1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

Mr.Micro

Quote IRISH RAIL

also what would people consider a proportionate responce?
would it be ok for Israel to fire an equal number of rockets back ?

Perhaps if Israel had responded in kind then there would not have been such enormous casualties amongst the Palestinian people, with over 1000 dead already.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828884.stm

Jack Bauer999

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Its easy if you have been there first hand. witnessing grads coming down in playgrounds, and having 15 seconds to find shelter dozens of times every day. also if you were educated on the subject and didnt get sucked into Hamas propoganda like other posters here.

also what would people consider a proportionate responce?
would it be ok for Israel to fire an equal number of rockets back ?

This 'war' is its a major PR disaster for Israel,
Images of Palestinian bodies are being displayed all around the world causing repulsion in every single country, hundreds of thousands of people protesting,

Israel's image of being trying to be legitimate, civilised country surrounded by hate filled arab extremists has been ripped to shreds. The rest of the world has finally realised that they are worse than the likes of Hamas.

In the end they are not going to destroy Hamas, and the worst thing is, this is going to fuel more extremism and turn more people towards the likes of Hamas.

IRISH RAIL

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Quote IRISH RAIL



Perhaps if Israel had responded in kind then there would not have been such enormous casualties amongst the Palestinian people, with over 1000 dead already.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828884.stm

ok are you sure about that ?
say for every rocket hamas fired israel responded with an equal type.
given the population density of say Gaza city or Khan Younis do you really think there would be less than 1000 people dead?

The Saint

Bolivia cuts ties with Israel, seeks genocide charges against Israeli officials

Bolivian President Evo Morales said on Wednesday that his country is breaking diplomatic ties with Israel over its 19-day-old campaign in Gaza, and said he will ask the International Criminal Court to bring genocide charges against top Israeli officials.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055502.html

Manic Moran

Darragh29 wrote: »

A guy getting out a prayer shawl to pray to his God on top of a f*cking tank.

What's wrong with that? My Battle-Buddy in tank School was a muslim from Senegal. He'd routinely pray to Mecca in the field. There are reports of Arabic soldiers actually stopping fighting at prayer time, though the Koran does allow for a postponement in prayer if circumstances dictate it. Similarly, you can find photos of Christian worship on military vehicles: The hood of a jeep makes a great Altar, for example.


Nowhere is it written that you have to put your religious practices on hold in the military. And it's certainly not as bad as putting weapons inside a mosque. 14.5mm AA cannon found inside one a couple of days ago, apparently.

NTM

PeakOutput

Mr.Micro wrote: »

No I do'nt think people have said that, its the disproportionate response and the weapons it uses thats the real concern.

the question has been asked numerous times and never answered. how many israeli citizens should israel have allowed to die before they entered gaza to stop the people killing them? answer the question please.

Shelka wrote: »

How can people come on here and call what Isreal is doing 'protecting'?
They are not retaliating because of terrorist attacks on Isreal. They are tearing gaza apart, because they think the territory is rightfully theirs. Palenstine hasn't got a chance against them and they are well aware of that.

sorry you obviously have not been paying much attention. this most recent problem in the middle east is as a result of terrorists attacking israel over and over again. israel pulled out of gaza and the west bank, what was it?, 3 years ago?

CK.1 wrote: »

I can't believe Irish people can sympathise with what Israel are doing given the history of our country. I wish I could deport the lot of you to Israel.

what has happened in this country is the exact reason that irish people find it hard to be objective on the situation when the reality is that what happened in the north is / was a completely different situation to what is happening in gaza accept that terrorists were involved in both.

CK.1 wrote: »

Sickening. I hope those responsible pay the price for this, in this life, or the next.

its the belief in the next life that is causing all the problems in the first place. there would be no suicide bombers if there was no virgins waiting for them. there would be no jew v muslim if there was no religon they would simply be people from israel / gaza religon is the problem and it certainly wont be the solution

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Perhaps if Israel had responded in kind then there would not have been such enormous casualties amongst the Palestinian people, with over 1000 dead already.

ok so firstly, of those 1000 dead 750 are non civilians

secondly do you believe that less than 20 civilians would have been killed if israel had of launched 8000 rockets into gaza? do you really believe that?

