1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

IRISH RAIL

Nodin wrote: »

A UN force has been rejected by the US and Israel every time its been mooted,presumably as it would prevent the continued expansion in the rest of the OT.


They did. And the Israelis kept up the blockade and kept on expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

they never stopped the rocket fire try not to post selective news

and for the poster who says I should do a little history reading I suggest you do it yourself then head over to the middle east instead of being an armchair sympathiser with something you know nothing about

m3hm3t

do any of you knows, israel isolated them, there is no flight there, or if you want to bring food there it has to pass from israels control, they are like bunch of ppl living under israel. day by day they are getting killed, and israel building more buildings for there ppl, in 50 years time maybe there will be only 1000 palestinians left. this is fact.

AnimalRights

More here
http://pix.ie/punkrock/album/332139

AnimalRights

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I suggest you do it yourself then head over to the middle east instead of being an armchair sympathiser with something you know nothing about

It wasn't me who threw this at you but this is such a cop out reply, anytime people have a say on a subject in a different country this ole chestnut is used.

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

they never stopped the rocket fire try not to post selective news

They stopped it but the blockade wasn't lifted.

As for selective news - why are they firing rockets in the first place, might I ask?

Serenity Now!

Nodin wrote: »

why are they firing rockets in the first place, might I ask?

Yes. Ask yourself "why?". Why have they been continually firing the rockets in the first place? Regardless of ceasefire conditions, they kept doing it. How can negotiations between two sides occur when they are both constantly jabbing each other?
What followed is no surprise to the people who ordered or allowed this rocket fire across the border all this time to happen. To think that one side is blame-free is wholly naive.

epictetus2009

the posters say siege.. not occupation. Siege suggests palis are holding out and the israelis are trying to get in.

Can anyone unravel in a short summary the current situation, I have read a lot about the previous history and % of lands here and % of lands there which doesnt seem to have any footing in todays discussions.

Right now where is the siege?Location
Do Israel want to encroach on pali lands?yes or no
Is the narrow strip of land on the border the flashpoint for all this from a hamas prespective [previous bombing raids/rockets into gardens aside]?
What exactly do palistine want out of this?
What exactly do israel want out of this?

Frankie Lee

Why do you not see boycotts on israeli goods like happened with apartheid South Africa?

I know a lot of computer components are made there, not sure what else could be boycotted.

epictetus2009

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Yes. Ask yourself "why?". Why have they been continually firing the rockets in the first place? Regardless of ceasefire conditions, they kept doing it. How can negotiations between two sides occur when they are both constantly jabbing each other?
What followed is no surprise to the people who ordered or allowed this rocket fire across the border all this time to happen. To think that one side is blame-free is wholly naive.

faciliation by egypt conflict resolved this and designed the recent peace but it appears from news reports the agreed timeframe for peace had ended. Why not negiotate a longer peace?

blame is illogical at this point unless you can give a more logical statement? Your hitting us with one of those circular arguments. Serenity now is a good title for a book on the celtic tiger.. and its aftermath.

epictetus2009

Also large corps intellectual property is located there also apparently.

They stay because there is no threat internally in Israel and nobody has named them. Oh.. did u see the red dots cross your Screen,,,

They dont go to Palis because this is an internal threat borne deep by US interaction and doctrines.

Boston

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Why do you not see boycotts on israeli goods like happened with apartheid South Africa?

I know a lot of computer components are made there, not sure what else could be boycotted.

Because its not apatheid, it isn't a government turning on its people, its a war between two nations and to boycott one would be to declare for a side.

Frankie Lee

Boston wrote: »

Because its not apatheid, it isn't a government turning on its people, its a war between two nations and to boycott one would be to declare for a side.

A lot of features similar to apartheid.

Lets call Palestine what it is at the moment just autonomous regions similar to what the blacks had in South Africa.

The Palestinians are not really at war when they do not have a country, it is more a struggle against oppression.

You cannot argue that Israel is not a racist state. Granted the palestinians had links with the nazis and there is probably a racist contingent but what Israel does is murder people on racial grounds.

Sorry if my posts aren't making sense my head is in bits.

Boston

Nah, I don't accept any of that. Israeli Arab's aren't treated at all like black south Africans where. Apatheid is a very specific thing.

epictetus2009

Trying to wreck your head more Frankie but use of N--I in debating online evoked godwins law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law


In Australia, a common (if somewhat cynical) variation of Godwin's Law is: "As an internet debate grows longer, the probability of an eventual agreement that Americans suck approaches one." Wikipedia.

