1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

The Saint · 13-01-2009 12:52am

darrenh wrote: »

I know very little about the hole history of the middle east. I have glanced at the history of Jews and it appears they have been run out of everywhere they have been other than the US. My question is honest and not meant to be provocative but... Why are Jews not liked?

Unfortunately when things go bad in countries the powers that be tend to find a scapegoat to deflect attantion from their own faults. Unfortuntely the Jews have been these scapegoats on numerous occasions. When people become worse off they tend to focus on those who are different. People will also focus on those who are better off than themselves and the Jews often fitted both these criteria. I suppose when a prejudice begins it can be drawn on again and again and has a compounding effect. It's very very unfortunate.

wes · 13-01-2009 12:52am

TOMASJ wrote: »

The pro Israeli guys on there made right twits of themselves

Yeah, they were really bad. The guy even threw out some pretty racist comments towards Palestinians near the end and the guy turned it into a shouting match.

nuttz · 13-01-2009 12:56am

wes wrote: »

Yeah, they were really bad. The guy even threw out some pretty racist comments towards Palestinians near the end and the guy turned it into a shouting match.

The pro Israel UCD lecturer was Tom Cooney I think, and google tells me it wasn't the first time he had a red face on TV

wes · 13-01-2009 12:59am

nuttz wrote: »

The pro Israel UCD lecturer was Tom Cooney I think, and google tells me it wasn't the first time he had a red face on TV

He did his side a great dis-service. Half the pro-Israel posters here would have done a better job imho. He made his side look really really bad.

darrenh · 13-01-2009 1:11am

wes wrote: »

People hate those who are different.

Look at slavery of black people for instance. Look at the Turkish attempt to wipe out the Armenians. The genocide of the Native Americans. Look at the treatment of the Roma even.

People hate anything they find different sadly.

That makes absolutely no sense. We are all different and we all don't hate each other. It seems to be deeper than that. There appears to be longstanding (over 3000 years) worldwide hatred of the Jews.

Lemming · 13-01-2009 1:20am

darrenh wrote: »

That makes absolutely no sense. We are all different and we all don't hate each other. It seems to be deeper than that. There appears to be longstanding (over 3000 years) worldwide hatred of the Jews.

Sorry but it's not [deeper than that]. Anecdotally, the Jewish community has done well for itself commercially over the ages. People envy success. To put a more modern perspective on "The Merchant of Venice", I recall hearing an anecdote that whilst I cannot source it, I can well see how it could be true or at least based on truth in part. As I recall it, Hitler returned from the trenches of WW1 and saw the wealth with which the Jewish community were living and envied them, covetted that wealth. His mind warped to blame them for every perceived ill of society.

Where am I going with this? Human nature can lead to very dark places when you're on the outside looking in. I see no reason why the Jewish community have somehow got a monopoly on religious persecution/hatred and suffering. I would call it an insult to history and would question the motive of anyone who would put forward such a case.

African americans suffered brutally for a over a hundred years at the hands of the US, and the treatment of Africa by the then European super-powers wasn't much kinder. Kenghis Khan raped and pillaged much of Asia. The British treated the Irish with brutality for 800 years. Lenin & Stalin killed millions of their own. Well in excess of 6 million. Why single out the Jewish community as being somehow more deserving? They're not. They're different to someone else and in someone's eyes, that's enough to hate.

But back to what you said, or the attitude you portrayed at any rate. Does any perceived ill treatment justify carte-blanche behaviour today? Does being a victim once upon a time justify your bullying someone else today? I would hope, for the future of this planet and our race, that any sane person would think not.

youcrazyjesus! · 13-01-2009 1:24am

nuttz wrote: »

The pro Israel UCD lecturer was Tom Cooney I think, and google tells me it wasn't the first time he had a red face on TV

He slandered Robert Fisk on McWilliams' show a couple of years ago, with a disgraceful claim of "blood libel". Fisk demanded McWilliams not stand over the comment and he got McWilliams to state that he wasn't standing over it. Fisk was quite rightly furious.