Bolivian President Evo Morales said on Wednesday that his country is breaking diplomatic ties with Israel over its 19-day-old campaign in Gaza, and said he will ask the International Criminal Court to bring genocide charges against top Israeli officials.

laughable to be honest it actually makes a mockery of people who have actually been subjected to genocide in my opinion

Run_to_da_hills

Casualties have now exceeded the 1000th mark in Gaza with only 13 Israelis killed (Three of them killed with friendly fire).

315 Innocent Children
76 Women
619 Men.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828884.stm

PeakOutput

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Casualties have now exceeded the 1000th mark in Gaza with only 13 Israelis killed (Three of them killed with friendly fire).

315 Innocent Children
76 Women
619 Men.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828884.stm

ok lets assume that the figures are correct. do you believe that all of those men who were killed are civilians?

Ruskie4Rent

PeakOutput wrote: »

laughable to be honest it actually makes a mockery of people who have actually been subjected to genocide in my opinion

How does it make a mockery of them? Needless death is needless death.

PeakOutput

Ruskie4Rent wrote: »

How does it make a mockery of them? Needless death is needless death.

i believe it makes light of the past genocides and attempted genocides (rowanda, sarejavo) needless death is needless death yes but up to 500 civilian casualties does not a genocide make. the moment i see israel premediatingly{sp??} and deliberately attacking civilians my opinion will change instantly. this has simply not happened

Run_to_da_hills

PeakOutput wrote: »

ok lets assume that the figures are correct. do you believe that all of those men who were killed are civilians?

No I don't but the women and Children are.

Many of those so called Hamas men were innocent police officers and civil servants who unfortunately became attached to Hamas when they took power. It would be like the British Army annihilating the Gardai and those working in the Irish civil service over Provisional IRA atrocities.

If just 300 of those killed were Hamas. 700 innocent lives is totally out of order. Israel should be tried for war crimes against humanity.

PeakOutput

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No I don't but the women and Children are.

ok so how many do you believe are? and i feel you are being kind assuming women cannot be combatants but i accept those 76 are civilians for the sake of argument

It would be like the British Army annihilating the Gardai and those working in the Irish civil service over Provisional IRA atrocities.

eh thats a ridicolous comparison. are you saying the gardai worked for the ira? because anyone who worked for hamas worked for a terrorist organisation which preached a doctrine of hate. edit; also we did not elect a terrorist organistion to government. im not saying that all of them were not innocent or just working for them out of circumstance or because they were forced to im just saying that your comparison is stupid as is any comparison between the middle east right now and the troubles in ireland. i dont believe that the people enforcing hamas law and helping them with their policies etc are innocent just because they did not light the fuse on a rocket.

If just 300 of those killed were Hamas. 700 innocent lives is totally out of order. Israel should be tried for war crimes against humanity.

even the palestinian / hamas government is only claiming around 50% civilian casualties so who are you to say that you know better them (those with the most to gain from high civilian deaths)

stainluss

PeakOutput wrote: »

if the british bombed dublin tomorrow and we had the ability to strike back with force we would and we would be right

if we attacked england tomorrow the british would retaliate with extreme force to protect their people and they would be right

the israeli government is there to protect israelis and while i dont think they are doing a good job they have an immensely difficult situation on their hands

the palestinian government either needs to ask for help to get rid of the terrorists or it needs to get rid of them themselves if they dont then you have to wonder why they dont?

i think neither side is right here and its very easy for us to sit here thousands of miles away and judge peoples decisions when rockets are being fired in both directions

here, here! the way i see it, one person killed for a stupid reason is as bad a 400!they just need to stop killing each other. Theres no point focusing of numbers or ratios. people are dying on both sides and the world needs to step in and stop this once and for all. Look how far Ireland and the UK or India and Pakistan have come

youcrazyjesus!

PeakOutput wrote: »

ok lets assume that the figures are correct. do you believe that all of those men who were killed are civilians?

Eh what about the 400 women and children?

knackerwacker

There would be less colateral damage if Hamas didnt use civilians for human sheilds to fire rockets from from. There is no nation (other then France) that would tollerate terrorists firing rockets at them from across the boarder, intentionally targeting civilians. Hamas needs to stop the indiscriminate killing, or the only place they will speak arabic will be in hell.

youcrazyjesus!