Dudess

It's really saddening that people refuse to acknowledge how appallingly Palestinians are treated by the Israelis. That's not an opinion, or an attempt to be "cool" or right-on... it's a fact. Oh and anti-Semitic?! Seriously, whoever considers criticism of Israel's policy on Palestine to be anti-semitism - cop on and grow up! Some people might consider it anti-Zionist. It's not even that! It's simply a criticism of a grossly unjust system.

I can't believe some of the bullsh1t on this thread - "the U.S. is the only country with the balls to speak out against the Palestinians". If you seriously believe that, wake up would you?! To not see that it's in America's interests to get behind Israel, is grossly naive.

And yes, there are some fanatical, hateful Palestinian extremists blowing up small kids. And yes, Israel needs to have a defence strategy in operation... but this does not excuse everyday Israeli treatment of Palestinians - like dogs.

Nodin

Boston wrote: »

Nah, I don't accept any of that. Israeli Arab's aren't treated at all like black south Africans where. Apatheid is a very specific thing.

No, Israeli arabs are treated like second class citizens. It's in the OT where they're treated like black south Africans.

Dudess

To all the people who won't acknowledge Israel's appalling record when it comes to Palestine: put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. Would you be happy with how things are? And don't say you wouldn't go blowing people up because not all Palestinians do that. Just picture yourself as an everyday, ordinary Palestinian who just wants to get on with their life...

WoollyRedHat

dresden8 wrote: »

Ah, the old anti-semitic line.

If Iran, or Serbia, were carrying out airstrikes in civilian areas leading to deaths in the hundreds on a regular basis, the ould carrier battle groups would be warming up for alpha-strikes on an ongoing basis.

But once it's Israel, it's a weak call for restraint, from all sides, then carry on as you are Ehud.

Hating the deaths of hundreds of civilians doesn't make you anti-semitic.

It makes you human.

This. It doesn't matter what country or religion you are. At the end of the day, these are innocent people, who are being killed while nothing is done by the international community.

The world fiddled while Palenstian got bombed.

We can only aspire for peace in the world, and it will only come once there is nothing left I fear.

Edit: People should really look at the amount of vetoes by UN in reguards to attempts of condemning such things. The amount of vetoes by the U.S in relation to it are shocking. Shows how ridicolous the system is at the moment

IRISH RAIL

maybe if the palestinian leaders didnt siphon off the billions in aid they get every year to thier swiss bank accounts and put the money in to thier territory the people wouldnt be in a situation like this.
Israel wanted the ceasefire to continue the relative calm gave thier economy some breathing space. things were looking good the country wasnt seriously affected by the international credit crisis, although hamas allowed a number of rockets each week it as long as people wernt killed Barak was happy to sit idly by, when the ceasefire ended and hamas restarted rocket attacks Israel cannot be expected to sit with its hands under the table. hamas facilitys were attacked with precision not like the indiscriminate rockets from hamas.
now people are sitting in Tel Aviv wondering which one of them will be called for milluim. do you think in the cold evryone wants to be dragged out of bed at 4 in the morning to patrol Gaza or do you think we would rather be in our apartments tucked up in bed ?
Hamas brought this on themselves to those who say but why are hamas firing those rockets
the answer is to wipe Israel off the map not to free thier homeland in 2005 Israel begun disengagement there are no settlements or troops in Gaza no oppressors to fight.
sealing off Gaza is a RETALIATION not an attack.
and even if you gave palestinians f15 jets do you think they would use them No because the pictures they show you of children wounded in car crashes and then claim an Israeli attack or when a hamas rocket misfires its labbeled a tank shell from Israel is worth ten f 15

and besides they would have put the money in thier swiss bank accounts and pleaded poverty

Jesus1222

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Palestinians can elect who they want. But when the people they elect refuse to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, they can't expect things to go entirely swimmingly and accept the obvious reprecussions of that action.

Why should a society suffer collective punishment for taking an entirely legitimate political position on the State of Israel?

This obviously has to be sorted out with an agreement, not by lobbing explosives. However, Hamas and Israel both refuse to sit down and talk meaningfully with each other. Hamas because they don't think Israel should exist in the first place, and Israel because they see no point in negotiating with someone who doesn't acknowledge the existance of the person opposite them at the table.

