1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

quad_red

uprising wrote: »

Earlier in this thread one of the experts laughed at a poster for stating that cluster bombs were used, they were and ARE used, incendary cluster bombs with a white phosphorous filling to burn to the bone and beyond.

Really? Where are you getting this from? I didn't even know WP based cluster munitions existed.

uprising

quad_red wrote: »

Really? Where are you getting this from? I didn't even know WP based cluster munitions existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)


see this pic below, its a cluster munition being used in Gaza, troops were miles away

BlaasForRafa

paulaa wrote: »

Of course PR is important. If their image is one of brutal aggressors they lose both votes internally and the good will of their sugar daddy, the US.
They have even resorted to this to spread their propaganda to justify this "war" in Gaza


"Hasbara spam alert
With Israel's foreign ministry organising volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israeli comments, Propaganda 2.0 is here


The hasbara brigade strikes again! You always hear about Israeli attempts at media manipulation. Everyone knows it's going on but usually the process happens through cyber insurgents like those involved with Giyus (and its media monitoring software, Megaphone). Now, we know that the Israeli foreign ministry itself is orchestrating propaganda efforts designed to flood news websites with pro-Israel arguments and information."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media

Hmmmm a join date of Nov 2005 yet only 17 posts and most of them are on this thread spewing out anti-israeli propoganda and lies.

and of course Israel uses the blogosphere, its a counter to Irans legion of state-sanctioned bloggers

BlaasForRafa

uprising wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)


see this pic below, its a cluster munition being used in Gaza, troops were miles away

not this red herring argument again. They are not being used as incendiaries, they are being used as smoke to cover tank and troop movements. end of.

uprising

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

not this red herring argument again. They are not being used as incendiaries, they are being used as smoke to cover tank and troop movements. end of.

GO BACK through this thread, these pics were posted and discussed way back, long before troops entered, END OF.

BlaasForRafa

uprising wrote: »

GO BACK through this thread, these pics were posted and discussed way back, long before troops entered, END OF.

incorrect. Israel started using artillery fired wp when the incursion started and immediately before, not LONG before troops entered. You're obviously anti-israeli but you should at least have some respect for the facts in the midst of your propoganda.

paulaa

uprising wrote: »

Earlier in this thread one of the experts laughed at a poster for stating that cluster bombs were used, they were and ARE used, incendary cluster bombs with a white phosphorous filling to burn to the bone and beyond.
And what was the expert reason behind smoke screens?, for what?, troops were still beyond the border and I presume smoke screens are supposed to block view of "terrorists" so they cant see invading forces and wouldnt these smoke screens hamper the pilots view to pinpoint "TERRORISTS".
The only reason W.P. has been rained down on Gaza is to burn into whoever and whatever it lands on, its a warcrime.
Israel are warcriminals always have been, always will be.
Paulaa thanks for bringing a new perspective here.

You're welcome, I didn't see this thread or I would have contributed sooner.

WP has been used in Gaza from the beginning of this operation. On the 2nd day questions were being asked in sections of the media. Both Norwegian doctors Mads Gilbert and Erik Fosse, working in a hospital in Gaza, have confirmed that a lot of the injuries they are seeing are burns consistent with WP. Some people are coming in with burns so deep the bones are exposed. WP particles stick to the skin and anything else it falls on and are a bit like burning plastic. Seemingly in 90% of cases the victims go on to get cancer caused by the chemicals.

uprising

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

incorrect. Israel started using artillery fired wp when the incursion started and immediately before, not LONG before troops entered. You're obviously anti-israeli but you should at least have some respect for the facts in the midst of your propoganda.

Will you please look at the facts as your obviosly pro-israeli, your supporting a bunch of mass murdering b&stards.
Your the one consumed by propaganda and a distributer of the same crap, your BS doesnt wash here.

paulaa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hmmmm a join date of Nov 2005 yet only 17 posts and most of them are on this thread spewing out anti-israeli propoganda and lies.

and of course Israel uses the blogosphere, its a counter to Irans legion of state-sanctioned bloggers

Thanks for your interest in my posting history, I'm touched you care enough to check.
You say I "spew out anti-israeli propoganda and lies. " Then you agree with me about the Hasbara.
Make up your mind

At least I can back up most of my arguments, particularly about subjects I feel strongly about. I don't go by the politburo of any country .We're not all taken in by the propaganda . Some of us have seen first hand, on the ground, the devastation and humiliation that has been meted out to the people of Palestine for the last 20 years.

Even some rabbis, lawyers and the ordinary Jewish people in Israel are against what is being done in their name and are protesting against this. That's not shown on IET or Channel 23 in Israel.
A Jewish friend of mine in Tel Aviv told me a few days ago on Skype that only for her access to satellite TV she would never know the half of what is going on in Gaza.

uprising

paulaa wrote: »

Thanks for your interest in my posting history, I'm touched you care enough to check.
You say I "spew out anti-israeli propoganda and lies.