Cooney and others devalue the allegation of anti-Semitism by making stupid claims of it against top class journalists imo. They are idiots for doing things like that. Of course Ian O'Doherty (I've never seen this p**** on a TV show, commenting, is he not quick witted enough or what?) chimed in from behind his keyboard sneering at Fisk for getting angry while using a formula of words to not quite accuse Fisk of the same thing. Yet Ian O'Doherty made vague comments about libel when his name was mentioned on a few message boards.

wes · 13-01-2009 1:24am

darrenh wrote: »

That makes absolutely no sense. We are all different and we all don't hate each other. It seems to be deeper than that. There appears to be longstanding (over 3000 years) worldwide hatred of the Jews.

Well, I disagree. There are many examples of people hating each other and I gave examples. People will kill each other for many reasons, but the main one imho, is that we tend to hate those who are different.

It's sadly very common, from Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfur we see people try to wipe each other out again and again.

horseflesh · 13-01-2009 1:25am

darrenh wrote: »

That makes absolutely no sense. We are all different and we all don't hate each other. It seems to be deeper than that. There appears to be longstanding (over 3000 years) worldwide hatred of the Jews.

They killed Jesus.

darrenh · 13-01-2009 1:25am

The Saint wrote: »

Unfortunately when things go bad in countries the powers that be tend to find a scapegoat to deflect attantion from their own faults. Unfortuntely the Jews have been these scapegoats on numerous occasions. When people become worse off they tend to focus on those who are different. People will also focus on those who are better off than themselves and the Jews often fitted both these criteria. I suppose when a prejudice begins it can be drawn on again and again and has a compounding effect. It's very very unfortunate.

Whats this thing about them being different. There are 1000's of different cultures and they all don't hate each other cause they're different. Why are they better off. Why do such a small group of people control so many high positions in politics, business, banks and media in the US. My very basic knowledge of history tells me before WW2 they controlled a lot of these things too in Europe. Why did the spanish kick them out in the 1400's. My dear sweet grandmother who i've never heard say anything bad in all my life has no liking for them either. She said as a child she remembers them having everything and holding it all for themselves. Surely this breeds resentment?

The Saint · 13-01-2009 1:30am

darrenh wrote: »

Whats this thing about them being different. There are 1000's of different cultures and they all don't hate each other cause they're different. Why are they better off. Why do such a small group of people control so many high positions in politics, business, banks and media in the US. My very basic knowledge of history tells me before WW2 they controlled a lot of these things too in Europe. Why did the spanish kick them out in the 1400's. My dear sweet grandmother who i've never heard say anything bad in all my life has no liking for them either. She said as a child she remembers them having everything and holding it all for themselves. Surely this breeds resentment?

Well most of this is not relevant to the thread. There are a lot of myths about the Jews which are untrue however these get spread and people looking for a scapegoat believe them. I'm not going to go through everything on it. The Catholic Church also has a lot to answer for in regard to the spread of anti-semitism. If you want to discuss this I advise you open another thread as it is irrelivant to the topic.

Lemming · 13-01-2009 1:31am

darrenh wrote: »

There are 1000's of different cultures and they all don't hate each other cause they're different.

History is littered with places, dates, and names that would suggest very much otherwise.

Why are they better off. Why do such a small group of people control so many high positions in politics, business, banks and media in the US. My very basic knowledge of history tells me before WW2 they controlled a lot of these things too in Europe. Why did the spanish kick them out in the 1400's. My dear sweet grandmother who i've never heard say anything bad in all my life has no liking for them either. She said as a child she remembers them having everything and holding it all for themselves. Surely this breeds resentment?

And that's enough to mark them as different from the next group however true/untrue/urban myth it may be. Cycle of hatred, rinse. Repeat. rinse. repeat.

darrenh · 13-01-2009 1:37am

wes wrote: »

Well, I disagree. There are many examples of people hating each other and I gave examples. People will kill each other for many reasons, but the main one IMHO, is that we tend go hate those who are different.