It's ok to avoid negotiations because of a philosophical point? The IRA and Sinn Féin didn't recognise British rule in NI. They still negotiated. Israel are using something which could and should come at the end of a negotiation process, using it as a precondition, to excuse themselves from coming to an agreement with a people whose necks they are standing on. Why is the fact that Hamas has repeatedly offered 10 year ceasefires and negotiations completely ignored by pro-Israeli apologists?

On the other hand, one will note the very slow but definite progress prior to Hamas' election between Fatah

There was no progress. There was a pointless exercise which will end up like the rest of these processes, with Israel, much like the Unionists did with regular monotony in NI for years, seizing on some minor issue and using it as an excuse not to engage. There was a time when the PLO and Fatah were dismissing in precisely the same way as Hamas are now.

which does acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and the fact that Fatah-controlled West Bank is not really involved in the current unpleasantness. Why is that?

Because Israel and Fatah want the same thing, to be rid of Hamas. Israel wants a compliant, corrupt organisation in charge of what's left of Palestine and not somebody like Hamas. They hate Hamas not because they are "terrorists" or fire rockets, but because Hamas will insist on a fair and equitable solution, in so far as is possible give what's happened during the last 60 or 70 years.

Jesus1222

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

maybe if the palestinian leaders didnt siphon off the billions in aid they get every year to thier swiss bank accounts and put the money in to thier territory the people wouldnt be in a situation like this.

The Palestinian leadership is hopelessly corrupt. I agree. Hamas is not, or at least much less so.

hamas facilitys were attacked with precision not like the indiscriminate rockets from hamas.
now people are sitting in Tel Aviv wondering which one of them will be called for milluim. do you think in the cold evryone wants to be dragged out of bed at 4 in the morning to patrol Gaza or do you think we would rather be in our apartments tucked up in bed ?

It's a massive inconvenience, being called up for action in Gaza. I sympathise.

Hamas brought this on themselves to those who say but why are hamas firing those rockets
the answer is to wipe Israel off the map not to free thier homeland in 2005 Israel begun disengagement there are no settlements or troops in Gaza no oppressors to fight.
sealing off Gaza is a RETALIATION not an attack.

Firing these rockets against Israel is about as fruitful as sailing a boat made of dispirin across an ocean of piss. It's an act of desperation. This is all they have to resist the strangehold Israel still has on Gaza.

vulcan57

There was a cease fire that Hamas withdrew from and immediately started the firing of rockets into Israeli territory. 200 rockets in the 8 days leading up to the Israeli attacks, all aimed at CIVILLIAN centres with a 'fire and hope for the worst' attitude. As usual the murdering terrorists that are Hamas specifically target civillians, unlike the Israelis, who have specifically targeted Hamas securty centres and offices, even they admit that all police stations have been destroyed. It is so sad that so many civillians have been killed in the attacks, but they are the same civillians that democratically voted in the terrorists to run their country and are now unfortunately paying the price! This whole situation has been brought on by the actions of Hamas! Even the Egyptions were furious with them for pulling out of the cease fire, the Palistinian president himself has said that Hamas could have avoided these attacks. This is not action against the Palistinian people otherwise they would be attacking the West Bank aswell, its an attack on Hamas who taunt and murder innocent Israelis, they were warned if the rockets didn't stop they would take action. Poke a man with a stick long enough and he will take action to stop you!

Manic Moran

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Why should a society suffer collective punishment for taking an entirely legitimate political position on the State of Israel?

Because electing Hamas and its legitimate political position was a collective act to begin with? Ever since the election, it's a national position, with national reprecussions.

It's ok to avoid negotiations because of a philosophical point? The IRA and Sinn Féin didn't recognise British rule in NI. They still negotiated.

They at least acknowedged Her Majesty's Government as a legitimate entity to negotiate with. It's fine for Hamas to not recognise Israeli legitimacy in the Gaza Strip. That would be a similar analogy to the above. SF never had a position that the UK should not exist. Israel exists. The Israeli government exists. Until it is accepted that they are not a bad dream which will one day vanish, meaningful negotiations cannot start. I might as well strike a deal with Harvey the invisible rabbit for all the meaning that gives.

Why is the fact that Hamas has repeatedly offered 10 year ceasefires and negotiations completely ignored by pro-Israeli apologists?