At least I can back up most of my arguments

Even some rabbis, lawyers and the ordinary Jewish people in Israel are against what is being done in their name and are protesting against this.

http://december18th.org/

These couragous young Israeli's are making a stand against what their leaders inflict on them and are going to prison for doing so.

BlaasForRafa

uprising wrote: »

http://december18th.org/

These couragous young Israeli's are making a stand against what their leaders inflict on them and are going to prison for doing so.

Courageous? Cowards more like.

The courageous are the ones in gaza fighting hamas.

Darragh29

The IDF have set the UN headquarters on fire now. Just when you think they couldn't be any more scum like in their behaviour, they surprise yet again...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhsneygbojcw/

The Saint

The UN General Assembly are discussing this on Al Jazeera now. It's funny, the Israeli representative is trying to have the session cancelled citing a clause in the 2004 International Court of Justice. This ruling stated that Isreali settlements are illegal under international law. Israel rejected the legitimacy of this ruling and is now trying to invoke it to halt the session. I nearly pissed myself laughing at the hypocrisy.

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hmmmm a join date of Nov 2005 yet only 17 posts and most of them are on this thread spewing out anti-israeli propoganda and lies.

and of course Israel uses the blogosphere, its a counter to Irans legion of state-sanctioned bloggers

Do you have any idea how you sound?

I particularly liked your 'end of' statement in response to reports on the use on White Phosphorus munitions. 'End of'. As if it wasn't an enormously contested issue, with concerns emanating even from within Israel.

'End of'. That's it - no more debate allowed. Any reports indicating that WP is being used as more than smoke cover are anti-Israel lies. And, I'm sure, if WP related injuries are reported from a source you will accept (which, let's face it, at this point appears to be the IDF and the Israeli government) then they are merely the result of civilians being mutilated because Hamas was in the 'vicinity' at the time. And anyway, it's all Hamas' fault anyway.

So there. etc. etc.

You have your own impenetrable, self serving logic going on there mate.

<this post will not be thanked by Irish Rail>

Darragh29

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Courageous? Cowards more like.

The courageous are the ones in gaza fighting hamas.

The depth of understanding and thought that these people possess is clearly beyond you. Relax, we are not all born the same.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Courageous? Cowards more like.

I would beg to differ. Standing up for ones beliefs and going to prison for them are incredibly brave.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The courageous are the ones in gaza fighting hamas.

Perhaps. However, with all the atrocties that have been highlighted in this thread, I would not use that word.

The IDF have systematically destroyed the civilian infrastructure there, which is appaling.

paulaa

uprising wrote: »

http://december18th.org/

These couragous young Israeli's are making a stand against what their leaders inflict on them and are going to prison for doing so.

Thanks uprising, I haven't seen that before. There are many moderate people in Israel but as my friend says their opinions are ignored by the more extreme factions. Olmert was in danger of losing his seat in the next elections as many of the moderates view him as corrupt and an arrogant war monger who will only bring more trouble to Israel and Jewish people living abroad.

Serenity Now!

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

not this red herring argument again. They are not being used as incendiaries, they are being used as smoke to cover tank and troop movements. end of.

Pity some of you do not use both eyes.

White Phosphorous' use in civilian areas is as deemed illegal internationally as Hamas' setting up firebases in civilian areas. You excuse the IDF for its use and others here excuse anything Hamas does.

See? Not a lot of difference between all hypocrites and monocular fairweather internet forum 'experts' at all. :rolleyes:

munchester29

Seems Hamas is now firing WP into Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055472.html

di11on

Man,

For all those posting nonsense about use of white phosphorous munitions (particularly WP "cluster bombs") read this very good Wikipedia article on it. You will see a WWII image of a WP munition exploding over a ship which looks similar to the images from Gaza. Cluster munitions didn't exist in 1945. The multiple trails you see are the phosphorous reacting with the water vapour in the air. WP is commonly used to generate tactical smoke screens to hide movements from the enemy. If you're into that sort of thing, there's an interesting piece on the chemistry behind why it is very effective as a smoke generation agent.

As mentioned already, the tactical use of WP for creation of smoke screens and for illuminating targets is perfectly legal.

Secondly, I would like to ask that those who contend Israel is intentionally using WP munitions in an anti-personnel role... why would they do that? Considering the media war is almost as important as the military campaign... why would they use munitions illegally like this - what advantage, military or otherwise, would it have?

In my opinion those that honestly think it is being used in an anti personnel capacity are not being reasonable.

uprising

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Courageous? Cowards more like.

The courageous are the ones in gaza fighting hamas.

Your a bit mixed up, cowards are up in the sky with state of the art killing machinery unleashing hell on earth for a terrified deprived people.
you have a deranged view of the world.