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Its easy if you have been there first hand. witnessing grads coming down in playgrounds, and having 15 seconds to find shelter dozens of times every day. also if you were educated on the subject and didnt get sucked into Hamas propoganda like other posters here.

also what would people consider a proportionate responce?
would it be ok for Israel to fire an equal number of rockets back ?

They already did, they lobbed hundreds (source: Guardian) of shells into Gaza over a period, they killed dozens of innocents. This was long before last month.

youcrazyjesus!

knackerwacker wrote: »

There would be less colateral damage if Hamas didnt use civilians for human sheilds to fire rockets from from. There is no nation (other then France) that would tollerate terrorists firing rockets at them from across the boarder, intentionally targeting civilians. Hamas needs to stop the indiscriminate killing, or the only place they will speak arabic will be in hell.

Sources for these claims please?

Stop reeling off Israeli Foreign Minister propaganda statements, it does your side no favours. A significant claim of this by Israel (the UNHCR school attack) was withdrawn. There is no evidence. Israel is killing indiscriminately, 400 women and children are dead.

BlaasForRafa

PeakOutput wrote: »

even the palestinian / hamas government is only claiming around 50% civilian casualties so who are you to say that you know better them (those with the most to gain from high civilian deaths)

Hamas are notorious for over-estimating the number of civilian casualties, see the "battle" of Jenin for an apposite example of that.

GuanYin

PeakOutput wrote: »

eh thats a ridicolous comparison. are you saying the gardai worked for the ira? because anyone who worked for hamas worked for a terrorist organisation which preached a doctrine of hate. edit; also we did not elect a terrorist organistion to government.

Well didn't your Sinn Fein win government seats during the Irish conflict?

If I recall correctly, during the English rule of southern Ireland, english troops would regularly beat, kill and attack families "suspected" of aligning to the IRA. of the time.

Whether you agree or not, the Irish bred a doctrine of hate against the english, some may feel it was justified, but it was hate never the less.

PeakOutput wrote: »

im just saying that your comparison is stupid as is any comparison between the middle east right now and the troubles in ireland.

Hrmm, foreign force occupying territory and driving a nation of people into a small area of land where they are treated as lower class of human and constantly brutalized and attacked.

No, no comparison at all.

Hamas are terrorists no doubt and those in Palestine are engaging in terrorist activities. But that is only because these days the definition of terrorism tends to be "people who fight back, particularly people with dark skin who fight back".

When you have oppression, you will always have terrorist activity. The perspective is what counts. The Irish freedom fighters have ALWAYS been terrorists in practice, right back to before the Irish won independence, it just happens that the moral outlook tends to favor the Irish so that despite their terrorism, a justification is acknowledged.

Jack Bauer999

PeakOutput wrote: »

ok so how many do you believe are? and i feel you are being kind assuming women cannot be combatants but i accept those 76 are civilians for the sake of argument

eh thats a ridicolous comparison. are you saying the gardai worked for the ira?



silly point but, yeah, theres been many allegations of Garda collusion with the IRA. even our Government was invloved in smuggling weapons!! whcih wouls
have made a whole country a legitimate target. thankfully we dont live
beside Israel!

youcrazyjesus!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hamas are notorious for over-estimating the number of civilian casualties, see the "battle" of Jenin for an apposite example of that.

The UN has reported the 50% minimum figure, I've regularly heard the figure for civilian deaths given as 40% minimum.

knackerwacker

GuanYin wrote: »

When you have oppression, you will always have terrorist activity. The perspective is what counts. The Irish freedom fighters have ALWAYS been terrorists in practice, right back to before the Irish won independence, it just happens that the moral outlook tends to favor the Irish so that despite their terrorism, a justification is acknowledged.

The difference is that the Irish are native to Ireland, while the Arabs are not native to Israel. Yes, they have been there a while, but that logic fails when used as a justification for continuing English presence in the north.

Rob_l

Jack Bauer999 wrote: »

even our Government was invloved in smuggling weapons!! whcih wouls
have made a whole country a legitimate target. thankfully we dont live
beside Israel!

eh no we lived beside britain and well they
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0517/monaghan.html

Mr.Micro

the question has been asked numerous times and never answered. how many israeli citizens should israel have allowed to die before they entered gaza to stop the people killing them? answer the question please.

Israel has no right to invade another country, because thats what it is. What is the UN is there for, Israel should make use of it, but it does not want UN peacekeepers.

ok so firstly, of those 1000 dead 750 are non civilians

Says who? Since Israel does not allow the press or any independent body to verify your numbers cannot be taken as fact.