It's sadly very common, from Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfur we see people try to wipe each other out again and again.

Yes of course people who are different disagree and try and wipe each other out. But in fairness they are one of the least liked groups of people in the world. The majority of the eastern world dislike them. They have no great friends in Europe even after all the horrible things that happened to them in WW2. Most of the African countries dislike them. They are only liked among themselves in the US. Whatever it is that is different obviously pisses a lot of people off. Again I must say I know very little about the whole thing but it sure does confuse me.

wes · 13-01-2009 1:43am

darrenh wrote: »

Yes of course people who are different disagree and try and wipe each other out. But in fairness they are one of the least liked groups of people in the world. The majority of the eastern world dislike them.

In the east, there is the Arab/Israeli conflict and both sides really do hate each other. In that case, its very much a 2 way street.

darrenh wrote: »

They have no great friends in Europe even after all the horrible things that happened to them in WW2. Most of the African countries dislike them. They are only liked among themselves in the US. Whatever it is that is different obviously pisses a lot of people off. Again I must say I know very little about the whole thing but it sure does confuse me.

Yeah, your right Jews are hated by a lot of people. There not the only group. The Roma are hated all over Europe. The Nazi's even sent them to concentration camps as well during the Holocaust.

See the sad thing is that this kind of hatred is actually way more common.

darrenh · 13-01-2009 1:53am

Lemming wrote: »

And that's enough to mark them as different from the next group however true/untrue/urban myth it may be. Cycle of hatred, rinse. Repeat. rinse. repeat.

Israel now appear then to be continuing on your "cycle of hatred". All war is wrong and both sides are to blame but the level of aggression in my opinion by Israel in Gaza is wrong.

Matt Holck · 13-01-2009 6:34am

Following the Battle of Gaza in June of 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank, replaced by rival Fatah members and independents in an action that many Palestinians and other experts considered illegal.[15][16] On 18 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

am I up to date on who is/was in power in Gaza?

Seems Israel could have had some Palestine government support from Fatah,
the opposition to Hamas
as Humas is credited for firing random rockets into southern Israel.

I figure Fatah might be embarrassed in it's inability to stop the rocket launches

Manic Moran · 13-01-2009 8:07am

Matt Holck wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

am I up to date on who is/was in power in Gaza?

Seems Israel could have had some Palestine government support from Fatah,
the opposition to Hamas
as Humas is credited for firing random rockets into southern Israel.

I figure Fatah might be embarrassed in it's inability to stop the rocket launches

No, you're mis-reading the article. Hamas still has the majority of elected seats, it's only the militia and executive positions that got outlawed. The Hamas people were only kicked out of the government in the West Bank as a response to the goings-on in Gaza, they still control (Nominally, at least) the Gaza Strip. West bank (Fatah control) is fairly quiet.

NTM

Matt Holck · 13-01-2009 8:27am

The West Bank seems to have their hands full trying to keeps it's people from rallying support for Gaza

"They worry that if we demonstrate in support for Gaza, we will attack the PA and they are afraid of that."

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200916123826263533.html

Manic Moran · 13-01-2009 9:04am

The West Bank seems to have their hands full trying to keeps it's people from rallying support for Gaza
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3654101,00.html

Again, you seem to have misunderstood what you read.

The article is saying that despite a Hamas effort at trying to embark upon a wave of sympathy for the Gaza Strip, not much is happening: More Fatah supporters have been arrested than Hamas.

[Edit: I see you have now linked to a different article]

NTM

Matt Holck · 13-01-2009 9:11am

I'm trying to figure out if the West Bank could help this situation

MackDeToaster · 13-01-2009 11:15am

Well considering Hamas and Fatah slaughtered each other several years ago I doubt it..