Darragh29

The Saint wrote: »

The UN General Assembly are discussing this on Al Jazeera now. It's funny, the Israeli representative is trying to have the session cancelled citing a clause in the 2004 International Court of Justice. This ruling stated that Isreali settlements are illegal under international law. Israel rejected the legitimacy of this ruling and is now trying to invloke it to halt the session. I nearly pissed myself laughing at the hypocrisy.

Have to got a link to that site??? I'd love to see it....

Serenity Now!

paulaa wrote: »

Thanks uprising, I haven't seen that before. There are many moderate people in Israel but as my friend says their opinions are ignored by the more extreme factions. Olmert was in danger of losing his seat in the next elections as many of the moderates view him as corrupt and an arrogant war monger who will only bring more trouble to Israel and Jewish people living abroad.

Having lived there before I can tell you that the electorate or moderate side of Israel is not like that.

In power is an Anyone-But-Likud Coalition which comprises almost every area of Israeli political outlook you can think of.

OR

the Secular but hardline Likud. No introduction needed methinks.

Like this country, politicians will sell their soul just to get in government and betray all of their principals just as the left/moderates have done.

DangerMouse27

Hamas is disgusting...
For years they have randomly sent missile attacks over to Israel..not aimed, just shoulder mounted grenade launchers sent up and back down again to the Israelis.For Israel to have done nothing would be worse and whats wrong with trying to eradicate Hamas??? zilch,nothing,nada...we do not live in this all loving,lets get along world.There is evil out there, even among us and sometimes just sometimes we must take a big stick to that evil.
The rest of the casualties...yes this is bad but i advise a cautionary tale...during the last Iraq invasion when US guided bombs would hit targets...Iraqi MILITARY would elaborate and say it was a school,hospital,medical centre.
We must wait for all media to be allowed in before making sweeping war criminal statements like earlier

uprising

di11on wrote: »

Man,

As mentioned already, the tactical use of WP for creation of smoke screens and for illuminating targets is perfectly legal.

Secondly, I would like to ask that those who contend Israel is intentionally using WP munitions in an anti-personnel role... why would they do that? Considering the media war is almost as important as the military campaign... why would they use munitions illegally like this - what advantage, military or otherwise, would it have?

In my opinion those that honestly think it is being used in an anti personnel capacity are not being reasonable.

You still really think Israel give a sh1t about media war, actually maybe they do, they bombed the media building in Gaza

quad_red

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Courageous? Cowards more like.

The courageous are the ones in gaza fighting hamas.

I find that an extreme opinion to make on those who espouse peace.

In my opinion it takes enormous personal courage to be a conscientious objector, in any conflict situation.

paulaa

munchester29 wrote: »

Seems Hamas is now firing WP into Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055472.html

I have my doubts that Hammas have access to WP. According to the IDF they have Hammas surrounded in the middle of Gaza city, where did they get it I wonder
However, if they have I would condemn their use of it as strongly as I do the Israelis

quad_red

munchester29 wrote: »

Seems Hamas is now firing WP into Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055472.html

I would have my doubts about that link...

However, if it is true, then it should be condemned unreservedly.

Munchester - do you think the large scale use of WP in a civilian area is acceptable? Is it acceptable to inflict terrible civilian casualties if they are merely collateral damage in the process of firing WP munitions to create smoke cover?

concussion

The Saint wrote: »

I'm aware of this. I'm asking since the UN HQ was hit by WP shells; does that mean its being used as a weapon as opposed to the shells bursting in the air creating a smokescreen like we've seen already.

Do you mean were the shells set to detonate on impact rather than in the air? If so, they would be much less effective than a regular high explosive shell. The WP shells being used have a small charge which is initiated by a timer. When this detonates, the WP cannister is pushed out of the carrier (shell) itself. 100ms later a smaller charge (about 20 grams worth) blows off the casing of the cannister and the WP is dispersed. When done at altitude the WP disperses as it falls and forms a large smoke screen. If the projectile was set to explode on impact the cannister would probably not even separate from the carrier. If it did, there is only a minute charge to blow the casing off (for comparison, a hand grenade has 150-200 g of explosive). All you would be left with would be a tighly concentrated pile of WP.

uprising wrote: »

Earlier in this thread one of the experts laughed at a poster for stating that cluster bombs were used, they were and ARE used, incendary cluster bombs with a white phosphorous filling to burn to the bone and beyond

Although it's been noted here already, I'll reiterate it. A cluster bomb is a device which releases smaller explosive devices. This is obviously not a cluster munition. The Convention on Cluster Munitions can be found online and details exactly what is and isn't a cluster munition.

paulaa wrote: »

Seemingly in 90% of cases the victims go on to get cancer caused by the chemicals.

Out of interest, where did this figure come from?



Regarding the Times 'scoop' of WP photos, there's a video on youtube filmed by IDF troops showing those WP shells stacked and ready to be fired (fuses attached)

The Saint

Darragh29 wrote: »

Have to got a link to that site??? I'd love to see it....

Watching it on TV, sorry. The president of the GA has been talking for ages.