Negotiations with whom? A construct which their goal is to not exist?

There was no progress.

Just over a decade ago there was no recognised Palestinian government, judicial structure, independent police force, or proposed Constitution which was acknowledged by Israel. Everything was under Israeli control.

Those accomplishments in those directions aren't progress?

NTM

Nodin

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

maybe if the palestinian leaders didnt siphon off the billions in aid they get every year to thier swiss bank accounts and put the money in to thier territory the people wouldnt be in a situation like this.

Whats that got to do with the semi-apartheid treatment of Palestinians in the OT and the building of settlements?

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Israel wanted the ceasefire to continue the relative calm gave thier economy some breathing space. things were looking good the country wasnt seriously affected by the international credit crisis, although hamas allowed a number of rockets each week it as long as people wernt killed Barak was happy to sit idly by, .

.....until he saw where Likud was in the polls.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

when the ceasefire ended and hamas restarted rocket attacks Israel cannot be expected to sit with its hands under the table. hamas facilitys were attacked with precision .

...if you consider blowing up every building associated with Hamas with the resultant civillian casualties "precision". The rest of us beg to differ.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

the answer is to wipe Israel off the map not to free thier homeland in 2005 Israel begun disengagement there are no settlements or troops in Gaza no oppressors to fight. .

They pulled out of Gaza to concentrate on grabbing as much of the rest of the OT as possible. They control the water, fuel, the lot, and the Egyptians are paid to keep their end sealed tight by the Americans. It wasn't a charitable gesture, particularily as they'd no business in the place anyway.

vulcan57 wrote:

unlike the Israelis.

Given the number of dead Arab civillians over the last 40 years, I find that hard to imagine.

Mr.Micro

The Palestinians should get shot of Hamas because Hamas have their own agenda and its certainly not peaceful or diplomatic. Israel should be condemned for its inappropriate response to Hamas. As usual it is over the top and probably far too excessive than needs be. The world turned a blind eye when Israel invaded Lebanon in recent years and destroyed roads, infrastructure, buildings to reduce the country to stone age, warcrimes by defintion I do believe. It seems one Israeli leader after another is hell bent to continue the destruction and outdo the previous leader. Its got to stop.

IRISH RAIL

Nodin wrote: »

Whats that got to do with the semi-apartheid treatment of Palestinians in the OT and the building of settlements?

maybe if they saw what a decent way of life would be like they might like peace

.....until he saw where Likud was in the polls.

Barak was always one for restraint


...if you consider blowing up every building associated with Hamas with the resultant civillian casualties "precision". The rest of us beg to differ.

no the rest of us dont when terrorists aim at playgrounds you sympathise with them I dont
when a people protect themselves by firing a missile at a car filled with rocket launchers it means my friends in Sderot can sleep safely for another few minuites
you on the other hand have that pleasure all the time

They pulled out of Gaza to concentrate on grabbing as much of the rest of the OT as possible. They control the water, fuel, the lot, and the Egyptians are paid to keep their end sealed tight by the Americans. It wasn't a charitable gesture, particularily as they'd no business in the place anyway.

eygpt dont want terrorists running about on thier country thats why they close thier crossing that point is as good in conspiricy thories as in politics forums

Given the number of dead Arab civillians over the last 40 years, I find that hard to imagine.

most have brought that on themselves
Imagine for a moment that finnna fail have put quassams in your back garden to launch at the north
would you be happy ?
would you expect the uk to sit idly by and let this hapen ?
would you vote for fianna fail again ?
I think the answer to all 3 is no
ps I dont like comparing situations in Ireland with the middle east its not very productive or balanced that was a hypothetical situation I think most people in gaza are in why if they were democraticly elected did they put anyone from fatah who lives there in prision ?

AnimalRights

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

most have brought that on themselves
Imagine for a moment that finnna fail have put quassams in your back garden to launch at the north
would you be happy ?
would you expect the uk to sit idly by and let this hapen ?
would you vote for fianna fail again ?
I think the answer to all 3 is no
ps I dont like comparing situations in Ireland with the middle east its not very productive or balanced that was a hypothetical situation I think most people in gaza are in why if they were democraticly elected did they put anyone from fatah who lives there in prision ?