PeakOutput

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Eh what about the 400 women and children?

what about them? im not trying to argue they are not civilian casualties

these are accidental casualties of war

war is sometimes necessary

as i said already its unfortunate but thats the world we live in

Hamas are notorious for over-estimating the number of civilian casualties, see the "battle" of Jenin for an apposite example of that.

that was my point

Sources for these claims please?

any other link will be from a news organisation and you will say that they are only reporting hamas propoganda. i believe you or another hamas is an angel advocate(calling you that is only as ridiclous as calling me an israeli apologist) cited amnesty so here they are saying that hamas uses human shields

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818122.stm

PeakOutput

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Says who? Since Israel does not allow the press or any independent body to verify your numbers cannot be taken as fact.

the un has said it. the figures have been revised upwards to 50% now as far as i can tell which is very sad.

as you said there are no independant sources to verify the deaths in gaza. the press should obviously allowed into the city

[edit] GY

LordSutch

GuanYin wrote: »

The Irish freedom fighters have ALWAYS been terrorists in practice, right back to before the Irish won independence, it just happens that the moral outlook tends to favor the Irish so that despite their terrorism, a justification is acknowledged.

A moral justification despite their Terrorism is Acknowledged by who? Its fallacies like this that really annoy me & perpetuates the myth that terrorism pays off ~ it does not pay & it is NOT justified on any moral grounds, there is never a justification for Terrorism (NEVER), and no matter how many Car Bombs you plant, no matter how many people are Blown to little pieces, a moral justification of Irish Terrorism is NOT acknowledged :mad:

Dialogue is the way to go ................

GuanYin

Camelot wrote: »

What the H*** are you on about

A moral justification despite their Terrorism is Acknowledged by who? Its fallacies like this that really annoys me & perpetuates the myth that terrorism pays off ~ it does not pay & it is NOT justified on any moral grounds, there is never a justification for Terrorism (NEVER), and no matter how many Car Bombs you plant, no matter how many people are Blown to little pieces, a moral justification of Irish Terrorism is NOT acknowledged :mad:

The Irish Republic was formed on the basis of terrorism. Micheal Collin's 12 apostles were assassins who killed men in their homes in front of their friends and families.

Collins and the then IRA did not call this terrorism, rather urban guerilla warfare, but the fact of the matter is, his actions were designed to spread fear throughout the British occupying force (and the Irish who may inform on them).

However, Collins is celebrated now as a war hero. The victors usually write the history.

The latter terrorism in northern Ireland cannot be justified, nor am I trying to. I am merely stating that what the IRA did in the early 1900's to gain independence could and would be deemed terrorism by todays standards.

Dialogue is the way to go ................

Always. Peaceful demonstration has never failed.

PeakOutput

Camelot wrote: »

A moral justification despite their Terrorism is Acknowledged by who? Its fallacies like this that really annoy me & perpetuates the myth that terrorism pays off ~ it does not pay & it is NOT justified on any moral grounds, there is never a justification for Terrorism (NEVER), and no matter how many Car Bombs you plant, no matter how many people are Blown to little pieces, a moral justification of Irish Terrorism is NOT acknowledged :mad:

Dialogue is the way to go ................

this is stupidly off topic but im about to go watch kiefer sutherland educate me on middle east policies via the factual documentary programme '24' so


it is of huge importance that you distuinguish between the northern troubles and ireland gaining independance. the ira were terrorists as proven by their continued violence after issues were largely resolved and splinter groups who solely get off on violence. i do not believe that fighters like those in the gpo and that helped us gain our independance in the early 20th century were terrorsits. some will call it symantics but the actions of both sides speak for themselves

just like the action of hamas and the actions of israel speak for themselves. hamas deliberately targets civilians over and over again and now they seem to have persuaded the lebonese terrorists to chime back in and do the same.

israel deliberately targets terrorists, unfortunately this results in civilian deaths.

The Saint

knackerwacker wrote: »

The difference is that the Irish are native to Ireland, while the Arabs are not native to Israel. Yes, they have been there a while, but that logic fails when used as a justification for continuing English presence in the north.

I suggest you go back to the start of the thread and begin reading. You have things reversed. The Arabs of the indignous population, the vast majority Jews are second or third generation immigrants.