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_factional_violence

An estimated 600 Palestinians were killed in those fights and Fatah have been claiming that in the current conflict supporters in Gaza are being summarily executed by Hamas, shot in the legs etc.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053825.html

(waits for the denunciations of that last link, even though she is critical of Israel :pac:).

marco murphy · 13-01-2009 1:33pm

Matt Holck wrote: »

I'm trying to figure out if the West Bank could help this situation

Hopefully it will unite. But Fatah is being payed by Israel and the US.

nobber · 13-01-2009 3:32pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

if the british bombed dublin tomorrow and we had the ability to strike back with force we would and we would be right

if we attacked england tomorrow the british would retaliate with extreme force to protect their people and they would be right

the israeli government is there to protect israelis and while i dont think they are doing a good job they have an immensely difficult situation on their hands

the palestinian government either needs to ask for help to get rid of the terrorists or it needs to get rid of them themselves if they dont then you have to wonder why they dont?

i think neither side is right here and its very easy for us to sit here thousands of miles away and judge peoples decisions when rockets are being fired in both directions

Dont have a problem with a country protecting its people, it has every right to. however israel seems to be trying to do the equivilent of killing a fly with an M16. might hit it, might not, but the collateral damage is pretty catastrophic. they are showing complete disregard for life. i know hamas are aswell but to be fair they couldnt even dream of having the american firepower that israel have and that israel seem to be useing illegaly.

uprising · 13-01-2009 4:42pm

Been too busy lately to get involved here as much as I'd like to.
Sad to see after all this carnage, theres still people who think its the "RIGHT" thing to do. Beyond belief really.

Manic Moran · 13-01-2009 4:46pm

nobber wrote: »

israel seems to be trying to do the equivilent of killing a fly with an M16

Would it be a bad thing if I said I'd done that?

(Damned if I know if I hit it, but it wasn't there any more afterwards...)

NTM

turgon · 13-01-2009 4:52pm

uprising wrote: »

Been too busy lately to get involved here as much as I'd like to.

Dont worry it seems to have been all rational and reasoned debate, and no passionate photos of dead bodies, so you wouldnt have liked it anyway.

I heard Hamas say they want 3 things, I think they were:
*End of the current fighting
*End of the blockade
*Deployment of an International force at some points on the border.

They all seem reasonable to me?

PeakOutput · 13-01-2009 8:22pm

nobber wrote: »

might hit it, might not, but the collateral damage is pretty catastrophic.

total deaths are at what? around 1000? the un is estimating that civilian casualties is 1 in 4 so they hit alot more than they dont. also for the umpteenth time hamas deliberately use their civilian population as shields in numerous ways

they are showing complete disregard for life.

by flyering areas hours before attacks to warn civilians to leave the area before it happens? by using targetted strikes against hamas targets?

i know hamas are aswell but to be fair they couldnt even dream of having the american firepower that israel have

the proportionality argument is a non starter its not the size of the gun that matters its why you are using it

and that israel seem to be useing illegaly.

feel free to elaborate with cited sources

PeakOutput · 13-01-2009 8:25pm

turgon wrote: »

Dont worry it seems to have been all rational and reasoned debate, and no passionate photos of dead bodies, so you wouldnt have liked it anyway.

I heard Hamas say they want 3 things, I think they were:
*End of the current fighting
*End of the blockade
*Deployment of an International force at some points on the border.

They all seem reasonable to me?

are you sure thats not what israel said it wanted or at least israel said the same things besides possibly the end of the blockade in so many words

apparently hamas said today they wont enter into peace talks because they dont want egypt writing up the terms of a cease fire didnt hear much detail about it other than that though

Nodin · 13-01-2009 9:03pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing if I said I'd done that?

As long as it didn't solve the over-staffing problem at the same time.....

Lemming · 13-01-2009 9:12pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing if I said I'd done that?

(Damned if I know if I hit it, but it wasn't there any more afterwards...)

NTM

I'm sure you took due diligence to be aware of what was in front of, around, and behind the fly though MM (as any firearms user is supposed to, much less a supposedly trained soldier) ?

edit: that "supposedly" remark isn't aimed at you MM, more that a soldier would - at a guess - have greater firearms training than your average firearms user thus underscoring the question.

1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

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