Collective punishment again eh....?
Finanna Fail would only put them in if they had their land occupied and faced harrasment and humiliation each day.....actually did this not basically already happen.
FF went on to become the most successful party in Irish politics.
and as for the prison issue did Fatah not do the same to the Hamas supporters in the West Bank. :rolleyes:

The Saint

Manic Moran wrote: »

Because electing Hamas and its legitimate political position was a collective act to begin with? Ever since the election, it's a national position, with national reprecussions.

Well punishing a populatioin for the actions of their government is a war crime. I presume you're not justifying war crimes because if you are I presume you believe US citizens are legitmate targets after the US invasion of Iraq since they voted for Bush. Collective punishment of a civilian population is against international law.

Manic Moran wrote: »

They at least acknowedged Her Majesty's Government as a legitimate entity to negotiate with. It's fine for Hamas to not recognise Israeli legitimacy in the Gaza Strip. That would be a similar analogy to the above. SF never had a position that the UK should not exist. Israel exists. The Israeli government exists. Until it is accepted that they are not a bad dream which will one day vanish, meaningful negotiations cannot start. I might as well strike a deal with Harvey the invisible rabbit for all the meaning that gives.

The PLO didn't recognise Israels right to exist before they went into negotiations so I don't know why it is now a precondition for Hamas. Hamas have also stated that they won't recognise Israel as they don't know where the borders of Israel are and where they are percieved to be by the Isrealis as they certainly not along the June 1967 borders. Israel also do not recognise a Palestinian state or its right to exist within international legal borders. Why is it a precondition for one and not the other?

Manic Moran wrote: »

Negotiations with whom? A construct which their goal is to not exist?

Well they did it with the PLO as I've stated above. And while Hamas might state its non-recognition of Israel, Israel take tangiable actions making creation of a viable Palestinian state less likely through its actions and policies. Words are pretty meaningless compared to facts on the ground that are being created.

Jesus1222

Manic Moran wrote: »

Because electing Hamas and its legitimate political position was a collective act to begin with? Ever since the election, it's a national position, with national reprecussions.

Collective punishment isn't acceptable. It's a crime.

They at least acknowedged Her Majesty's Government as a legitimate entity to negotiate with.

Hamas has offered to negotiate with Israel. The act of ceasefire and negotiation implies a certain level of recognition. What you are saying here is merely repeating a smokescreen argument. There's no logic to it whatsoever. Should Hamas refuse to negotiate with Israel because they refuse to accept the result of the election? Recognise Hamas as elected leaders?

Here.

From 2001:

"We hope the Europeans will become aware of the concept of hudna, and that it can become a substitute for recognition of Israel.....Debate about a political nation's right to exist seems infantile. Israel is a state now, it is part of the UN, it is de facto there, and we deal with it every day."

"Mr Yousef and Said Abu Musameh, a former Hamas leader and now a member of the Palestinian national assembly, said the ceasefire proposal, first put forward a decade ago by the late Hamas leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, would be a de facto recognition of Israel. A period of peace could create the environment for later negotiations on a full Middle East peace deal.

...Israel will reject any such ceasefire proposal unless accompanied by formal recognition."

It's fine for Hamas to not recognise Israeli legitimacy in the Gaza Strip. That would be a similar analogy to the above. SF never had a position that the UK should not exist. Israel exists. The Israeli government exists. Until it is accepted that they are not a bad dream which will one day vanish, meaningful negotiations cannot start.

This is just propaganda. Negotiations CAN start. Israel refuses to do so.

Just over a decade ago there was no recognised Palestinian government, judicial structure, independent police force, or proposed Constitution which was acknowledged by Israel. Everything was under Israeli control.

Those accomplishments in those directions aren't progress?

Palestinians are now officially recognised as the governors of their own prison. The progress is minor and countered by increasing problems in other more important areas. The removal, not expansion, of West Bank settlements and beginning of detachment of the West Bank would be progress. Strengthening Israel's hold and the position of the corrupt PLO on the West Bank is progress for Israel. Which brings us to the reason Hamas are and have been targetted since they were elected...

Israel believes the PLO will accept Israel as it is now, including settlements, hijacking the West Bank's resources, the division of Palestinian lands into holding pens. They know Hamas will not. So Hamas has to go. Right-wing Israelis see those rockets and thank God that they are dealing with such stupid enemies.

Besides all that, Abbas himself has said there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever on any issue with Israel.

cozmik

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its got to stop.

It seems to me neither side is capable of ending the conflict.