the 60-70,000 dead in Sri Lanka, the tens of thousands in Columbia ? None of these ever seem to generate such a furore so why is this specific little war of such apparent importance ?

    'Everybody says that the Nazis killed six million Jews, but nobody really kills "six million" of anything. People always die one at a time, each one alone and afraid. - Aaron J. Levitt'

    Every life lost is a tragedy, but if these religious close-minded ****wits want to fight it out over their 'holy' lands then let them at it, it's their business, their choice. I'm sick of listening to them and don't see why I should pick sides. So ask yourself, why are you ?

    This man says it all insofar as I'm concerned..

    http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2001/PaleBlueDot_6-01.html


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    #1968
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    MackDeToaster wrote: »
    Why waste your time nitpicking the rights and wrongs of this particular lot of savages ? There are over 3,000 dead in a drug war in Mexico in the last year, is that any less catastrophic ? Or the 60-70,000 dead in Sri Lanka, the tens of thousands in Columbia ? None of these ever seem to generate such a furore so why is this specific little war of such apparent importance ?

    You could start threads on these topics you know ;).

    I do actually agree with some of what your saying. I have even tried to start topics on other subjects a couple of times, but they got no where, so I gave up.


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    #1969
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wes wrote: »
    You could start threads on these topics you know ;).

    I do actually agree with some of what your saying. I have even tried to start topics on other subjects a couple of times, but they got no where, so I gave up.

    Or it goes arseways. 'why should we care' etc. Annoying, really.


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    #1970
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Nodin wrote: »
    Or it goes arseways. 'why should we care' etc. Annoying, really.

    Yeah, very annoying.


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    #1971
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    munchester29 wrote: »
    As my comments show, Israel considers some of the settlements as part of Israel, and have a claim to them.

    You might think they have no right, but that is not for you to decide.
    Once again for those who for some reason can't understand this even though it has been covered repeatedly. We have covered the legality of the settlements repeatedly in this thread. It is not ambiguous and there's no controversy about it.

    In 2004 the International Court of Justice ruled that ALL settlement in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW. What Israel says means nothing.

    Here, have a read yourself:
    Linky

    As for the expansion of settlements and their expansion:
    Total in West Bank settlements including East Jerusalem (population)
    2003 - 396,988
    2004 - 411,829
    2005 - 426,487
    2006 - 443,702

    It does not matter if existing settlements are being expanded. This of course will necissitate the confiscation of more Palestinian land. How do you suppose they fit all those new people in?

    Irrespective of this, it is illegal under international law to transfer your population into an occupied area.

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND?????????


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    #1972
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    In 2004 the International Court of Justice ruled that ALL settlement in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW. What Israel says means nothing.

    Israel does as it likes and has had a free hand to do so for some time, and IMO international law or any law other than Israeli Law does not matter a bit to Israel. So there is no point in citing rulings or the UN or anything else, except perhaps its ally the US who could do something but just sits on its hands.


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    #1973
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    munchester29 wrote: »
    As my comments show, Israel considers some of the settlements as part of Israel, and have a claim to them.

    You might think they have no right, but that is not for you to decide.

    So whatever Israel makes claim to is right and no one has any business in diagreeing with that? Labensraum what

    Everyone can now see through Israels ''facts on the ground'' policy of building settlements as soon as possible to make it clear it belongs to them.


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    #1974
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Nobody stands up to Israel from the International community that's the problem.


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    #1975
    Matt Holck
    Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Matt Holck


    this reminds me of the air strikes on Iraq
    standard policy of recent wars before entering with ground troops
    saves a lot of invading soldiers
    I don't condone it as a practice

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPXVGQnJm0w


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    #1976
    the_god_swan
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭the_god_swan


    The whole argument of what is right and wrong from a politic point of view is pointless when Israel is involved. As a Atheist I now see that religion is too deep in the minds of the people from the common man to the highest position in the government when it comes to the state of Israel, and this is one of the main reasons Western states stand back and let Israel rape its neighbouring states.

    If you don't believe me a quick google of all the main religious beliefs state Israel as the chosen land; Jew, Christian, Muslin and all of the subsidiary religions that come from these.

    Politicians need to subscribe to a particular religious gang depending on what part of the world they are from. A prime example of all American presidents claiming to be devout Christians, as their is no way they would be voted for otherwise. And America will never stand up to Israel, because whatever president sanctions such a decision will be considered evil in the eyes in the mass ignorant American hill billies. Europe is guilty of this also.

    I now believe that I will never see a secular decision and action from outside states against Israel, because unfortunately religion isn't dying any time soon. And this does really disappoint and sadden me that innocent civilians die while government representatives don't have the balls to go against the grain.

    As long as their is religion their will be the untouchable state of Israel...


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    #1977
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Matt Holck wrote: »
    this reminds me of the air strikes on Iraq
    standard policy of recent wars before entering with ground troops
    saves a lot of invading soldiers
    I don't condone it as a practice


    But practice makes perfect :p

    Anyway I wouldn't worry about it too much, you'll probably never see a war anyway please god.

    Since Gulf War I and then Kosovo people were lulled into thinking that war's could be fought 'clean' and from 35000ft, they can't.

    And while the death toll in Gaza seem's horrendous for the type of operation facing the IDF the death toll is pretty low.

    If the IDF truely didn't care about civilian or their own casualities they could overwhelm Gaza in days. But at the moment I think they're fighting a limited war & god help the poor people of Gaza should the IDF decide to move it up a gear.


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    #1978
    lwellan dowd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭lwellan dowd


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    The EU, The UN and the International Court of justice have all called the settlements and the wall illegal

    Those naughty Israelis upsetting the UN............building a big wall to keep all those nasty suicide bombers out.


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    #1979
    Matt Holck
    Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Matt Holck


    If the rockets were launched from domestic soil,
    there is no way the people would condone the bombing of it's own people


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    #1980
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    lwellan dowd wrote: »
    Those naughty Israelis upsetting the UN............building a big wall to keep all those nasty suicide bombers out.

    Odd that the wall was built on more stolen Palestinian land.

    Why not build the wall on there own land? It would work just as well there. Of course the wall is just another land grab.


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    #1981
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    The EU, The UN and the International Court of justice have all called the settlements and the wall illegal

    Those naughty Israelis upsetting the UN............building a big wall to keep all those nasty suicide bombers out.

    Don't be so selective.
    Israel us/need excuses.

    For Lebanon 2006 it was ''kidnapped soldiesrs''.
    Whatever the reason for a wall, they didnt have to divide communities with it. They also stole even more land with it.


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